+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? (/showthread.php?tid=9094)
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kage - 12-04-2014
Please keep in mind that most people do not mind the dragoon's ability to jump but the effectiveness it has in combat and why the idea of "jumping people to death" hits a sense of credulousness because it's like my spearing a rib eye steak with my fork and doing the exact same thing with a grape.
Think about the thought processes and the effort taken for both.
It's the same as thinking of a Dragoon using the skills he has to fight dragoons and thinking it will be the same thing in combat RP with another Player Character.
I doubt that the one FC criticized the combat technique if it had an ounce of credibility.
Also, according to the one account being pointed out... the person was not kicked out. He was questioned ICly. Took it badly OOCly, quit and then smears the FC telling people not to RP with them.
Quote:There was an IC DRG once who joined my FC for all of an hour until he was told IC that jumping was a silly tactic when fighting other people began to yell at us OOC about that remark that had been made in RP, promptly quit the FC and apparently to this day goes around telling everyone not to RP with us lol. If you want to have your character jump around a lot, and even if you want him to be presumed to be good at it and be a competent fighter, that's fine--but you need to be able to handle criticism on the matter, as many people may not find jumping 20 feet in the air to be a useful or believable fighting tactic.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kellach Woods - 12-04-2014
It'd make sense that killing a proper dragon would grant you some sort of boon beyond just the material.
I'm for that headcanon until actual lore emerges.
Also,
"First I jump 20 feet in the air."
"And?"
"Then I just decide to leave because NO WAY AM I FIGHTING BEHEMOTH ALONE ARE YOU CRAZY."
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Melkire - 12-04-2014
...I roleplayed a dragon for an event a few weeks (maybe a month?) back. Anyone who was there to see an IC dragoon ground an already-crippled-in-one-wing dragon by jumping up and coming down on its spine with his lance to drive the thing into the earth would not question a jump's effectiveness, I would think.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kage - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 03:25 PM)Melkire Wrote: ...I roleplayed a dragon for an event a few weeks (maybe a month?) back. Anyone who was there to see an IC dragoon ground an already-crippled-in-one-wing dragon by jumping up and coming down on its spine with his lance to drive the thing into the earth would not question a jump's effectiveness, I would think.RP a dragoon fighting against Osric.
Or a dragoon fighting against black mages who fling fireballs and teleport willy nilly.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Gegenji - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 03:36 PM)Kage Wrote:(12-04-2014, 03:25 PM)Melkire Wrote: ...I roleplayed a dragon for an event a few weeks (maybe a month?) back. Anyone who was there to see an IC dragoon ground an already-crippled-in-one-wing dragon by jumping up and coming down on its spine with his lance to drive the thing into the earth would not question a jump's effectiveness, I would think.RP a dragoon fighting against Osric.
Or a dragoon fighting against black mages who fling fireballs and teleport willy nilly.
RP a dragoon fighting Chachan and watch him scramble away screaming that it's raining men (Hallelujah). Or that the sky is falling.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Val - 12-04-2014
I'm NOT against Dragoons jumping in combat. In fact, I'm all for it. I just think there's a time and a place for those skills, and fighting a human-sized target that is incredibly quick and can dart around isn't one of them. As I stated in my original post, Dragoons are made to fight dragons. Their jump takes a long time--it SHOULD take a long time. If we're going to say that they use aether, then there's going to be a momentary concentration or build-up for that aetheric energy to blast them into the air. It's going to take time for them to reach the peak of their jump, and it's going to take time for their aether-charged whatever to blast them forward (if they use that). All the other person has to do is.. you know. Move. While I can accept that their armor helps them to move in mid-air, I can't accept that, moving at high speeds, it lets them curve around on a dime, and it's some kind of DBZ logic to think that the enemy would just stand there while the dragoon is doing all of this.
Val actually has fought a dragoon in game that decided he wanted to just flip around. All he did was step to the side the entire time until the dragoon got tired. Straight-line attacks where you commit everything from a distance and just kind of ride out the attack just won't work against small, fast targets.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Zyrusticae - 12-04-2014
I will slap anyone who tries to tell me they can blink through space instantly without any cast times whatsoever.
It's about on the same level as claiming you can fly because aether. There is absolutely zero in-game evidence for either assertion. Yeah, thanks, but no thanks, buddy!
That being said, Jump always seemed to me to be a skill (especially in the single-player Final Fantasies) used in conjunction with other party members who distract the target so the DRG can get a clear shot. Trying to think of the logistics of using it in a 1v1 duel is indeed quite a head-scratcher.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kage - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 03:38 PM)Gegenji Wrote:Hey now I'm sure there are female dragoons!(12-04-2014, 03:36 PM)Kage Wrote:(12-04-2014, 03:25 PM)Melkire Wrote: ...I roleplayed a dragon for an event a few weeks (maybe a month?) back. Anyone who was there to see an IC dragoon ground an already-crippled-in-one-wing dragon by jumping up and coming down on its spine with his lance to drive the thing into the earth would not question a jump's effectiveness, I would think.RP a dragoon fighting against Osric.
Or a dragoon fighting against black mages who fling fireballs and teleport willy nilly.
RP a dragoon fighting Chachan and watch him scramble away screaming that it's raining men (Hallelujah). Or that the sky is falling.
