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+--- Thread: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? (/showthread.php?tid=11216)
RE: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? - Verad - 04-22-2015
Here's why I'm hostile:
It feels good. It's cathartic. If there's somebody I disagree with, then replying in a hostile tone is pleasurable. Unfortunately, catharsis is addictive, so I keep doing it.
As part of that catharsis, I'm rewarded for it by the structure of the board. My reputation is very high given my post-count. If you were to click through that reputation and examine it, you would find that most of those boosts come directly in response to a hostile comment. That could be because it's witty, it says something that people agree with, or because they just like me and want me to post more in general, I don't know. But the hostility is what gets me points. Tiny little ego-boosts to surprise and brighten my day. Somebody likes it when I'm a shithead far more than when I'm constructive or writing IC fiction, and I don't think I'm the only person for which that's true.
To be clear, I am not excusing my hostility as the fault of the reputation system, nor am I excusing anybody else's for the same. Reputation facilitates and rewards, but I would be hostile without it - though probably to a lesser extent.
Carrying on, I find it to be something to post when I don't feel like there's anything very useful or interesting going on in the boards in general, and in the pre-expansion lull, that's been quite a lot. I prefer substantive discussion to fun threads or hype speculation. I don't hate fun threads, and I will post in some of them myself, but in some of the forums I prefer, like Character Development, they dominate the discourse. I don't consider them circlejerks as other posters have insinuated, but I don't want to see them be the primary mode of discourse.
It's a useful way to shift conversations which are going down the same roads they always go. I recognize that there are new roleplayers every day, but there are not so many new roleplayers, not just to FF14, but to RP in general, that we need to have regular threads that end with the same non-conclusion of "It comes down to trust and communication" whenever there's any thread dealing with the possibility of character or player conflict. The conversations always stop there, at this uncertain point which is technically true but functionally useless as roleplaying advice, and it's no wonder they devolve into arguments. I admit my complicity in this, but at least hostility is interesting to read.
I also don't like forced positivity. I would rather be honestly critical in my own voice than be falsely positive. This can lead to people ignoring me, as I believe one person mentioned in this thread, and I completely understand that. I don't take it as a slight, and I would rather be ignored for my voice than chastised into changing it.
So that's some of the reasons.
RE: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? - Zhavi - 04-22-2015
(04-22-2015, 03:10 PM)Verad Wrote: I also don't like forced positivity. I would rather be honestly critical in my own voice than be falsely positive. This can lead to people ignoring me, as I believe one person mentioned in this thread, and I completely understand that. I don't take it as a slight, and I would rather be ignored for my voice than chastised into changing it.
So that's some of the reasons.
You're definitely intelligent enough to know there's varying levels of criticism and being critical, where I think the goal here would be to focus more on the satisfaction gained from criticism that fosters and empowers a topic rather than tears down those participating.
That said, you're insightful and honest: two traits that I find highly valuable.
The board is composed of individuals who make individual choices. No one that I've been aware of is an entrenched troll whose sole desire is to sow conflict, so as a result thread moderation can stem the symptoms, but not the cause.
Fixing the cause means people making choices on each post, and via each thread they read. And, something I hadn't considered: each post they +1.
Maybe it would be cool to have a 'concrit the writing of the person above you' thread, with the intention being for people to link a specific piece of their writing with responses genuinely offering thoughts and advice -- and more than just some throwaway one liner. A common theme throughout this thread has been that people would like more feedback about their writing.
edit - concrit thread: http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=11236
So if you feel like your writing isn't being seen, there's an option.
RE: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? - FreelanceWizard - 04-22-2015
(04-22-2015, 03:10 PM)Verad Wrote: As part of that catharsis, I'm rewarded for it by the structure of the board. My reputation is very high given my post-count. If you were to click through that reputation and examine it, you would find that most of those boosts come directly in response to a hostile comment. That could be because it's witty, it says something that people agree with, or because they just like me and want me to post more in general, I don't know. But the hostility is what gets me points. Tiny little ego-boosts to surprise and brighten my day. Somebody likes it when I'm a shithead far more than when I'm constructive or writing IC fiction, and I don't think I'm the only person for which that's true.
To be clear, I am not excusing my hostility as the fault of the reputation system, nor am I excusing anybody else's for the same. Reputation facilitates and rewards, but I would be hostile without it - though probably to a lesser extent.
