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+--- Thread: LS Leader section (/showthread.php?tid=1065)
LS Leader section - Kylin - 09-23-2011
I'm basically just gauging how people feel about this topic since Eva brought it up recently. Would you be for or against the reimplementation of a leadership section for LS leaders to utilize here on the RPC? Why or why not? What kind of restrictions, if any, should be put in place? What should the section primarily be used for specifically? What shouldn't it be used for?
Re: LS Leader section - Merri - 09-24-2011
I'd say this is needed more than ever at this point.
While originally the idea didn't pan out so well, I'd say that was due mainly to the complexity that was trying to be pushed with the idea upon the community, among other things. There's really no need for many restrictions, as it should be nothing more than a private forum for leadership of the shells to keep in touch with each other and plan events. However, it should not be used for discussing the state of the community, nor to discuss what is happening within the community (drama-wise, etc). There's no need for people to discuss either of those things behind closed doors, especially the latter. It should be a simple forum for planning events, nothing more.
Re: LS Leader section - Smiling River - 09-24-2011
Voted yes. It will at least create potential to start or share storylines on grounds the participants can agree on. If it won’t be used, then it’s the same as never having it, no loss there. I personally already know certain Linkshells I want to get involved with, and others I’d likely avoid, so cross-LS activity will happen regardless of this forum being there or not. However for those who might not know other linkshells, or which linkshells they wish to connect with, it could help to create cross-LS RP.
I don’t mind the forum being visible to all, with maybe a hidden sub-forum for story discussions which would include spoilers we don’t want others to find out about ahead of time. I am not sure what else it /can/ be used for, besides RP planning? If there are other ways to use it, I’d like to know, but I am not really sure of anything else I’d use it for.
In reply to Rain’s post:
You do know that you’re making assumptions, right? The interest of leaders in such a forum is exactly what is being measured, not sure why you’re trying to predict the outcome. You also seem to scorn people being interested in their own linkshells, which I very much disagree with. I think finding a group you can RP with and have fun is mostly why the RPC exists in the first place. On top of that, I do not think ‘the community’ is in shambles any more so than the overall FFXIV playerbase. Why do you think the community is in shambles? No one ever explains this, and maybe you should in a separate thread. I know I am not the only one confused by such statements. I am not even sure what you mean by community, and what it /should/ be like in your ideal view? What would be different if it weren’t in ‘shambles’ as you call it?
I personally do not fit within the mold you’re trying to describe here for LS leaders, so it’s hard for me to connect to your generalized statements. I advise against painting anything over with a wide brush like you do in this post. Let’s focus on the actual topic at hand, instead of trying to predict how others will respond, or talk about the overall state of the community. Things like that will quickly derail the conversation.
Re: LS Leader section - Merri - 09-24-2011
I'll withdraw my post for the sake of not adding any hostility to this thread, as I definitely was not in the best of moods while writing it. However, I'd like to clear some things up.
That being said, I'd like to see people actually get on board with this, but I have a feeling it's just going to bring up a slew of the mess that was the original attempt at doing this. Word on the street is there's still animosity floating around between certain parties from those days, and if the RPC would ever hope to get full participation, those with the issues would have to be willing to address and resolve them.
Re: LS Leader section - Verence - 09-26-2011
So far as I recall, the boards weren't taken down over people not liking linkshell leaders having an exclusive forum to discuss things – if we didn’t like this, we might as well petition Square Enix to remove /tells from the game. People are going to talk to each other. It’s just going to happen.
The issue was that those forums were being used to direct setting, policy, and events of the RPC as though it were some sort of governing body with authority over its membership. THIS is what made members chafe, and THIS is what made members protest. Both sides had difficulties clearly stating concise points in the howling torrent that followed, and the boards were scrapped as they were deemed more trouble than they were worth. It didn’t help that those on one side of the matter were branded a tiny minority of troublemakers, dissidents, and not true members of the RPC. (Yet now two of those linkshells are in the so-called "big four"... Which is a little confusing.)
However, things have calmed down now. I don’t think anyone will object to linkshell leaders having a place to communicate, share, and discuss things so long as they do not abuse this privilege and attempt to institute some sort of community-wide shadow government. THAT was the heart of the matter that caused things to fall apart last time. And no, I’m not blaming those bad evil linkshell leaders; several of them were leading the protest, in fact. What happened, happened and hunting for a witch to burn will just waste wood we could use rebuilding burned bridges.
