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+--- Thread: So this is a thing now? (/showthread.php?tid=9261)
RE: So this is a thing now? - Iex - 12-16-2014
To be fair, you can never apply real world economics to an MMO market board.
Real world Economics rely on a couple key factors that do not exist in a digital game. The biggest of which is finite resources. Some resources are rarer drops in the game, but in reality are also infinite. The only finite matter in an MMO market is time. There are only so many hours in the day; so the real value of an item is how much people believe the time to gather it was worth in gil. Thus a 'market value' of an item will always crash and spike depending on who is selling and how lazy folks are. (aka how much they are willing to spend for another person's time) If one person values their time higher than another person, naturally they will be undercut and because there is only a max of 100 (if you are paying for extra retainers) or 40 for the more average player selling slots, you must make a decision of what to sell at else you have 'dead' slots. Clinging to an artificial thought of what 'something should be worth' will only result in you not selling. You have to ride the market of time value as it crashes and as it rises.
When patches are released, things sell far higher because more people are willing to be 'lazy' to finish new items, content. The prime example of this is the Belah'dian Silver, which on patch day was selling for 200-400k depending on quality, and now it sells for 20k. Another example was people selling Dungeon runs for Rogues/Ninjas folks were buying the time of other people the market was good at first with the more impatient people willing to pay 50-70k a pop, but it quickly crashed as the more patient people refused to pay absurd prices.
However, looping back to the housing topic, the housing issue is sort of an example of real world economics. The resource being traded is finite and the demand is high. The problem comes from, the price is not in control of the seller outside of the reservation fee. The price resets to full price 5-80 million regardless as to what would be considered a market price. The seller gets zero gil from that, which is where the real world similarities end. Money gain in this game is based off infinite resources, but the product being purchased is a money sink, meaning it goes down the drain. If someone could 'transfer' ownership of a house we could have an actual... housing market... but at the same time it would likely be taken over by Real-estate moguls who would ruin it anyways.
As for attempts to fix 'undercutting' markets, it actually only works partway. If someone clicks the history tab they will see a bunch of something selling at a cheaper price and maybe assume that is the 'correct' price. Also... you just bought their time, so they will sell it again at that price because it sold.
Just my 2 cents.
RE: So this is a thing now? - C'kayah Polaali - 12-16-2014
My apologies for causing rancor. Please go back to your regular discussions.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Melkire - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 01:52 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:(12-16-2014, 01:50 PM)Melkire Wrote: Arguing? I thought we were having a discussion. o_O
Does every thread have to be a debate where two parties exchange volleys of arguments across a demarcated line?
YES. IDIOT.
WELL EXCUUUUUUUUUUUSE ME, PRINCESS!
(12-16-2014, 01:53 PM)C Wrote: I think she's using the term "argument" in this manner, and I agree with her use of it.
I might have gotten the wrong impression from her post. It sounded like, "okay so you all agree with each other so why is this thread even still going LET'S CLOSE IT BECAUSE DISCUSSIONS ARE BAD. DEBATES ONLY, NO COMRADERY, FINAL DESTINATION."
RE: So this is a thing now? - Berrod Armstrong - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 01:42 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote:Be that as it may, what people do with their housing plots, and what other people do with their money is none of our business.Â(12-15-2014, 04:21 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: Back in beta they talked about letting people sell their property. I honestly wonder what made them change their mind on that.
In game economics. If players buy and sell things to NPCs, that is money leaving the game, aka a money sink. The more money sinks in the game, the less horrifying currency inflation becomes. If I had to guess, selling between players is probably disallowed due to the potential horrific levels of inflation. This thread is kinda proving that would happen anyway. Since there are very few land spaces and extremely high demand, players would be selling even small houses for outrageous prices, far more than the current 5 million standard.
It's probably actually cheaper in the long run to not allow player to play house selling.
-------------------------------
Alright, as someone who has mostly just been observing this thread, I would like to hop in and say that I don't understand what you guys are arguing about. I see a lot of regulars in here, pretty much all of you all typically make reasonable and level-headed posts. I guess you guys don't realize it but it sounds like you all pretty much agree with each other.
