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+--- Thread: Debates are not arguments (/showthread.php?tid=10258)
Debates are not arguments - Seriphyn - 02-22-2015
Big preface in stating that the below references no specific event in particular, or an even recent one at that. It's just a trend I've noticed!
Quote:Person A: I don't think you can roleplay this.
Person B: Actually, this lore reference says you can.
Person A: Hm, is that so? Upon reading it, I don't think you are totally correct, for it says this in that particular section.
Person B: You have a point, and maybe if people were reasonable about it, it could be done.
Person A: Perhaps, but I think you might be misconstruing what the lore refe-
Person C: GUISE PLS STOP I AM SO UNCOMFORTABLE WHY ARE YOU ARGUING I AM LEAVING THIS LS SO TOXIC
So, there are some among us who really like to discuss lore and proscribe a conclusion based on what is extrapolated and debated. This is basically the essence of any academic debate; an adversarial but non-hostile clash of views with references in the pursuit of a final conclusion. Not everyone is going to reach the same conclusion, so it is acceptable to just agree to disagree. In the context of FFXIV lore discussion, the conclusions basically amount to "this can be roleplayed" and "this cannot be roleplayed", as well as variations between those two ends. Naturally, people who roleplay X are going to be disconcerted when the discussion they observe concludes that X "cannot be roleplayed".
Those of us who are relatively strict about the lore and proscribe judgement to roleplay could be said to be divided into two camps; they will not RP with your bending/breaking character, or they will RP with your bending/breaking character. Despite my verboseness with lore discussion, I am actually in the latter camp. I will RP with mostly everyone because I freaking love this game and its community. My character will just react accordingly to whenever your character drops a lorebomb.
This is an important aspect of those who like to engage in academic debates that those who do not fail to understand. Our argumentative nature enjoy debates because it is a mental exercise that we intellectually invest ourselves into for stimulation, but it is not personal. When we proscribe negative judgements to roleplay, it is not a personal attack. I am not going to say this is the case for everyone, but I merely seek to defend those who are labeled perhaps unfairly as 'lore nazis'. Of course, there are those who proscribe roleplay judgments because they want to impose their view or they're just arrogant pricks.
So, going back to the original example, I have seen this happen at least three times in large public linkshells. The question that emerges from these instances is the following...
1) Should participants in the lore debate shift to a private conversation?
OR
2) Should observers who are uncomfortable tolerate the lore debate?
There are points that can be argued in favour of both sides, but I personally am going to argue vehemently against number 1. In my opinion, that basically amounts to censoring based on "being offended", something I am staunchly against on principle. Outsiders to an event effectively find their feelings hurt because of the actions of a pair or group of individuals who are having fun and otherwise oblivious to the concept what they doing is apparently "offensive". It becomes a question of free speech, and this is where I will cease arguing this particular point, lest it become dicey.
On the other hand, this might also be a case of "pick your battles". In the name of community harmony, surely not upsetting members of the group is more important than arguing the lore of a make-believe world? What use is there politicizing the dynamics of an online community that's sole purpose of existing is to have fun? In real-life, we fight for freedom and democracy, but in FFXIV RP, we're here solely to play house with our pretend characters. Why get so indignant about issues that not even remotely have the same impact as some issue do in reality?
Nonetheless, it is a debate (not argument!) worth having, so go!
RE: Debates are not arguments - Ciel - 02-22-2015
One person's debate is another person's argument. Take it to a private conversation.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Verranicus - 02-22-2015
(02-22-2015, 04:47 PM)Ciel Wrote: One person's debate is another person's argument. Take it to a private conversation.The point of a forum is debate and discussion.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Hihimi - 02-22-2015
(02-22-2015, 04:47 PM)Ciel Wrote: One person's debate is another person's argument. Take it to a private conversation.As a very sensitive person, I agree. Even if you don't think it'll make people uncomfortable, it may clog up other people's chat boxes if you go on too long or get in too deep. It's better to leave public, all-inclusive conversations public and private, sensitive subjects private.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Faye - 02-22-2015
I believe it's a compromise. The more "sensitive" folk need to try to toughen up and realize that if the topic is a relatively harmless one (aka not religion or real world politics) and if no personal insults are being thrown around, it's probably an okay discussion. On the other hand, debaters need to realize when they're annoying everyone else and dial it back a notch or take it to private messages when others begin to complain.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Gone. - 02-22-2015
There's also a difference between healthy discussion and typically heated debate, the latter of which most don't want or need while they're simply trying to relax, more so when it involves such a personal subject.