Despite this, I do think a poll probably won't help much. Am I mistaken in stating that the goal here is to get the RPC revitalized and active again? This would mean we want people who AREN'T using the site, to use the site. Yet, a poll on the site asks people who ARE using the site what would make people want to use it. The wrong people are being polled, and it doesn't really seem possible to poll the right people. I think at this point, it's time to accept that things aren't working out around here and just go ahead and try something different.
Re: LS Leader section - Merri - 09-26-2011
Verence Wrote:However, I do think a poll probably won't help much. Am I mistaken in stating that the goal here is to get the RPC revitalized and active again? This would mean we want people who AREN'T using the site, to use the site. Yet, a poll on the site asks people who ARE using the site what would make people want to use it. The wrong people are being polled, and it doesn't really seem possible to poll the right people.
This exactly. I have my doubts about spreading the word in-game, too. I tried that before with that "community night" thread and it went almost entirely ignored save for a few people. I honestly can't tell if was a lack of interest, forgetfulness, disliking me, or wanting to avoid these forums all-together.
Now, I've spent the past few months actively trying to get in touch with new roleplayers that pop up on the RPC, or ones that I find in-game. Whether by getting them into Redpearl and exposing them to multiple linkshells, or asking them what they're interested in and pointing them in the direction of linkshells that might suit them. Point being, more than once I actually heard directly from these new players that they were hesitant about joining the RPC. That they had "heard" it was just a big cesspool of drama and to be avoided, and wasn't something they wanted to get mixed in with.
...And this was somewhat recent. If those events are still this long reaching and word of it is being spread around, that's kind of a big issue. It could just be a small base that's still in that mindset, but it's impossible to know the scale of that line of thought.
Verence Wrote:I think at this point, it's time to accept that things aren't working out around here and just go ahead and try something different.
I know Castiel has put a lot of effort into these forums, but maybe it's just time for a reboot? Structuring a new forum all-together (or a re-hash of these forums) with some push and reason to have members participate. It might be on the more drastic end of the spectrum, but it'd give the community a clean slate to work with. Give people a reason to get involved again. Free of all the lifeless posts cluttering the forums, all the past bickering. Maybe even go back to the old days, when we had that journal-esque page showcasing linkshells. Could also try to put to use the ability to host linkshell forums on the RPC itself, much like what Avalon is doing. At least for newer shells in the future that don't already have forums set in stone.
More importantly, it would be a clean start for linkshell relations. We could just try to agree to leave everything that happened here on these forums (farfetched, I know) and just start new, together. Bring back the days of putting our minds together and bringing out constructive posts about RP and the world of Eorzea.
Even looking at dying games like Aion, they still have actively used RP forums. It's unfortunate that we don't have that as well.
Re: LS Leader section - Verence - 09-26-2011
I think we're thinking along similar lines. As I may have mentioned before, I'm piecing together a pretty large wall-of-text series of posts drawing on opinions and views I've gathered from the community but illness and RL busy-ness have prevented me from having it all hacked together quite yet. I'm hoping to be able to present a composite of the community's views on why the RPC isn't working and a road map for how we can get it somewhere people will be happy to use.
I'm booked solid with RL for the first half of this week though, so it may not be ready until next weekend. We'll see how it goes; hopefully it'll encourage people to start communicating more. Say what you will about past drama, RP cliqueishness, etc etc etc... I say they're all symptoms of one central problem: People aren't talking to each other and don't seem quite sure how to get started.
Re: LS Leader section - Kylin - 09-26-2011
Rain Wrote:That they had "heard" it was just a big cesspool of drama and to be avoided, and wasn't something they wanted to get mixed in with.
This is a huge problem I run into as well. People “hear†things and jump to conclusions about something as a result. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve personally been judged by people I’ve never engaged with just because they’ve “heard†from their leader or other members that I’m a “bad person†or "been involved in most drama" (even though I've been involved in very little community drama in comparison to others and only get associated with it because of my 'status' here). Really? Are people really so wishy-washy that they can’t formulate their own opinions AFTER they get to know someone or something? Since when is hearsay the word of God? Since when is it okay to listen to strictly one side of the story and base one’s judgment solely on that? I’m sure this is a problem leaders on the other side of the fence have dealt with as well though. And if this is an issue on a personal level, it's not too farfetched to be a problem on a larger scale (such as views on the RPC as a whole). But meh, what can really be done about it?
