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Sex-work and Harmful Language - Printable Version

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RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - V'aleera - 11-06-2015

(11-06-2015, 04:05 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: Yes, and the vast majority.

VAST

View prostitute as a non offensive descriptor.

I never contested this. I was addressing the rationale presented in the post I cited, which asserted that technical definition alone determines the usability of a term.

(11-06-2015, 04:06 AM)Oli! Wrote: 1.) One group of people does not mind a word. Another group does. The group that does mind the word is saying that it should never be said to anyone, ever. Is this an invalidation of the other group's viewpoint?

This position has not been asserted within this thread. Umi herself spoke in support of using whatever words you like when speaking with someone whom you know is fine with the words you use.

RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Oli! - 11-06-2015

(11-06-2015, 02:45 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 02:41 AM)Pastry Army Wrote: While I agree with the shared sentiment that not being able to discuss something in a Discussion thread comes off as a bit silly, I will stamp my opinion on this thread. Because I am simply that way on things. 

It is interesting to be able to see the view point of someone who is actually in the field open up and share what, to them and others at large, are considered derogatory and insulting vocabulary to their particular field of choice.

The thing is, basing your understanding of an entire field of work off of one person's opinion is...probably unwise.  I have been friends for years with a lovely woman who has been a phone sex operator for quite some time (and has done cam shows and similar), and I asked her about this very subject a few days back.  Her response?  "I don't consider it a slur."

But I also would think that the word "prostitute" wouldn't fit her job description, anyway.  And I'm not sure that she would describe herself as a sex worker, and I'm sure that there's at least someone out there who would consider being called a "sex worker" derogatory.

In my state, "prostitute" is literally a job title.  It isn't used as a slur, it's simply a descriptive title for someone who literally sells physical sex for money.  The term that appears in our legal code?  "Prostitute."  But I've never seen it used as a slur against a person.  Truth be told, the word has too many syllables to be really effective as a slur when you're raging at someone.  I've heard slut, whore, ho, hooker, and other, much less printable words used.  But "prostitute"?  No.  That's a legal term, and that's what it's referred to in courts.


(11-06-2015, 04:09 AM)V Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 04:06 AM)Oli! Wrote: 1.) One group of people does not mind a word. Another group does. The group that does mind the word is saying that it should never be said to anyone, ever. Is this an invalidation of the other group's viewpoint?

This position has not been asserted within this thread. Umi herself spoke in support of using whatever words you like when speaking with someone whom you know is fine with the words you use.


It has.

On the very first page, even.

RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Lydia Lightfoot - 11-06-2015

When being PC is definitely appropriate:

If the individual's condition which serves as the topic is one which the individual is powerless to change, e.g. born with, permanent unwilling alteration, etc.

When being PC is probably inappropriate:

If the individual's condition is one which is completely voluntary by them, or if a permanent change was one made by elective choice and not medical necessity.

Some people don't like your job, OP. A lot of people don't like your line of work. I'm sure you're totally aware of that. I'm sure you were totally aware of that when you started in that line of work, too. Bummer for you. Do something else for work if you don't like it? You're not entitled to claim social injustice for something that you're choosing. Sorry.

RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - McBeefâ„¢ - 11-06-2015

(11-06-2015, 04:08 AM)Verad Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 04:05 AM)McBeef™ Wrote: Yes, and the vast majority. 

VAST

View prostitute as a non offensive descriptor. For many, it's the only non offensive way to describe someone who has sex for money that they know. 

Thus, my argument from the start that this is not a slur. Because almost no one views or understands it as such.

And now they know another one. Is this one less effective somehow? Or are we appealing to linguistic tradition?
It's not the education I disagree with, and I view "sex worker" as a very good umbrella term. 

I also agree that "prostitute" is not that good of a word for describing those who have sex for money, as I have said, and as your post so eloquently states, it is a general term for any who sell themselves and their talents for base profit. 

However!

