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+--- Thread: Lore on cross class abilities (/showthread.php?tid=11131)
Lore on cross class abilities - Temmi - 04-16-2015
Hey, everyone! An interesting discussion came up today, and I was hoping to get some good sources or information on the subject. Tried Googling and searching through these forums, but couldn't find anything useful!
So the topic of the day is: What is the lore on cross class abilities?
If a Paladin has "Cure" as a cross ability mechanically, must they have trained as a conjurer to tap this ability in character?
If an Arcanist or Scholar has equipped "Stoneskin" as a cross class ability, can they use this through their fairy, or must they also have trained as a conjurer specifically?
I tend to stick more closely to lore, so I'm not willing to accept "nothing says they can't use cure without training as a conjurer." To me, this proves nothing, and I take this to mean that there's no basis for such a thing. (not debating about my roleplay ideology here, just stating this so people know my stance)
Thanks in advance!!
RE: Lore on cross class abilities - Melkire - 04-16-2015
Generally speaking, many gameplay elements don't necessarily translate to narrative/lore/what-have-you. This is one of those gray areas. I'm not at all surprised that you didn't find anything on the subject, because unless I'm mistaken there isn't anything to find.
My personal approach is to look at a character's capabilities. Is Character A capable of X, Y, and Z? If yes, are they always / should they always be capable of X, Y, and Z? As an example, I find myself against the concept of cure-slinging pugilists on the principle that any such character would have needed training and/or inborn talent at conjury in addition to their physical skills. If a student from Stillglade Fane traveled to Ul'dah and attended lessons at the pugilists' guild, though? Fair game!
Cross-class skills from job subclasses, IMO, make far more sense as guidelines for in-character capabilities than cross-classing as a base class (which basically lets you take anything from ANYWHERE, hello Blizzard II casting lancers).
RE: Lore on cross class abilities - ChewableMorphine - 04-16-2015
Don't wanna sound dismissive, but I think it's really just remembering how to do something and applying it to another class. PLD uses cure because he learned it, doesn't need super high mental strain or a catalyst to produce it. Stoneskin can be used along because it's just another spell used through a different means of casting.Â
...But then you have WAR's using Death Blossom, a 4-500 pound tank leaping into the air hurling knives everywhere.
RE: Lore on cross class abilities - Temmi - 04-16-2015
So then, is it generally accepted that in order to use a cross-class ability, you should have trained in the art you are borrowing from? (i.e. if a Paladin wants to use Cure ICly, should they have ICly spent some time in Stillglade Fane to learn the art?)
RE: Lore on cross class abilities - Kalooeh - 04-16-2015
Far as I know Paladins knowing healing magic is normal enough with games so I imagine not really a big deal?
I mean you need to know at least basic conjury (and end up with cure, protect, raise... which is common paladin abilities in other games) to get the class in the game so even icly seems like something paladins would need to know/be able to do.
Conjury isn't the only class that has healing abilities, even if it's best known for it. So you could very well just say it's part of the paladin training process to learn it without actually taking the time to learn conjury as well.
If you want to add that in you can, but be easy enough to work around it.
RE: Lore on cross class abilities - ChewableMorphine - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 04:14 PM)Temariah Wrote: So then, is it generally accepted that in order to use a cross-class ability, you should have trained in the art you are borrowing from? (i.e. if a Paladin wants to use Cure ICly, should they have ICly spent some time in Stillglade Fane to learn the art?)
I'd like to think so, yeah.
RE: Lore on cross class abilities - Hyakki - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 04:10 PM)☆Flynt Reddard☆ Wrote: ...But then you have WAR's using Death Blossom, a 4-500 pound tank leaping into the air hurling knives everywhere.
I can cross-class Death Blossom? I CAN CROSS CLASS DEATH BLOSSOM!!!
THANK YOU ANIME MAN! You have made me a happy MRD!
RE: Lore on cross class abilities - Faye - 04-16-2015
Melkire pretty much summed up my thoughts. I think it's important to remember most of us don't RP our character's abilities as identical to the in game mechanics of our class/job. In fact, game mechanics typically play very little into role-play in general.
RE: Lore on cross class abilities - Melkire - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 04:26 PM)Mamushi Wrote:(04-16-2015, 04:10 PM)☆Flynt Reddard☆ Wrote: ...But then you have WAR's using Death Blossom, a 4-500 pound tank leaping into the air hurling knives everywhere.
I can cross-class Death Blossom? I CAN CROSS CLASS DEATH BLOSSOM!!!