This is an interesting point. I've had a couple of people suggest to me that the reputation system is not having the desired effect (which is to say, giving bennies to good users) but is instead incentivizing bad behavior as you described. I wonder if the reputation system is, at this point, perhaps causing more harm than good by creating a perception that some people are better than others. Would it better to hide reputation from other users? Remove it entirely?
RE: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? - Aya - 04-22-2015
(04-22-2015, 03:22 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: This is an interesting point. I've had a couple of people suggest to me that the reputation system is not having the desired effect (which is to say, giving bennies to good users) but is instead incentivizing bad behavior as you described. I wonder if the reputation system is, at this point, perhaps causing more harm than good by creating a perception that some people are better than others. Would it better to hide reputation from other users? Remove it entirely?I really like the ability to give people rep boosts, its one of my favorite RPC activities to know that I can slightly brighten someone's day for having brightened mine.
I think getting rid of this in an effort to make the forum less hostile would really miss the mark...
RE: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? - Warren Castille - 04-22-2015
(04-22-2015, 03:22 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: I wonder if the reputation system is, at this point, perhaps causing more harm than good by creating a perception that some people are better than others. Would it better to hide reputation from other users? Remove it entirely?
It's a good system that is easily misused. I view it as a polite way to tap someone on the shoulder and nod at them that I appreciated their post - Not enough to warrant a full PM to discuss things, but a "me too!" sort of thing. Hiding the number or making it only visible on their profile would help remove the intimidating factor that someone with a high number can have (Yes, I'm painfully aware of that) while still allowing people to get their dopamine rush from contributing. Outright removal is certainly an option, but there's too many folks with "legit" reputations that would be losing out because we like when people make dick jokes.
RE: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? - Zhavi - 04-22-2015
(04-22-2015, 03:22 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:(04-22-2015, 03:10 PM)Verad Wrote: As part of that catharsis, I'm rewarded for it by the structure of the board. My reputation is very high given my post-count. If you were to click through that reputation and examine it, you would find that most of those boosts come directly in response to a hostile comment. That could be because it's witty, it says something that people agree with, or because they just like me and want me to post more in general, I don't know. But the hostility is what gets me points. Tiny little ego-boosts to surprise and brighten my day. Somebody likes it when I'm a shithead far more than when I'm constructive or writing IC fiction, and I don't think I'm the only person for which that's true.
To be clear, I am not excusing my hostility as the fault of the reputation system, nor am I excusing anybody else's for the same. Reputation facilitates and rewards, but I would be hostile without it - though probably to a lesser extent.
This is an interesting point. I've had a couple of people suggest to me that the reputation system is not having the desired effect (which is to say, giving bennies to good users) but is instead incentivizing bad behavior as you described. I wonder if the reputation system is, at this point, perhaps causing more harm than good by creating a perception that some people are better than others. Would it better to hide reputation from other users? Remove it entirely?
You could do a week long test where you hide it (without destroying reps) and then ask people about perceived changes, maybe with a poll.
RE: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? - Verad - 04-22-2015
(04-22-2015, 03:22 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: This is an interesting point. I've had a couple of people suggest to me that the reputation system is not having the desired effect (which is to say, giving bennies to good users) but is instead incentivizing bad behavior as you described. I wonder if the reputation system is, at this point, perhaps causing more harm than good by creating a perception that some people are better than others. Would it better to hide reputation from other users? Remove it entirely?
I would make it more difficult to give reputation so people cannot toss off a quick +1 when somebody gives something snarky, thereby making rep more valuable for both giver and receiver, or I would remove it.
Another possibility is to make rep available only to posts on certain forums. Maybe Events and Town Square and a few other places where the goal would be rewarding IC writing rather than OOC snark.
This isn't an RPC-specific problem, to be clear. It's just how the internet rewards discourse in general. But in general it leads to toxicity, trolling, and far more aggressive behavior. It can be moderated.
RE: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? - Alothia - 04-22-2015
A note from a moderator about the rewarding of hostility:
Be warned. What you have received before in rep points may quickly become warnings and temporary bans. This is directed toward everyone who enjoys being hostile. We suggest that you start curbing that behavior quickly, because we are going to start cracking down on it.Â
It's great to be open and honest. You don't have to be an ass hole to others to get your point across, however.
