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+--- Thread: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') (/showthread.php?tid=11487)
RE: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') - Aduu Avagnar - 05-08-2015
(05-08-2015, 05:51 AM)Blue Wrote:but... but... no one here has made that claim....(05-08-2015, 05:44 AM)Nako Wrote:(05-08-2015, 05:41 AM)Blue Wrote: I hope I don't get banned for daring saying this, but trying to impose your rules on people you can just choose not to interact with is not so different from all those people who bash on who doesn't follow their religion, diet, or sexual orientation. I try to look at it this way at least, when I decide my words to use with someone who has different tastes than my own. It helps me open my eyes a lot.please re-read my post a couple up...
then re-read it again, and as many times as you need to, to understand this very simple point, as I am not sure how many times I can phrase this so that it is understood:
We are not imposing rules. We are restricting who we roleplay with, no one else. You can play what you want. We do not have to like it. We have a choice whether we Roleplay with you. You have a choice who you Roleplay with. We are not trying to force anyone to roleplay anything other than what they choose to roleplay. We are simply picking roleplay partners that fit our interpretation of the lore.
this post is also pertinent to the thread at hand:
How to properly react to RP you don't like? accept that you guys aren't going to mesh and move on.
I know and I was supporting you. My response was addressing to those who are saying that "others are just wrong and shouldn't do it because of this and this and this.". I am sorry for contributing to the thread derail.
As of back to topic, I already have my response back in the first pages, and it pretty much said the same things you did now.
head hurts... confusion spreading....
RE: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') - Blue - 05-08-2015
(05-08-2015, 05:52 AM)Nakoli Chalahko Wrote:(05-08-2015, 05:51 AM)Blue Wrote:but... but... no one here has made that claim....(05-08-2015, 05:44 AM)Nako Wrote:(05-08-2015, 05:41 AM)Blue Wrote: I hope I don't get banned for daring saying this, but trying to impose your rules on people you can just choose not to interact with is not so different from all those people who bash on who doesn't follow their religion, diet, or sexual orientation. I try to look at it this way at least, when I decide my words to use with someone who has different tastes than my own. It helps me open my eyes a lot.please re-read my post a couple up...
then re-read it again, and as many times as you need to, to understand this very simple point, as I am not sure how many times I can phrase this so that it is understood:
We are not imposing rules. We are restricting who we roleplay with, no one else. You can play what you want. We do not have to like it. We have a choice whether we Roleplay with you. You have a choice who you Roleplay with. We are not trying to force anyone to roleplay anything other than what they choose to roleplay. We are simply picking roleplay partners that fit our interpretation of the lore.
this post is also pertinent to the thread at hand:
How to properly react to RP you don't like? accept that you guys aren't going to mesh and move on.
I know and I was supporting you. My response was addressing to those who are saying that "others are just wrong and shouldn't do it because of this and this and this.". I am sorry for contributing to the thread derail.
As of back to topic, I already have my response back in the first pages, and it pretty much said the same things you did now.
head hurts... confusion spreading....
I agree that the best thing to do is just walk away. IC should not be used as a way to leak in your OOC disapproval of what the other roleplayer is doing, like what that guy did to me in the Quicksands. And yes, I'm positive it was OOC leaking, because initially he approached me very kindly. Soon as I ICly told him I wasn't an adventurer, I started receiving tells. And after the tells, his IC behavior completely swapped over and he told me that I had to leave because it wasn't my place to be.
Don't be that guy, everyone :/
RE: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') - No Longer Exists - 05-08-2015
*The little snoozey bubble protruding from the hat pops*
*Blink Blink*
*Yawn*
Did anyone notice the curious factors of this current part of the conversation? Lore debates, what constitutes law and what doesn't, who is whom, etc?
I hope that, by now, tempers have ebbed some because I saw some alarming leans from certain people. Leans that skirted dangerously close to socio-political "classist" statements. More intriguing (to me) is that these were NOT being instigated by the obvious parties.