THANK YOU ANIME MAN! You have made me a happy MRD!
This is one of those "should character A always be capable of feat X" moments.
Leaping into the air and throwing that many knives, while already anime-seque in and of itself, further stretches willing suspension of disbelief when you're doing so while weighed down by that much armor.
RE: Lore on cross class abilities - Yssen - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 04:14 PM)Temariah Wrote: So then, is it generally accepted that in order to use a cross-class ability, you should have trained in the art you are borrowing from? (i.e. if a Paladin wants to use Cure ICly, should they have ICly spent some time in Stillglade Fane to learn the art?)
You need to know how to use the Cure spell, but that does not necessarily mean that you have had to spend time at the Fane. The casting guilds (from a lore stand point) are much more about a character's approach to casting, not the individual effects of that casting. A THM casts cure the THM way, by channeling the energy from himself, etc. etc. etc. Yar.
RE: Lore on cross class abilities - D'aito Kuji - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 04:33 PM)Faye Wrote: Melkire pretty much summed up my thoughts. I think it's important to remember most of us don't RP our character's abilities as identical to the in game mechanics of our class/job. In fact, game mechanics typically play very little into role-play in general.
^^ This.
RE: Lore on cross class abilities - Val - 04-16-2015
I'd definitely say to look as very little to gameplay as a roleplay platform as possible. As many people have listed above, while SE tries to make their game design decisions loosely fit in with lore (almost lazily so, imo), it never really translates well. If you look directly to gameplay for abilities, then you must also take into account that your character can really only do a handful of attacks.Â
I like to think that our characters are far more lifelike and fluid and, rather than just doing the same three attacks over and over, can switch things up and improvise and use skills that aren't necessarily in the game itself.
My casters, for example, use spells and things that aren't in game. I feel that this kind of improvisation is generally accepted and helps bring the characters, and the world, more to life. It also allows a great deal of fun and variety in combat-based RP as a whole.
As for your question, yes, generally your character would need to be somehow trained in that skill. If they're really fit, you could perhaps balance it and say that they have the ability to mend light wounds, but it tires them out. Or maybe they're mediocre in both or something. It's really up to you and however you think you will have fun!
When I try to "multiclass" or take on skills of different techniques, especially when it comes to a physical character having magical abilities, I try to balance them out by making one weaker than the other. It helps to add flavor to the character, I feel, and gives them a bit of a weakness to be exploited should others notice =)
RE: Lore on cross class abilities - Warren Castille - 04-16-2015
Re: cross-class CNJ and THM skills
Doesn't conjury require nature to channel through? Similarly, thaumaturgy requires a gem to cast through. I'm 99% sure that my Excalibur isn't made out of wood, and the gem on the hilt is probably not cutting it for blizzard spells.
My thoughts? Cross-class is fluff and Game Mechanic only.
RE: Lore on cross class abilities - Val - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 05:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Re: cross-class CNJ and THM skills
Doesn't conjury require nature to channel through? Similarly, thaumaturgy requires a gem to cast through. I'm 99% sure that my Excalibur isn't made out of wood, and the gem on the hilt is probably not cutting it for blizzard spells.
My thoughts? Cross-class is fluff and Game Mechanic only.
I think conjury does, but you can expend your own soul to use it instead. It's very life-threatening, but I think it's possible? I can't say I'm 100% sure on that, though.
Edit for afterthought:
As for the gem thing, my caster has the gems either in the gloves he wears or he uses the enchanted ink, either through his book or as drawings he puts all over his body (discount tattoos) before going out on something he deems dangerous.
RE: Lore on cross class abilities - Hyakki - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 04:36 PM)Melkire Wrote: This is one of those "should character A always be capable of feat X" moments.You can jump/climb just fine in some armor (WAR AF doesn't look like it lends itself well to feats of agility). A look around Limsa shows that Marauders in the area don't wear much in the way of armor save for a helmet (and gauntlets/greaves for the MRD guildmaster), you don't see them jumping around but they're wearing light enough attire to do so. The visuals for DB look silly with them, anyway.
Leaping into the air and throwing that many knives, while already anime-seque in and of itself, further stretches willing suspension of disbelief when you're doing so while weighed down by that much armor.
I wouldn't use it for RP purposes. Death Blossom is bad. Why would I throw down my axe when its going to do more for me in a fight than a bunch of haphazardly thrown knives that I can trip over/onto or have thrown back at me? I'm enjoying it for OOC shenanigans. I am still a very happy knife-flinging MRD.