I do not think, as the OP of this thread suggests, that is is a slur, or generally used with ill intent. I do think Pkthunda has the right to have herself referred to with whatever words she wants, and I'd never call someone a word or phrase they find offensive.

I also do not think the opinion of a small minority is enough to suddenly make a word universally offensive. So while I won't call anyone who ascribes to the opinion that "Prostitute" is offensive, a prostitute, I also won't view the word as a slur, and will continue to use it when I feel it is the most appropriate word to use in a situation.

RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - LiadansWhisper - 11-06-2015

(11-06-2015, 04:08 AM)Verad Wrote: And now they know another one. Is this one less effective somehow? Or are we appealing to linguistic tradition?

I can't recall if this part of the conversation took place in this thread or on skype, but Nat said earlier that "sex worker" is an excellent umbrella term (even if some would object to being under the "same umbrella" with other subsets of it), but it doesn't really work (no pun intended) for the subsets. Some people might not even consider themselves "sex workers" if they don't engage in actual sex. Others might object because they feel it places them in the same strata as prostitutes (who, yes, are seen by society as being "less than" because they are perceived to sell physical sex, and also, while phone sex, cam sex, etc, are legal, prostitution is not).

However, as I pointed out in a previous post, I know other people in the industry, at least one of whom is also a phone sex operator, and she honestly found the entire thing laughable when I spoke to her about it. So why should I put Umi's opinion on the subject above that of my friend of over a decade?

I understand that it offends Umi, and that's fine. I don't think it would ever come up in casual conversation. But I'm not going to change my nomenclature based on one person's demand on the internet. With all due respect, she does not represent the industry as a whole, nor do the five blogs she linked.

RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - McBeefâ„¢ - 11-06-2015

(11-06-2015, 04:15 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: Some people don't like your job, OP. A lot of people don't like your line of work. I'm sure you're totally aware of that. I'm sure you were totally aware of that when you started in that line of work, too. Bummer for you. Do something else for work if you don't like it? You're not entitled to claim social injustice for something that you're choosing. Sorry.

As Marx and Engels say, the definition of being a "Worker" is the inability to refuse work. 

That a worker must accept the best work they can find, or perish. 

I would not judge anyone too harshly for their line of work, friend. If they could find a better paying/safer job, they'd probably do it. However life is not always so kind, and there are always bills to be paid.

RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Verad - 11-06-2015

(11-06-2015, 04:15 AM)undefined Wrote: When being PC is probably inappropriate:

If the individual's condition is one which is completely voluntary by them, or if a permanent change was one made by elective choice and not medical necessity.

Some people don't like your job, OP. A lot of people don't like your line of work. I'm sure you're totally aware of that. I'm sure you were totally aware of that when you started in that line of work, too. Bummer for you. Do something else for work if you don't like it? You're not entitled to claim social injustice for something that you're choosing. Sorry.

Or, alternatively, make more people like your line of work, especially if you actually like it. This is also a choice, and a difficult one to be sure, but a worthwhile one if you're in a field in which you see value.

Especially when the injustice is when people don't just "dislike" that line of work, it's when they criminalize, marginalize, and harm the members of that line of work out of proportion for the people who demand that line of work.

RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Verad - 11-06-2015

(11-06-2015, 04:18 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: However, as I pointed out in a previous post, I know other people in the industry, at least one of whom is also a phone sex operator, and she honestly found the entire thing laughable when I spoke to her about it.  So why should I put Umi's opinion on the subject above that of my friend of over a decade?

Because that says your assessment of the argument is based on longevity and how much you like the person making it. We're all prone to that, but we at least maintain the polite fiction that we view things based more on evidence than anecdote.

As for who represents the industry, that's the bugger of it - it's hard to represent the industry because the industry is silenced for fear of retribution from legal authority.

Assessing the material conditions and attitudes of sex workers* is more sociology than my own field, but if you would like a larger picture of the issue, then I will find what I can.