Thus far, with the exception of the derailed train there, the topic has remained on point and postings are on task, which is wonderful. Keep up the good work.
I'd like to caution you readers and writers though, that having the "Lore Debate" here is further segregating an already torn group of people. With the exception of an outright demand made on one poster, which is by and large not appropriate for the community OR the forum itself, you've all let cooler heads prevail. We all understand and agree that the "Lore Debate" is hot button AND relevant to the OP topic, but it is NOT the OP topic and I urge you to remember that.
I suggest dropping the "Lore Debate" here, with the exception of mild (<---keyword) reference. Otherwise, have at it. There are good things coming from the topic discussion, even if there is no clear resolution.Â
Cheers.
In regards to Blue,
Dealing in absolutes, even absolutes of decency, is against the very ethical platform of inclusive behavior. While funny and sometimes appropriate, statements like "Don't be a dick" or "Don't be -that guy-" are uniformly stereotyping and should have no place in these social ethics discussions. They are just as damaging as a "lrn 2 rp, gtfo" tell, because you are imposing an imperative. We can only SUGGEST changes to behaviors and adapt individually based on how pertinent and relevant such suggestions are to our personal code. Or don't, because it doesn't affect us.
While I agree that you being berated in tells was wholly inappropriate (See: my personal opinion), it is not inherently wrong for two reasons. 1> The individual expressed their opinion and concerns with you and 2> did so privately (This is based on how your post is worded, I do not know details). These are two things we've been advocating (as a group). The format used to express those opinions and concerns may or may not be considered inappropriate to others you tell that story based on their outlook on language.
Whether or not it was OOC leakage is irrelevant in my opinion, the individual decided (as is their right) that they no longer wanted to RP with you and took steps accordingly albeit (again, my opinion) rudely so. I feel that we cannot fault him or her for that. So it really boils down to the language used in the specific instance.
RE: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') - Blue - 05-08-2015
(05-08-2015, 07:24 AM)Black Hat Wrote: *The little snoozey bubble protruding from the hat pops*
*Blink Blink*
*Yawn*
Did anyone notice the curious factors of this current part of the conversation? Lore debates, what constitutes law and what doesn't, who is whom, etc?
I hope that, by now, tempers have ebbed some because I saw some alarming leans from certain people. Leans that skirted dangerously close to socio-political "classist" statements. More intriguing (to me) is that these were NOT being instigated by the obvious parties.
Thus far, with the exception of the derailed train there, the topic has remained on point and postings are on task, which is wonderful. Keep up the good work.
I'd like to caution you readers and writers though, that having the "Lore Debate" here is further segregating an already torn group of people. With the exception of an outright demand made on one poster, which is by and large not appropriate for the community OR the forum itself, you've all let cooler heads prevail. We all understand and agree that the "Lore Debate" is hot button AND relevant to the OP topic, but it is NOT the OP topic and I urge you to remember that.
I suggest dropping the "Lore Debate" here, with the exception of mild (<---keyword) reference. Otherwise, have at it. There are good things coming from the topic discussion, even if there is no clear resolution.Â
Cheers.
In regards to Blue,
Dealing in absolutes, even absolutes of decency, is against the very ethical platform of inclusive behavior. While funny and sometimes appropriate, statements like "Don't be a dick" or "Don't be -that guy-" are uniformly stereotyping and should have no place in these social ethics discussions. They are just as damaging as a "lrn 2 rp, gtfo" tell, because you are imposing an imperative. We can only SUGGEST changes to behaviors and adapt individually based on how pertinent and relevant such suggestions are to our personal code. Or don't, because it doesn't affect us.
While I agree that you being berated in tells was wholly inappropriate (See: my personal opinion), it is not inherently wrong for two reasons. 1> The individual expressed their opinion and concerns with you and 2> did so privately (This is based on how your post is worded, I do not know details). These are two things we've been advocating (as a group). The format used to express those opinions and concerns may or may not be considered inappropriate to others you tell that story based on their outlook on language.