In that case, kage can shield Chachan or swing his axe like a baseball bat. SMAAAAAAASH! Wait. This isn't Eagleland. :/
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Gegenji - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 03:40 PM)Val Wrote: Val actually has fought a dragoon in game that decided he wanted to just flip around. All he did was step to the side the entire time until the dragoon got tired. Straight-line attacks where you commit everything from a distance and just kind of ride out the attack just won't work against small, fast targets.
Err... if I may counterpoint: bows and guns. Granted, I doubt a Dragoon is going as fast as one of those (or maybe they are, who knows!), but there is the idea of "leading" a target and aiming for where you assume them to be at the point of contact. So just sidestepping might now always work, if your opponent anticipates it, much like if any opponent anticipates your movement. You just have less control of snap changes if you guessed wrong.
(12-04-2014, 03:42 PM)Kage Wrote: In that case, kage can shield Chachan or swing his axe like a baseball bat. SMAAAAAAASH! Wait. This isn't Eagleland. :/
Mah hero.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Berrod Armstrong - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 03:40 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: It's about on the same level as claiming you can fly because aether. There is absolutely zero in-game evidence for either assertion. Yeah, thanks, but no thanks, buddy!There's actually a certain cutscene...
*cough*
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kage - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 03:43 PM)Gegenji Wrote:Combat RP can get so tricky.(12-04-2014, 03:40 PM)Val Wrote: Val actually has fought a dragoon in game that decided he wanted to just flip around. All he did was step to the side the entire time until the dragoon got tired. Straight-line attacks where you commit everything from a distance and just kind of ride out the attack just won't work against small, fast targets.
Err... if I may counterpoint: bows and guns. Granted, I doubt a Dragoon is going as fast as one of those (or maybe they are, who knows!), but there is the idea of "leading" a target and aiming for where you assume them to be at the point of contact. So just sidestepping might now always work, if your opponent anticipates it, much like if any opponent anticipates your movement. You just have less control of snap changes if you guessed wrong.
People who can anticipate your move, roll backwards, and move someone into the way of an arrow shot at their back. Totally could be a dragoon who anticipates the backstep movement.
The point is that in a dragoon vs other player character situation, the odds are almost always against a dragoon landing the charge or jump when they haven't done some maiming or crippling... or haven't had help to keep the player character focused on something else, not the dragoon.
(12-04-2014, 03:44 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote:(12-04-2014, 03:40 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: It's about on the same level as claiming you can fly because aether. There is absolutely zero in-game evidence for either assertion. Yeah, thanks, but no thanks, buddy!There's actually a certain cutscene...
*cough*
But you're like in blue space then. :c
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Berrod Armstrong - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 03:46 PM)Kage Wrote: But you're like in blue space then. :cNo not that one...*cough*
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aya - 12-04-2014
Kage, My post was a reply to one that has now been deleted, that tried to suggest that this thread was not about the stigma of Dragoons in RP.  I was pointing out that association being on the very first page, not to mention the topic of the thread itself, makes this thread quite different than what was being suggested by Zhavi.
Val, you're essentially saying "Yes you can be a Dragoon, but don't actually try to be a Dragoon, unless of course you're fighting Dragons." Â While Dragons are the ultimate target, there is nothing anywhere in the game to suggest that is the only target against which Dragoons know how to jump against. Â Its absurd to be alright, on one hand, with fireballs, and on the other dismiss entirely the ability for someone to guide their descent to strike you with a lance. Â They're both ridiculous, yet both in a fantasy setting are reasonable, especially when the jumping Dragoon is a time-honored part of Final Fantasy! Â
You're making a huge assumption that the line of attack cannot be changed, and that a simple move is all that's required to avoid it. Â You're also dismissing what should be a dramatic moment. Â No, I don't think that a Dragoon's Jump is super-powered, but like all character abilities its power is just as necessary to fit the story and the moment. Â For you to automatically side-step his jump, is exactly the same as his automatically avoiding every strike you make. Â Neither is ultimately helpful to the story, really.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Warren Castille - 12-04-2014
There's already been a share of flippy ninja types showing up at the world's premiere RP-PVP locale, the Grindstone, and every single time one tries to frontflip over my head or dart around me I will have Warren shamelessly track their movement and turn his body. It's a failing of mine, but I'll never be able to believe someone's able to take that sort of thing seriously.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Gegenji - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 03:46 PM)Kage Wrote: The point is that in a dragoon vs other player character situation, the odds are almost always against a dragoon landing the charge or jump when they haven't done some maiming or crippling... or haven't had help to keep the player character focused on something else, not the dragoon.
Depends. If I can use the arrow/bullet comparison again, knowing you have the projectile coming at you doesn't mean you'll have the skill to evade it. Plus, as you mentioned, there's also the idea of attacking via ambush or otherwise obscuring the attack (ex. doing that anime-style jump where you are between your opponent and the sun, attacking through the glare).
In addition, if the ailerons/dragon spirit concepts have any merit, they could also be used to allow for some minor adjustments in the fall to compensate for an enemy's movement. Obviously you couldn't make a 90-degree turn or loop around that tree that Chachan ducked behind in a panic, but you could alter your trajectory a bit more than your opponent might think. Gotta make use of that Ph.D in Geometry and Jumpology from Kain Kollege, after all.
Really, as "out there" as jumping might be as a combat mechanic, there are ways I can see it working. And, if surprisingly simple enough, making use of it requires concessions on both sides just like with any RP combat. It's just explaining a dropping dragoon as opposed to a pugilist's elbow drop.