*Making a distinction here between sex workers and victims of sex trafficking because trafficking is a complicated and weird term, and even in the world of labor trafficking, sex workers are often blamed as somehow complicit. Why this doesn't happen to agricultural laborers for trafficked farm workers is beyond me.

RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Lydia Lightfoot - 11-06-2015

(11-06-2015, 04:19 AM)McBeef™ Wrote: As Marx and Engels say, the definition of being a "Worker" is the inability to refuse work. 

That a worker must accept the best work they can find, or perish. 

I would not judge anyone too harshly for their line of work, friend. If they could find a better paying/safer job, they'd probably do it. However life is not always so kind.

I'm unclear as to where I judged her line of work. I'm pretty sure I judged her for claiming her choice of work is a justification to claim social injustice is occurring towards her. 

If the guy at Starbucks wants to get butthurt because some people don't call him "barista" and instead refer to him as "coffee dude", that's not social injustice either and also doesn't warrant a PC crusade.

RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - LiadansWhisper - 11-06-2015

(11-06-2015, 04:23 AM)Verad Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 04:18 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: However, as I pointed out in a previous post, I know other people in the industry, at least one of whom is also a phone sex operator, and she honestly found the entire thing laughable when I spoke to her about it.  So why should I put Umi's opinion on the subject above that of my friend of over a decade?

Because that says your assessment of the argument is based on longevity and how much you like the person making it. We're all prone to that, but we at least maintain the polite fiction that we view things based more on evidence than anecdote.

As for who represents the industry, that's the bugger of it - it's hard to represent the industry because the industry is silenced for fear of retribution from legal authority.

Assessing the material conditions and attitudes of sex workers is more sociology than my own field, but if you would like a larger picture of the issue, then I will find what I can.

This doesn't really answer my question, however.

Why is Umi's opinion more accurate and important than that of my friend, who works in the same industry and even performs the same job that Umi performs? Why does one person's opinion on the matter hold more weight than the other?

Here's the thing - if you want to change the nomenclature, or change society in general, y'all gonna have to organize. Until you do, the only thing a thread like this represents is the opinions of individuals. And while individuals are absolutely welcome to their opinions, it is disingenuous to claim or purport or allow others to believe that those opinions represent more than the feelings of an individual. Because they don't.

RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Faye - 11-06-2015

(11-06-2015, 04:15 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: When being PC is definitely appropriate:

If the individual's condition which serves as the topic is one which the individual is powerless to change, e.g. born with, permanent unwilling alteration, etc.

When being PC is probably inappropriate:

If the individual's condition is one which is completely voluntary by them, or if a permanent change was one made by elective choice and not medical necessity.

Some people don't like your job, OP. A lot of people don't like your line of work. I'm sure you're totally aware of that. I'm sure you were totally aware of that when you started in that line of work, too. Bummer for you. Do something else for work if you don't like it? You're not entitled to claim social injustice for something that you're choosing. Sorry.

Just because someone has chosen some sort of status, career, or other attribute rather than being born/forced into it doesn't mean political correctness goes out the window, especially when "political correctness" these days pretty much just means "not being an asshole."

These's no good reason for anyone to have a strong disdain against sex workers as a whole. The OP doesn't just have to accept a negative stigma around her career or find a new line of work. There were times when female doctors were a thing of disdain. Should we have told them to deal with it or find a new career?

(Though, it's a moot point, because calling a prostitute a prostitute is politically correct regardless and not indicative of any stigma. That's not to say that there isn't a stigma, just that the word "prostitute" is in no way a part of it or a symptom of it. Sorry, OP.)

RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - McBeefâ„¢ - 11-06-2015

(11-06-2015, 04:24 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 04:19 AM)McBeef™ Wrote: As Marx and Engels say, the definition of being a "Worker" is the inability to refuse work. 

That a worker must accept the best work they can find, or perish. 