Whether or not it was OOC leakage is irrelevant in my opinion, the individual decided (as is their right) that they no longer wanted to RP with you and took steps accordingly albeit (again, my opinion) rudely so. I feel that we cannot fault him or her for that. So it really boils down to the language used in the specific instance.
I understand, though they didn't just walk away. They wanted me to leave the Quicksand (and I had to, because he wouldn't let go that I was not "allowed" in a building that to his theory was only for adventurers). There is quite a difference in that. I don't think it is an acceptable behavior, and I don't think anyone should feel compelled to chase someone away (if not out of your own house, I guess?). That is what I meant with "don't be that guy". No one should do that, no matter what.
If it helps, my character was not offensive in the slightest (she was a mom looking for her lost child, and wanted to hire an adventurer because the authorities weren't being of sufficient help). But I don't think it should be relevant. I was in a public area, doing nothing against the ToS, and no one should feel entitled to tell me to leave.
RE: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') - Kage - 05-08-2015
it sounds lIke one of those Ul'dah rp trolls who constantly went about harassing certain players.
They may be "playing a role" but I always found them to be just that, a troll to be ignored after reporting them for harassment. they never wanted to actually roleplay. They just want to harass you.
We're not talking about dealing with those types of people.
RE: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') - Blue - 05-08-2015
(05-08-2015, 07:42 AM)Kage Wrote: it sounds lIke one of those Ul'dah rp trolls who constantly went about harassing certain players.
They may be "playing a role" but I always found them to be just that, a troll to be ignored after reporting them for harassment. they never wanted to actually roleplay. They just want to harass you.
We're not talking about dealing with those types of people.
I don't know, the way in which he approached me seemed pretty legit, and his grammar was clean, he actually was putting efforts in his wording and speech... till I said I was just a goldsmith and not an adventurer. Then again, I am always slow on recognizing trolls, so you could be right too. I don't think I'll ever know.
RE: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') - No Longer Exists - 05-08-2015
(05-08-2015, 07:39 AM)Blue Wrote: I understand, though they didn't just walk away. They wanted me to leave the Quicksand (and I had to, because he wouldn't let go that I was not "allowed" in a building that to his theory was only for adventurers). There is quite a difference in that. I don't think it is an acceptable behavior, and I don't think anyone should feel compelled to chase someone away (if not out of your own house, I guess?). That is what I meant with "don't be that guy". No one should do that, no matter what.
If it helps, my character was not offensive in the slightest (she was a mom looking for her lost child, and wanted to hire an adventurer because the authorities weren't being of sufficient help). But I don't think it should be relevant. I was in a public area, doing nothing against the ToS, and no one should feel entitled to tell me to leave.
Ahh, that makes a lot more sense. I am not certain what the ToS has to do with it, but how exactly could they force you to leave? I am not denying that you were being harassed, I'm only wondering out loud over specific details.
There is no difference in walking away and wanting you to leave, however. Taking out your personal feelings from the situation, those are the two of three viable options for ending the situation. The third being blacklist and ignore. He expressed an opinion that your character shouldn't be there, he didn't kick you off the game or forcibly remove you in any way. His opinion and actions made you uncomfortable, yes. However, you had the power to remove that discomfort yourself and chose not to?
RE: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') - Warren Castille - 05-08-2015
This whole overnight discussion has been an interesting example of people arguing emotionally rather than logically.
As has been mentioned, the Chosen Few are the Padjals. There's official word-of-god lore that the only non-Padjal White Mage is the Warrior of Light, for now. There may be other ways to channel succor, but they also phrase that method as being "nefarious."
Also, to wit: A White Mage is someone Chosen by the Elementals to wield Succor and protect the Shroud. If you steal Succor, you are not a White Mage. That would be like me stealing a cop's badge and gun and declaring myself a police officer. It doesn't really work that way (and the folks in charge will probably be pretty pissed!).