Have a little tact and be sensitive to those around you. Lore of all things isn't worth upsetting people over.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Ciel - 02-22-2015
(02-22-2015, 04:50 PM)Verranicus Wrote:(02-22-2015, 04:47 PM)Ciel Wrote: One person's debate is another person's argument. Take it to a private conversation.The point of a forum is debate and discussion.
You completely missed the point of what I was saying. I was saying on the matter of public debate in things like a LS, it should be taken to private. I never said not to post debates on a forum. Seraphyn was looking for opinions, so I gave mine.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Kage - 02-22-2015
(02-22-2015, 04:50 PM)Verranicus Wrote:When it happens in linkshells, they're not forums.(02-22-2015, 04:47 PM)Ciel Wrote: One person's debate is another person's argument. Take it to a private conversation.The point of a forum is debate and discussion.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Unnamed Mercenary - 02-22-2015
While I think debates are fine in linkshells, if kept civil, it's ultimately up to the person if they want to see it or not. If you don't feel comfortable in the linkshell and it doesn't look like it's going to improve, why bother staying in it? The game is meant to be fun. If there's something making it not-fun, then either try to fix it or remove it.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Kage - 02-22-2015
You can avoid these types of "uncomfortable" debates... or usually arguments on forums. You can't with linkshells. Two(?) people basically taking their argument into a linkshell means the other 100ish people are forced to look at that linkshell. Hiding that linkshell means you hide the other 100 people who may be trying to speak with you.
Two peoples' debate or argument should not intrude on 100 other people.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Seriphyn - 02-22-2015
So, from our initial musings, it seems the first point reminds me of a conversation I had with a comedian regarding offensive comedy.
If you're going to a comedy show, you should expect to hear absolutely anything and not get offended by it. You're heading into something you know full well may stray into territory you're not comfortable with. On that, he was able to justify using offensive jokes. However, he strongly discouraged the idea about making offensive jokes outside of a show. People are not expecting it, cannot be expected to expect it, and so on.Â
This same principle, then, can be applied to the argument regarding lore debates in public linkshells.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Kage - 02-22-2015
I mean... you COULD make a lore debating Linkshell :>
But I figure those type of discussions, in which you want public commentary, are better suited for forums such as this.
People are not forced to see the threads, etc and can remove themselves without extricating themselves from everyone who use the forums
RE: Debates are not arguments - Hihimi - 02-22-2015
(02-22-2015, 05:31 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: So, from our initial musings, it seems the first point reminds me of a conversation I had with a comedian regarding offensive comedy.Yes, exactly! Public spaces are meant for harmonious interactions. Private ones can be as raunchy, insulting, or in this case, heated, as you need them to be. If three or more people want to debate it's best to form a party and debate that way, not to force it on the 100+ people in a large linkshell you just so happen to share. It's like friends debating in the middle of a mall--not everyone wants to see it, and the managers will typically tell you you're distracting the pedestrians and ask you to leave.
If you're going to a comedy show, you should expect to hear absolutely anything and not get offended by it. You're heading into something you know full well may stray into territory you're not comfortable with. On that, he was able to justify using offensive jokes. However, he strongly discouraged the idea about making offensive jokes outside of a show. People are not expecting it, cannot be expected to expect it, and so on.Â
This same principle, then, can be applied to the argument regarding lore debates in public linkshells.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Flashhelix - 02-22-2015
Why join an LS or other kind of public forum for communication if you're going to vehemently discourage any kind of communication that isn't the tone you want it to be? People over-dramatize these kinds of things. Two people arguing in a public LS isn't ruining other conversations, and having to see it isn't the end of the world. It's text on a screen, you can still converse with other people wholly independent of another conversation, it's not like verbal communication where you can be drowned out.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Gone. - 02-22-2015
It is ruining other conversations, though, because the entire scenario engulfs the spotlight and shuts everything else out. :\