Ckayah is saying that he agrees that there is nothing wrong with people following the path of economics but is expressing regret in that he wishes the community would be charitable. I think we can all agree that charity and generosity is a good thing we might like to see more of. But we also understand that it is not always practical and that choosing not to be charitable doesn't make you a bad person.
Charity is never required. I certainly don't think Ckayah is saying that. There are, however, some hidden benefits to being charitable that I don't think have been brought up or considered yet in this thread. The honest truth is that every time you relinquish your property to a non-RPer, you are creating less spaces for other RPers. It is true that we are not an official RP server and we co-exist with non-RPers who may also be our friends. But I think it is worth considering that we are a niche that is dependent on others in our community to survive. The more diluted we become, the less cohesive our community becomes.
To give a plot up is a charitable act, one that has strong parallels with how charity works in real life. We aren't obligated to donate to wikipedia, or red cross, or any other organization. We aren't required to recycle or use resuable bags. We aren't required to adopt children as opposed to passing down our own genetics whenever we start a family. Not doing these things doesn't make you a bad person. However, somewhere somebody is donated to wikipedia to help keep it running, someone is seriously choosing to recycle and cut down on the world's waste, someone is opting to adopt a child that needs a home instead of contributing to a now over-populated world. These organizations and people depend on others willing to donate for their survival.
Every time someone holds a server event, they are contributing the community of this server, every time someone decides to RP with a stranger instead of going to their guilds or friends they are contributing to the community, and yes, every time someone relinquishes a plot for someone else, they are also contributing to that community.
We're all here to have fun. You need to do what is best for you. But I think we should also stop to appreciate the people who make sacrifices for the betterment of others. No one requires you to be charitable but when you do, you are helping Balmung become a better place.
Whatever charity people decide to offer and to who is none of our business.Â
Whoever they relinquish or sell to is none of our business.
The choices of people in the community to contribute, and by what means they choose to contribute is none of our business.Â
It is not our place to set any standard, precedent or expectation as to what we think people should do with their time and gil within the bounds of the ToU.
It is not our place to ascribe such actions and transactions, as undertaken by individuals, to the RPC community -- whether the individuals are part of the RPC community or not.
But we CAN say what we think about it!
RE: So this is a thing now? - Gegenji - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 02:05 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: But we CAN say what we think about it!
What I think about it:
![[Image: april_2_%20%28131%29__large.jpg]](http://canitbesaturdaynow.com/images/fpics/728/april_2_%20%28131%29__large.jpg)
(Insert obligatory "It stinks!")
RE: So this is a thing now? - Devereau - 12-16-2014
I think if you want to see some awful shitty economics, look at the buyer list for always needed seal items, like coke or potash. Now that's some shit, unless you have a lot of money to do the same thing.Â
Though, on the housing thing, I think the time explanation delved more into my point. Time is a HUGE factor in this equation due to the implementation on SE's part.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Flickering Ember - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 02:05 PM)Melkire Wrote: I might have gotten the wrong impression from her post. It sounded like, "okay so you all agree with each other so why is this thread even still going LET'S CLOSE IT BECAUSE DISCUSSIONS ARE BAD. DEBATES ONLY, NO COMRADERY, FINAL DESTINATION."
Well, everything has to come to an end eventually. Though I definitely think there is merit in discussing different view points. I enjoy reading them as well. I used the word 'argue' because it is a little more intense than 'discussion' and some of the word choices from page 5 were sounding heated in comparison to the earlier posts of the thread. From my point of view, it looks like everyone is pretty much in agreement but one could get an impression that folks here disagree due to their differences in word choice and tone.
That said, my original post was brief because I don't think there is much to discuss here anyway. So, actually, I suppose you are half right. This:
Quote:Is it okay to sell the right to purchase a plot of land? Yes, supply and demand. Basic economics.
Should everyone be required to donate a plot to another RPer? No, but if you do, that's pretty cool of you.
...could basically sum up the entire thread, including Ckayah's posts. The difference is, Ckayah is concerned about communal identity to which I have a proposal for. Which leads me to...