RE: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? - Aris - 04-22-2015
Removing the reputation system - perhaps semi permanently as a trial - might also help new members feel more welcome as everyone is on an even playing field, and not get any preconceived ideas about members already here.
RE: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? - Verad - 04-22-2015
(04-22-2015, 03:27 PM)Alothia Wrote: A note from a moderator about the rewarding of hostility:
Be warned. What you have received before in rep points may quickly become warnings and temporary bans. This is directed toward everyone who enjoys being hostile. We suggest that you start curbing that behavior quickly, because we are going to start cracking down on it.Â
It's great to be open and honest. You don't have to be an ass hole to others to get your point across, however.
Then I need to know what you and the moderators consider an asshole. You will be setting the tone; better to provide concrete examples.
RE: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? - FreelanceWizard - 04-22-2015
(04-22-2015, 03:29 PM)Verad Wrote:(04-22-2015, 03:27 PM)Alothia Wrote: A note from a moderator about the rewarding of hostility:
Be warned. What you have received before in rep points may quickly become warnings and temporary bans. This is directed toward everyone who enjoys being hostile. We suggest that you start curbing that behavior quickly, because we are going to start cracking down on it.Â
It's great to be open and honest. You don't have to be an ass hole to others to get your point across, however.
Then I need to know what you and the moderators consider an asshole. You will be setting the tone; better to provide concrete examples.
We'll be providing a list of bad behaviors along with examples, explanations of how they'll be interpreted, and what the consequences are before we start enforcing it. It wouldn't be fair or transparent to say "we're cracking down in a more active way using some new standard" and then not tell people what the standard is, of course.
EDIT: We're currently in the process of finalizing this, BTW.
RE: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? - Aya - 04-22-2015
(04-22-2015, 03:28 PM)Aris Wrote: Removing the reputation system - perhaps semi permanently as a trial - might also help new members feel more welcome as everyone is on an even playing field, and not get any preconceived ideas about members already here.If people really feel that the RPC is in need of removal of reputations in order to be a friendly, fun place then I honestly have no idea what's going on any more.
RE: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? - Warren Castille - 04-22-2015
(04-22-2015, 03:26 PM)Zhavi Wrote: You could do a week long test where you hide it (without destroying reps) and then ask people about perceived changes, maybe with a poll.
My concern with that: There's already an existing attitude towards anyone with a certain number of reputation bumps. I won't invoke the off-topic "P" word but a week won't change any single person's opinion that's already on this board: The red names and green numbers are already noted by the people who will take umbrage with them.
I will admit that I thought I was doing a small service for the folks posting on the Welcome Board. When you're someone new to a community and you're making a post where you're not sure if you're going to be received well (if at all!) I thought it helped to see someone with an older date and a big number of posts and such greet you. It's one thing to slip quietly into a new community, it's something else to walk into a party and have someone wave you in and go "Hey! You're here! Awesome!"
Maybe I'm wrong, though. This whole thread's made me feel very insecure and introspective about how I come across, and honestly? It's just made me want to post less. There's this stigma of "P" word that I can't metabolize, and in the face of not being able to openly discuss issues because of my own guilty conscience I'm going to opt out every single time. I don't want to get into another argument about that particular term but it's stupid and wrong. RP isn't zero sum, and I can say that I personally roleplay with far, far fewer of you all than I'd like.
RE: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? - Kage - 04-22-2015
A -very- -bad- idea came to my mind because I started to think about human nature, reddit, and how things be upvoted or not.
In my experience, a lot of people have given me reps for posting something they agree with or find enjoyable. The very bad idea was to allow a system that shows you that they disagree with how you said something or what you said.
So uh, carry on it was a bad bad thought.
RE: Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately? - Zhavi - 04-22-2015
(04-22-2015, 03:32 PM)Aya Wrote:(04-22-2015, 03:28 PM)Aris Wrote: Removing the reputation system - perhaps semi permanently as a trial - might also help new members feel more welcome as everyone is on an even playing field, and not get any preconceived ideas about members already here.If people really feel that the RPC is in need of removal of reputations in order to be a friendly, fun place then I honestly have no idea what's going on any more.
> You're new to the forum
> You see someone with a lot of reputation making a negative post.
> You might then be inclined to believe that that sort of posting is normal, encouraged, and perpetuated by the community and staff.
> You adjust your behavior to match with what you perceive the community to be.