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+--- Thread: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? (/showthread.php?tid=9094)
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Berrod Armstrong - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 02:28 PM)Aya Wrote:It happens to White Mage roleplayers. It happens to Black Mage roleplayers. It happens to Monks, to Scholars, to Summoners, hell, it's happening to Ninjas. It doesn't happen so much to Paladins, but I won't rule it out...it's nothing really new, there's just a stigma against jobs on the whole!(12-04-2014, 02:13 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Did anyone say they were going to stop roleplaying with dragoons?Considering that the premise of the thread is how Dragoon RPers are looked down upon, and that this thread includes examples of "why I find dragoons unbelievable", etc, then yes. It may not be outright refusal to RP with, but it certainly sounds like there is a substantial resistance to the very idea. Unless, perhaps, one plays a Dragoon who is not really a Dragoon (i.e. an Ishgardian Lancer without the jumping ability).
I've never even seen a Dragoon RPer, but it just rubs me the wrong way that the very idea is treated so derisively and with such ridicule. People should be able to play one if they want without having their most basic capability brought into question (something no other job seems to be faced with).
The key to combating it is to not give a shit O__O
And if someone wants to know -why-, there's no problem with that, really! I devoured every bit of lore on monks I could and even tapped into the reference of the seven chakras to give Berrod an entire system of power to work with -- that way I can explain HOW and WHY he does what he does in detail. It's only natural for some people to want to know how DARGOONZ work regarding their jumps!
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aya - 12-04-2014
You're still punishing players for the games bad or lacking lore. I cannot go along with that. Asking out if curiosity? Â Good and and all.
"LOL that Dragoon thinks he can jump in combat?" Â You're just being a jerk, and no amount of hand-waving will make that go away.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Warren Castille - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 02:41 PM)Aya Wrote: You're still punishing players for the games bad or lacking lore. I cannot go along with that. Asking I out if curiosity? Â Good and and all.
 "LOL that Dragoon thinks he can jump in combat?"  You're just being a jerk, and no amount of hand-waving will make that go away.
I don't think I'm punishing anybody, and if you think that's the attitude I'd take to someone using Jump in combat, I'm not sure what to say.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aya - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 02:43 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:I was replying to Berrod and his point about paying attention to lore and using it to explain extraordinary ability. A Dragoon RPer could not do that no matter how much he may want to since it's unelaborated. Â That expectation isn't reasonable where it's impossible to fulfill. Â It would be better if it were.(12-04-2014, 02:41 PM)Aya Wrote: You're still punishing players for the games bad or lacking lore. I cannot go along with that. Asking I out if curiosity? Â Good and and all.
 "LOL that Dragoon thinks he can jump in combat?"  You're just being a jerk, and no amount of hand-waving will make that go away.
I don't think I'm punishing anybody, and if you think that's the attitude I'd take to someone using Jump in combat, I'm not sure what to say.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Melkire - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 02:29 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: For serious, if you have problems with dragoons you should have problems with warriors.
I think the reason warriors have somehow not gotten nailed with similar stigma is that they're more or less berserkers, and for some reason berserkers are seen as something more plausible, and therefore less likely to break willing suspension of disbelief, than lancers who fly dozens if not hundreds of feet through the air. Berserkers are also more common in fantasy than high-jumpers, and since their handwaves don't typically require magic they get a pass.
Seriously, everything a warrior does is typical 'zerker. I rage hard and therefore hit harder, check. Bloodlust overtakes me and suddenly I've healthier, more robust, and can live through near-death, check. Spilling others' blood keeps me going, check. Yadda yadda yadda.
But a man takes off into the air and suddenly the question becomes, "how did he DO that" because leaping tall buildings in a single bound is Superman territory and therefore needs an explanation more than 'zerking, but when you offer "magic" as an explanation people freak out because the lore doesn't explicitly mention magic in a dragoon's case (same way I flip out about warriors potentially using aether when the lore says nothing of the sort).
EDIT: I just realized that I just said the same exact thing that Warren said on page 3. Goddamnit.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Gegenji - 12-04-2014
I'm getting the feeling that the topic of the thread is less on deriding Dragoons for jumping or saying that those who play Dragoons are bad and should feel bad, and moving towards trying to put together their own reasonings for how the Jump is done to fill our own need to have things explained. Not to yell at Dragoons for "DOIN' IT WRONG" but as to fluff our own person head-canon on how it works.
So far, I've seen straight training, tapping into aether, and possibly even outside augments to explain the jump up. I've presented the throwing yourself option for the coming down, but other options have included creating a aetheric "bounce pad" to rebound off of. There's been questions of accuracy, of exactly when a Dragoon "obtains" their ability to do the Jump and so on.
So I'm thinking it's less punishing and more questioning so we could muse upon the answers and maybe put together an explanation that could be considered lore-appropriate. Of course, just because we come up with one hardly means that our solution is the end-all, be-all or that SE won't provide their own explanation later (or just leave it nebulous!). I was able to come up with the Whelp-squire idea for the learning aspect of things, so I'm rather happy with the result.