(12-16-2014, 02:05 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Be that as it may, what people do with their housing plots, and what other people do with their money is none of our business.Â
Whatever charity people decide to offer and to who is none of our business.Â
Whoever they relinquish or sell to is none of our business.
The choices of people in the community to contribute, and by what means they choose to contribute is none of our business.Â
It is not our place to set any standard, precedent or expectation as to what we think people should do with their time and gil within the bounds of the ToU.
It is not our place to ascribe such actions and transactions, as undertaken by individuals, to the RPC community -- whether the individuals are part of the RPC community or not.
But we CAN say what we think about it!
Definitely agree and I can see why folks might be flustered about this thread, as it can be viewed as calling people out for not being charitable. I think if we focus on what nice things people are doing and not what they aren't doing then we can get some better results on improving the community.
Giving a shout out to Tea? or other folks who help out the community is one of such ways.Â
(We could make a shout out/thank you/recognition thread! 
)
RE: So this is a thing now? - Warren Castille - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 03:42 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: Giving a shout out to Tea? or other folks who help out the community is one of such ways.Â
This isn't a bad idea.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Gegenji - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 03:42 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: Giving a shout out to Tea? or other folks who help out the community is one of such ways.Â
One exists!
It's mostly for thanking people for things they've done in character, but it is definitely a thank you/recognition thread.
Edit: Waaarren! *shakefist*
RE: So this is a thing now? - McBeefâ„¢ - 12-16-2014
This is a such a boring thing to get grumpy about I can't even think of a snarky comment.
RE: So this is a thing now? - C'kayah Polaali - 12-16-2014
My apologies for causing rancor. Please go back to your regular discussions.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Gegenji - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 03:54 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: This is a such a boring thing to get grumpy about I can't even think of a snarky comment.
Since this is something related to houses, just make a reference to something involving houses and popular culture. I'm quite partial to...
RE: So this is a thing now? - Kage - 12-16-2014
To be honest it's like a pointless reply to a pointless thread if we want to take that route of "hey let's be charitable"
Threads don't need to be made about being more charitable, as this thread implies. Doing so just screams "Rawr! Everyone should be charitable! Something is wrong! Stop doing this!"
The practice, given the circumstances, is not wrong or right. Calling it out and saying "hey those trolling bastards would love this behavior! are we really going to accept this?!"
I have never seen people in the forums take take take take take. I have seen everyone offer and give freely. When a thread pops up going "hey, why aren't you being charitable! this seems uncharitable! not community!!" as the tone has been like here, it's like a slap in the face.
It's like telling every single person who gives something, "You're still doing something bad/wrong/not enough." Why aren't you giving everyone an i110 gear set! Give everyone the gil to purchase a house/personal room! Why don't you run 24/7 people through xyz content!?
RE: So this is a thing now? - ArmachiA - 12-16-2014
I'm actually looking to upgrade my personal house to a medium, which I'm currently saving for. I haven't decided if I'm going to sell or just give up my old house though. It's not like anyone could have really rped in it before, it's Armi's personal home... and it's in an ideal spot for ARMI but I'm not sure anyone else would like it's location XD
And I agree with Kage. This community, despite it's in-fighting (Which is normal for any community) is probably one of the most generous and mature RP communities I've had the pleasure of being a part of.
RE: So this is a thing now? - McBeefâ„¢ - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 04:58 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: I'm actually looking to upgrade my personal house to a medium, which I'm currently saving for. I haven't decided if I'm going to sell or just give up my old house though. It's not like anyone could have really rped in it before, it's Armi's personal home... and it's in an ideal spot for ARMI but I'm not sure anyone else would like it's location XD
And I agree with Kage. This community, despite it's in-fighting (Which is normal for any community) is probably one of the most generous and mature RP communities I've had the pleasure of being a part of.
Agreed. I feel like we shouldn't focus on the one or two edge cases where someone isn't being as generous as possible. In Merri's thread there are far more people looking to give things away rather than take them.
It's just houses work by a strange and confusing system, and everything about them seems to cause rancor.