I’m not opposed to a reboot, though I strongly disagree with the opinions that the RPC has "failed" at any point in time (even now). It still brings in new RPers and directs them to RP shells. And it's still the only large-scale RP base recognized by the larger non-RP community. It's simply not as active as it used to be (but neither are other large fan sites either). The tools available to us are quite extensive. The premier fan sites like Zam, Eorzeapedia, and Core have all told me that they're more than happy to help us when needed. We would likely even stand a chance at becoming a "premier" site to Square Enix themselves if we actually could manage to come together as a community like we were pre-launch.
There are a couple of things regarding a "reboot." I’ll just come out and make it official. I’ve been trying to get out of this RPC admin role for 7 months now. No joke. Brin was meant to replace me until he went MIA. The moderation team went MIA, most/all of them quitting the game entirely. The attempt to get new moderators failed because there weren’t enough “nominations†in that still stickied thread in the lounge. I think all in that thread but Sha have since quit the game. Thus, every time I try to get out of this role, I’m forced to stay in it longer just to keep things afloat. So if we do go through with a reboot, I’m not passing up the chance to get the hell out of dodge >.>. I have my own flock to look after now anyway. That’s not to say I won’t support the rebooted version. But I won’t administrate it. There are a gazillion reasons as to why, but that's irrelevant. I'm not exactly well liked by a small minority anyway so it'll probably be for the best regardless
. My second concern is our vast array of resources gained from over a year of existence. We have over 1,100 registered role-players. Less than 50 of those are spam bots since I try to delete those as quickly as I see them. Less than 25 are secondary accounts. So at the end of the day, that’s still over 1,000 role-players (though probably about 80+% of them have quit the game). As PS3 launch comes closer, it would be nice to be able to send out a fancy mass email to showcase the changes of the game and in the community in an attempt to bring some of them back and breath some more life into the RP community. Then there’s of course the gazillion threads of information, character stories, profiles, etc. How do we “reboot†without decimating all of these valuable resources? And how do we "reboot" without weakening the overall image of the RPC? I've seen attempts to unite RPers after an MMO launches. Those attempts rarely, if ever, succeed (hence why I launched this project well in advance of the game's launch).
The FF14 RP community is in a very unique position in comparison to other MMOs, for a lot of different reasons. But at the end of the day, all it takes is one small misstep at this critical stage and everything can be blown to hell. So proceeding with caution is very important.
Re: LS Leader section - Eva - 09-26-2011
This thread seems to have gone off topic a bit. If there's an effort underway to bulldoze things and start anew, perhaps that's best discussed on a separate forum? I was of the impression that this is simply a discussion about adding a new forum to the RPC. Baby steps to success. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
To those who voted no, I would be curious about the reasons why.
I voted "Yes with some restrictions".
While I won't list any particular restrictions, I will ask a few follow-up type questions:
1. Should this leaders forum be public (that is read-only to all RPC members, writeable by leaders)?
2. How are "leaders" defined? (gold star, silver star, any limitation on members? as it was before I believe the gold star person and one appointed officer were chosen, though there are far fewer communities nowadays than there were back then)
3. How is a RP linkshell defined? (that was, as I recall, the issue we ran into last time. Non-RP linkshells wanted to be involved, as did RP linkshells on other servers.)
4. What about freelancers?
I'll go on to say that I think if this is implemented, these questions all need to be answered in advance so that there is no ambiguity "after the fact." This forum should not exist for the purposes of discussing policy and such. It should be a round table forum to talk openly about cross-linkshell activities. As "representation" should not matter, I see no reason to limit the number of "leaders per linkshell" to two as was done in the past (though there probably should be some reasonable limitation). I also see no reason to include non-RP linkshells or RP linkshells from other servers as it would seem senseless to do so since they would not participate. Freelancers should also not need representation here, as such a thing would likely be moot. The only exception to that I can think of would be if a freelancer for some reason wanted to organize some kind of an event. I'm not sure how exactly something like this could be handled. Perhaps temporary 'leader forum' access could be granted to help facilitate this. Further discussion would likely be needed to iron out these points.