White Mages got a short straw for roleplay. Every other class is a one-of-many situations: Monks have a dedicated faction trying to rekindle the arts. Warrior is the same way. Paladins come in two flavors for RP: Sultansworn, which are glorified bodyguards, and Free Paladins, which are just acknowledged adventurers by Ul'dah trained in a specific fighting style/philosophy.
Black Magic is a forbidden art, but there are those who practice it. Summoning magic is difficult-but-not-impossible to rationalize due to the prevalence of Soulstones (the egis are a different story). Scholars are the same way: There's means to find Soulstones or the Fae of Nym. Dragoons are an entire arm of Ishgarian war effort, and while the Azure Dragoon is the creme de la creme, there's plenty of not-Azure Dragoons dragoons. Hell, there's a difference between Capital D Dragoon and dragoon, the latter just being someone Ishgard acknowledges has killed a dragon.
Ninja is slightly more difficult to explain for non-Doman roleplayers, but it's also practically a handwave for anyone from the doomed country. Did I forget anybody? Oh, Bards. That's even looser; I've never met anyone ICly claiming to be the Godsbow, just folks who sing songs (which isn't even really a Capital B Bard thing).
White Mages are Padjal. Have been since the fifth(?) Umbral Era. The only White Mages are the most exceptional ones, a race of higher beings created specifically by the Elementals (so they say) to protect the Shroud. Hundreds of years went by before a non-Padjal was permitted to become a White Mage. It's kind of a really big deal.
Again, nobody in this thread said NO, WHITE MAGES ARE WRONG, I WILL NOT ALLOW THEM THEY HAVE TO CHANGE. People, myself included, said that people are free to roleplay however they like, and as an audience we're allowed to parse what we want to keep in our own headcanons. That's sort of the definition of the middle ground. No one's saying they won't RP with a White Mage. No one's saying they'll retcon them from existing. We're just saying that, in light of keeping our own views and interpretations of the lore straight (just as White Mage roleplayers have kept their own interpretations!) people are permitted to nudge events into making sense for their world.
Full disclosure: If someone comes to the Grindstone claiming to be a White Mage and wanting to heal, I'm not going to deny them that experience. Just don't be upset if I remember you as a very talented Conjurer later on. Is that fair?
RE: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') - Kellach Woods - 05-08-2015
(05-08-2015, 07:57 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Also, to wit: A White Mage is someone Chosen by the Elementals to wield Succor and protect the Shroud. If you steal Succor, you are not a White Mage. That would be like me stealing a cop's badge and gun and declaring myself a police officer. It doesn't really work that way (and the folks in charge will probably be pretty pissed!).
While the Padjal WOULD be pretty pissed, I'm pretty sure anyone doing that would gather the ire of the Elementals because they stole Succor (assuming they can even detect that!) rather than pretend they're white mages.
And all that person has to do is not be in the Shroud and the Padjal are essentially... completely useless. None of them would pull an A-Towa-Cant these days.
And let's be real a lot of us glamour our own gear so we don't have to swap outfits when we're actually doing content. I don't think I've ever referred to Kell as a Warrior WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE MANLIEST/DUMBEST RP EVER.
RE: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') - Warren Castille - 05-08-2015
(05-08-2015, 07:59 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: While the Padjal WOULD be pretty pissed, I'm pretty sure anyone doing that would gather the ire of the Elementals because they stole Succor (assuming they can even detect that!) rather than pretend they're white mages.
And all that person has to do is not be in the Shroud and the Padjal are essentially... completely useless. None of them would pull an A-Towa-Cant these days.
That's the challenge: We just don't know right now. Attempting to fill in the blanks runs the risk of setting yourself up for a barrage from the retcon cannons (what are the odds of there being a thread on that right here?!) and could muddle things even further.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. For all we know the 3.0 WHM story will entail people managing to steal Succor undetected and the whole thing being a growth arc about people using that to heal.