I would not judge anyone too harshly for their line of work, friend. If they could find a better paying/safer job, they'd probably do it. However life is not always so kind.

I'm unclear as to where I judged her line of work. I'm pretty sure I judged her for claiming her choice of work is a justification to claim social injustice is occurring towards her. 

If the guy at Starbucks wants to get butthurt because some people don't call him "barista" and instead refer to him as "coffee dude", that's not social injustice either and also doesn't warrant a PC crusade.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, Barista's don't get murdered, trafficked, and raped at much higher rates than the populace at large.

I don't agree with parts of the 'Crusade' either, but your comparison is disingenuous.

RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Verad - 11-06-2015

(11-06-2015, 04:24 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: I'm unclear as to where I judged her line of work. I'm pretty sure I judged her for claiming her choice of work is a justification to claim social injustice is occurring towards her. 

If the guy at Starbucks wants to get butthurt because some people don't call him "barista" and instead refer to him as "coffee dude", that's not social injustice either and also doesn't warrant a PC crusade.

You ever see a guy at Starbucks get the shit beaten out of him for making a latte wrong, and then the cops at best don't pursue charges because he was asking for it, working in that job, or, at worse, arrest him instead?

If you did, god damn, you have some hardcore coffee shops.

RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Berrod Armstrong - 11-06-2015

As a former sex worker and someone who has been called the n word more times than I can count, this thread boggles my mind. OP, I appreciate where you're coming from, and thank you for trying to educate people. 

Just...I honestly don't feel the same way about those words, they're very 'whatever'. They were always 'whatever'. When I got into the business, I accepted that some of those words would be used against me, and through that, I armored myself to make sure they had no power. I didn't have any 'community' to stand with, it was just me and my boss. That language would only be harmful to me if I let it harm me (and when some dude is delighting in calling you a 'Big d**k n*****r w***e' and you gotta keep it up, yeah...).

It's understandable if you find the words harmful, but using the group of sex workers you know to speak for all of us is uh -- I dunno it puts me off a little. 

However! Take my words with a grain of salt, since I did it more as an outlet for my own condition than to make a living. Apparently that plus being male severely decreases the value of my opinion on the matter, according to the angry first world internet.

Awareness is good though, and I enjoyed reading most of your post.

RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Verad - 11-06-2015

(11-06-2015, 04:26 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 04:23 AM)Verad Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 04:18 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: However, as I pointed out in a previous post, I know other people in the industry, at least one of whom is also a phone sex operator, and she honestly found the entire thing laughable when I spoke to her about it.  So why should I put Umi's opinion on the subject above that of my friend of over a decade?

Because that says your assessment of the argument is based on longevity and how much you like the person making it. We're all prone to that, but we at least maintain the polite fiction that we view things based more on evidence than anecdote.

As for who represents the industry, that's the bugger of it - it's hard to represent the industry because the industry is silenced for fear of retribution from legal authority.

Assessing the material conditions and attitudes of sex workers is more sociology than my own field, but if you would like a larger picture of the issue, then I will find what I can.

This doesn't really answer my question, however.

Why is Umi's opinion more accurate and important than that of my friend, who works in the same industry and even performs the same job that Umi performs?  Why does one person's opinion on the matter hold more weight than the other?

Here's the thing - if you want to change the nomenclature, or change society in general, y'all gonna have to organize.  Until you do, the only thing a thread like this represents is the opinions of individuals.  And while individuals are absolutely welcome to their opinions, it is disingenuous to claim or purport or allow others to believe that those opinions represent more than the feelings of an individual.  Because they don't.

They can, and do, and have. That they are not advocating here en masse does not say that somehow sex worker rights groups are scattered and leaderless, roaming the land in anarchic tribes. Rather, not many of them are also RPers in FF14.

As for accuracy, I don't know how do you measure credibility? What is the standard of evidence that would say "Okay, my friend of ten years is wrong"?