Re: LS Leader section - Gospel Gestalt - 09-26-2011
I voted no. Verences first post pretty much wrapped up a lot of how I felt about this. I feel this poll isn't needed. I think it's polling the wrong people and also If people are looking to plan cross over events and tie in storylines, then why not just use the Assembly Room section we're using now since the description states "RP-related discussions and inquiries, storyline --planning/discussion--, etc."
Going abit off topic with my own opinion here.
I honestly think going for a leadership section is wasting unnecessary energy and given how things have went in the past, I'm pretty sure all that will do is revive old hatred and drama. Plus everyone already has all the resources needed at their disposal in this very section for RP event planning/cross-over/and future shell creation. It's just up to everyone to utilize it.
Also from a spectators view, I personally think RP around the server is relatively fine at the moment. It still exists, It's just a matter of getting out there and actually talking to the people. However though, I think the problem which has people so upset is that people can't seem to make a new shell or event as easily as they could in the past. Now that the servers matured some, most people who still play are comfortable with the shells they're currently in and don't wish to branch out or shell hop after finding their niche group. I'm not saying everyone is guilty of this, that's just my view on it. And given how small the server is, I think it's just one of those things where people will either have try hard to persuade or just wait till more people come along after making their characters and then attempt once more.
Re: LS Leader section - SamusKnight2K - 09-26-2011
As someone who rarely ever visits anymore I'll just state why. Drama. Drama and from what it was at the beginning, judgement. People were quick to look at something and judge it without really giving it a chance. Drama between linkshells began and others stepped out. Over time the RPC became a place that people had thought of as elitists who governed RP their ways and shunned you if you thought otherwise. This isn't my view on it, but from what I have heard as well as to why others wouldn't use it. For me personally it was due to a plan regarding playing a character out as a Miqo'te male. Majority of the community back then shunned it, I even got private messages saying "You do this and we won't RP with you" and ultimately I scrapped the idea. Nearly 7 months later I said to hell with it and did the plan. As it turns out people were actually supportive of it and loved the idea. Had I not listened to the community back then and done what I had initially done I wouldn't have created a character I wasn't happy with and ultimately deleted later on.
The issue back then was everyone was trying to make specific "standards" on what should be allowed, and how it should be done without giving it a chance. This likely became as to why others left the RPC or no longer use it. But back on the topic (Sorry for a major rant there.) having an LS leader section I think would be a bad idea. I can't honestly state why, but reading some of the reasons people have there I'd have to agree. Overall however, I'm undecided on it.
Re: LS Leader section - Merri - 09-27-2011
SamusKnight2k Wrote:I even got private messages saying "You do this and we won't RP with you" and ultimately I scrapped the idea.I am incredibly sorry you had to deal with something like that. That's just a shining example of an attitude not to carry if you're a Roleplayer. It's understandable to want to place canon restrictions - ones that are clearly laid out in-game. People going a step beyond that and trying to submit other players to RP to their liking should never be tolerated within an open community. If you want to tell some one what to do, you ought to make your own community to do so in. That being said, it leads me on to my next point(s).
SamusKnight2k Wrote:Drama
This is why I feel a reboot is more or less needed. The RPC is stained with that stigma, and I don't think it's going to be an easy thing to remove - let alone even be possible. A lot of roleplayers aren't known for being fickle people. If there would be a reboot, it would give us a chance to lay down some ground rules and heavily enforce those through a crack team of moderators in an attempt to keep the forums drama free. Not RP rules, obviously, but community rules - like what any healthy community will have. No bickering and fighting on the forums, and more importantly in our case - no attempting to pigeonhole people into your way of roleplaying. That can be left to private forums for individual linkshells who want to impose stricter rules.
If a new forum were kept open-minded and free of judgmental views, it would be a much more nurturing and welcoming atmosphere for everyone involved. We just don't have that here anymore it seems.
Lastly, in light of various points brought up on this thread, I'm changing my vote to being against the idea. The main reason being that I don't think it's so much us needing a place for leaders to congregate, as I think it's an issue of us needing a place for the community to congregate and feel both welcome and safe.