Basically, it's less saying how a Dragoon CAN'T Jump like they do mechanically in an RP situation, but to try and come up with clever explanations on how they COULD.
Keep to the positives, be creative, have fun!
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Zhavi - 12-04-2014
edit -- I'm a dum dum.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Berrod Armstrong - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 02:29 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: For serious, if you have problems with dragoons you should have problems with warriors.
No. Not that I have a 'problem' with dragoons, but this sort of logic is a bit silly.Â
I can see why people let warrior 'get away' with the inner beast ability.
First of all: The point of contention is that...all those other jobs have a specified path of training and somewhat explained mechanism as to their function and abilities. Black Mages stick a straw in the planet and drink from it to fuel their spells, Succor is granted to White mages via the elementals, A monk unlocks the seats of power within himself.
Now what SEEMS to be the issue here, is...given that the title of dragoon is granted when one kills a dragon, how does that make them instantly able to jump? Where is the training? Where is the mechanism? That's what seems to be the issue -- someone wanting to know where it comes from and how it works.
Regarding the warrior's inner beast, it's outright said that they go through rigorous training to tap into it, bring it out, and without proper discipline and control, they can lose control. Curious Hunk Gorge spends the majority of the WAR quests talking about how hard he's studying to GIT GUD with it.
Instead of getting all mad that someone is challenging the concept by asking why, shouldn't we as roleplayers explore it instead? I mean getting defensive is one thing, but putting heads together and tossing theories around seems like a much more constructive deal -- Inessa's theory intrigued me; I like seeing people come up with stuff like that, considering I do it a lot myself.Â
Someone's gotta ask why if we're gonna get answers!
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Gegenji - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 02:52 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Now what SEEMS to be the issue here, is...given that the title of dragoon is granted when one kills a dragon, how does that make them instantly able to jump? Where is the training? Where is the mechanism? That's what seems to be the issue -- someone wanting to know where it comes from and how it works.
Which is why I like the idea of a sort of master-apprentice deal or training school (plug plug that Whelp "squire" idea because I'm shameless) as an explanation of where the actual training comes from when you're not cheating through use of the Azure's Soul Crystal. With the slaying of your first dragon serving as your "diploma" and thus showing that you know how to use the Dragoon skills properly, rather than just having you suddenly being able to be a blue dragon-slaying missile.
... After all, it's basically been explained that the Ishgardians totally wouldn't have taught the PC how to become a Dragoon the proper way, requiring a workaround (and the PC being the epitome of "the best at everything"). So, it stands to reason that there could totally be a "Kain's Wyrmkillin' Kollege" somewhere in their city that teaches their Whelps (plugplug) how to do it.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Ashren Dotharl - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 02:52 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Instead of getting all mad that someone is challenging the concept by asking why, shouldn't we as roleplayers explore it instead? I mean getting defensive is one thing, but putting heads together and tossing theories around seems like a much more constructive deal -- Inessa's theory intrigued me; I like seeing people come up with stuff like that, considering I do it a lot myself.Â
Someone's gotta ask why if we're gonna get answers!
Ultimately no amount of theorycrafting will matter or really help if there are no canon explanations to work with. At best you can hope to perhaps come up with a bandaid fix that works for a while, but essentially it probably won't become widely accepted simply because the game doesn't say it's fact or canon.
The best hope you can get really is "it works because it works, until SE tells us how it works" and then just go on with your day.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Zyrusticae - 12-04-2014
We really need to make sure that the next chance we get to ask Koji Fox some questions that we ask a question specifically about explaining the extraordinary fighting abilities of jobs AND ALSO LALAFELLS.
These are some really big question marks on the whole of the lore and we could really use an answer that doesn't just lead to more questions.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Melkire - 12-04-2014
Well, if we want to take a look at the Dragoon class quests... Jump is technically rewarded as a class skill for completing the level 30 class quest.
I haven't done that in a while, but reviewing the steps and dialogue (http://xivdb.com/?quest/66603/Eye-of-the-Dragon) shows that... well... all the Main Character does to be acknowledged as a dragoon is that the Eye of Nidhogg that Estinien carries "rouses" for him/her. This seemingly grants "the power of the dragon" to the MC (or rather renders the MC into a "vessel" for it), and from then on Alberic takes it upon himself to impart instruction. It's said that the Eye only "chooses" the "strongest and wisest dragoon" as the Azure Dragoon, yet Alberic doesn't acknowledge the MC as the Azure Dragoon until much, much later. That sounds like, "oh, well, you can be a dragoon now, but you still need training and you don't know how to harness or use that power so you aren't the Azure YET".