Or it could be the Shroud returning to full Green Wrath capability and extincting all who attempt to dabble with it.
RE: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') - Kellach Woods - 05-08-2015
I don't think they'd go that route unless they want the WHM story to be even more isolated from the MSQ. Full green wraith capacities would mess with way too much.
RE: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') - Warren Castille - 05-08-2015
(05-08-2015, 08:04 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: I don't think they'd go that route unless they want the WHM story to be even more isolated from the MSQ. Full green wraith capacities would mess with way too much.
I'm just spinning hypothetical situations. Until they reveal what's on the table, everything is potentially on the table.
Is it possible that someone was secreted away by a secret Padjal traininer, who entrusted a new student with Succor before passing away? Sure, why not.
Would anyone -even in Gridania- ever believe such a thing? There's strong in-game belief that Padjal = White Mage. Go ahead, run around IRL and tell people that you're actually the lost cousin of <name a famous person>. See how many believe you.
This sort of goes back to what we were discussing in the original post: If someone presents an incredulous story in-character, and people react with disbelief in-character, it is incorrect to assume you're being bullied OOCly. As a stereotype, White Mages exist in the Shroud. They're all Padjal. They've got scary powers. The trees will eat you. These are the things the common people would know. Presenting to the contrary would be as effective as it is in real life, which is to say it isn't effective.
Honestly, I'd expect similar responses for people claiming to be Dragoons outside of Ishgard, or people playing Sultansworn outside of Ul'dah. All of these would likely be met with "What are you doing here? Don't you have a job?"
RE: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') - ArmachiA - 05-08-2015
That's true, and something people don't bring up a lot in White Mage Lore. They aren't just healers, they are keepers and guiders of the Shroud. Those with the White Mage title are to make decisions to guide the entire City-State which is a huge responsibility. It's fair to assume if you are sitting in Ul'dah saying your a White Mage, you'll be met with eyebrow raises. If you say you're one in Gridania, you may be met with a lot of hostility.
That's all perfectly reasonable IC stuff. You're saying your basically leading an entire "country" - who is going to believe that so easily if they've never even heard your name?
I think questioning the validity of someone's story ICly is perfectly reasonable, honestly, we do it all the time in the OOC world.
RE: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') - Kage - 05-08-2015
Honestly when I see, "WHY WON'T YOU RP WITH ME JUST BECAUSE I WANT TO RP A WHM," it sounds like "WHY WON'T YOU RP WITH ME JUST BECAUSE I WANT TO ERP"
except the latter usually comes unsolicited.
As roleplayers, we all have a fucking limited time availability. We're not always able to just RP with -everyone-. We are allowed to choose who we RP with while not telling you how to RP or what to RP.
I say this while having only ever outright refused the certain trolls or the people who only wanted to ERP with Kage'qote. I am in the situations where a few people will want to RP with me, WHO I HAVE SENT TUMBLR NOTES AND STUFF ABOUT WANTING TO RP WITH THEM, and having a hard time with... following through. There will be times when I have to say "I messed up and put myself in a situation where Kage can't RP with these characters just right now." ... I have had to do it several times this week and I feel horrible about it.
You may just dislike their roleplaying style and it is perfectly ok to excuse yourself from it while.not.harassing.the.other.player. Even people annoyed by it will interact and find a way to excuse themselves. It happens. There's so many other people to RP with I just don't see why people are so concerned with the few who decide that they won't RP with someone while being polite about it.
RE: How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy') - Nelson Herrmann - 05-08-2015
I  like where this thread  is going,  although I  have a  question.  What about scholars?  Do they even exist  anymore?  Is it possible for people to  just  pick it up and  study on it?  I'd  like to delve deeper into  their  lore.  I'd  appreciate  an explanation,  or a link of some sort!