I'd say there's definitely some magical component to it that probably comes from exposure to either draconic artifacts or dragons themselves. It certainly SOUNDS like a prerequisite for dragoon techniques, since it's only afterward that Alberic takes on the MC as a student. That said, if you fulfill that prerequisite and you have a mentor capable of instructing you in "jumping", well, there you go. (PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS EXCEPTION OF THE MC'S INDICATES THAT YOU DON'T ACTUALLY NEED TO KILL A DRAGON TO BE A DRAGOON)
As for the explanation (EDIT: as to how jumping actually works)... SHRUG. I'm going to chalk it down to "cuz dragons, bitches" as I've always done.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Berrod Armstrong - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 03:01 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote:Theorycrafting does matter, because it drums up interest, discussion and more questions. These questions end up making it to the forums and lore panels, and -eventually- we get answers. The fun of comparing the theories to the answers is...well it's exhilarating, in a sense.(12-04-2014, 02:52 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Instead of getting all mad that someone is challenging the concept by asking why, shouldn't we as roleplayers explore it instead? I mean getting defensive is one thing, but putting heads together and tossing theories around seems like a much more constructive deal -- Inessa's theory intrigued me; I like seeing people come up with stuff like that, considering I do it a lot myself.Â
Someone's gotta ask why if we're gonna get answers!
Ultimately no amount of theorycrafting will matter or really help if there are no canon explanations to work with. At best you can hope to perhaps come up with a bandaid fix that works for a while, but essentially it probably won't become widely accepted simply because the game doesn't say it's fact or canon.
The best hope you can get really is "it works because it works, until SE tells us how it works" and then just go on with your day.
Also, theory crafting matters in cases where one must at least come up with SOME sort of theory in order to fit the concept into their narrative. It's mostly through asking the questions we're able to dig deep enough to come up with something useable until DAS TRUTH~~~ comes out.Â
I wouldn't be able to play Berrod as a Monk or a '~~~master~~~' (*snortlaughs*) without it.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aya - 12-04-2014
I'm not taking anything personally. Â I am friends with most everyone in this thread, and know that they don't mean anything personal against me :-X Â And as someone who has no intention of playing a Dragoon in RP I don't really have anything at stake I the topic. Â I just like people to be accepting of RP that fits so easily within the games canon. Â It doesn't sit well with me for people to be preemptively dismissing others.
 The thread is about a stigma against people RPing Dragoons, on the first page we have discussion about someone being kicked out of an FC tied in with discussion of the absurdity of Dragoons being able to jump.  This was followed by an explanation of why physics and believability are important for immersion (the implication being that Dragoons are immersion breaking).
I have certainly seen the discussion of believability that has followed within that framework: it isnt beleivable and therefore its immersion breaking, and bad RP. Â Warren and others have not expressed themselves in the sense that, "I understand that we have to offer leeway in RP, but I am curious how it's meant to work", but instead have followed within the vain of "its not believable", which is not a neutral knowledge-seeking stance to adopt, especially in this context.Â
That's why I just clarified what my purpose is: not to prove that Dragoon jumping ability is believable, Â but instead to make the point that it should be accepted in RP regardless.
Edit: I see Zhavi's post I was responding to has been removed, basically. Typing on phone is too slow ^^
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Warren Castille - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 03:03 PM)Melkire Wrote: Well, if we want to take a look at the Dragoon class quests... Jump is technically rewarded as a class skill for completing the level 30 class quest.
I haven't done that in a while, but reviewing the steps and dialogue (http://xivdb.com/?quest/66603/Eye-of-the-Dragon) shows that... well... all the Main Character does to be acknowledged as a dragoon is that the Eye of Nidhogg that Estinien carries "rouses" for him/her. This seemingly grants "the power of the dragon" to the MC (or rather renders the MC into a "vessel" for it), and from then on Alberic takes it upon himself to impart instruction. It's said that the Eye only "chooses" the "strongest and wisest dragoon" as the Azure Dragoon, yet Alberic doesn't acknowledge the MC as the Azure Dragoon until much, much later. That sounds like, "oh, well, you can be a dragoon now, but you still need training and you don't know how to harness or use that power so you aren't the Azure YET".
I'd say there's definitely some magical component to it that probably comes from exposure to either draconic artifacts or dragons themselves. It certainly SOUNDS like a prerequisite for dragoon techniques, since it's only afterward that Alberic takes on the MC as a student. That said, if you fulfill that prerequisite and you have a mentor capable of instructing you in "jumping", well, there you go. (PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS EXCEPTION OF THE MC'S INDICATES THAT YOU DON'T ACTUALLY NEED TO KILL A DRAGON TO BE A DRAGOON)
As for the explanation... SHRUG. I'm going to chalk it down to "cuz dragons, bitches" as I've always done.
I'm currently attached to the idea that the Inner Dragon thing is on the money here, be it either "legitimately" or through exposure to dragons. I'm not-so-secretly hoping that Heavensward reveals dragoons as all being "corrupted" by an insane Holy See due to draconic influence.
If you were an Ascian, how would you end a never-ending war? By forcing one side to eat itself!