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+--- Thread: Monks, Monks, Monks! (/showthread.php?tid=12023)
Monks, Monks, Monks! - Yangh - 06-11-2015
After derailing a thread earlier (I'm very sorry about that!) I wanted to make a new thread here dedicated to the lore of Monks. Not so much the origin, but more the way they work.
Chakra's.
Its confirmed by the NPC Erik that chakra is aether but... why do they need a large amount of concentrated aether to unlock them? How do they stay unlocked? Are they pools? refinement points? Why do they stay open after being opened?
How do they use it? Why do they use it that way? do they continually draw on aether externally when they fight or is it internally only?
My character will beginning his painful journey to Monkhood come Heavensward... I need all the info I can get!
I'm looking at you Sounsyy, Berrod!
Halp!
RE: Monks, Monks, Monks! - Melkire - 06-11-2015
Pffft. Just do a little digging.
Crossposting:
(06-11-2015, 11:57 AM)Melkire Wrote: http://xivdb.com/?quest/66597/Brother-from-Another-Mother
Quote:The chakra is the seat of that energy. It is a sacred place. It can be opened, and the life force within controlled.
Chakra exist in all that lives─in all beings. Yet not all beings can open them.
Much training is needed. And great discipline. With these, the life force be commanded.
There are those who require no training. Their inner strength is such that it forces the chakra open. I have heard of this happening. But never have I seen it─until now.
...
We stand on an ancient battleground. A great war was waged here. The spirit of the fight lingers. The aether reaches for the chakra. It aids in their opening. That is why we monks seek such lands.
http://xivdb.com/?quest/66599/A-Slave-to-the-Aether
Quote:I hoped to arrive before you. But I see I am late. This land's power has gone to you. There is nothing left for me here.
It is as I told you. We monks travel where aether flows strong. There we train. The power of the land enters us. Thus our chakra expand.
This bonding causes great unrest. The land's energy becomes unstable. It will enter no other until it calms.
I feel nothing here. As you would feel nothing at Finesand Banks. That land bonded to my chakra. And its aether is now at unrest.
RE: Monks, Monks, Monks! - Yangh - 06-11-2015
I actually just found this right before you posted it! Thanks either way though, its muchos useful. That's quite a few questions answered... now for the rest of them.
RE: Monks, Monks, Monks! - Gegenji - 06-11-2015
I'mma crosspost too!
(06-11-2015, 12:05 PM)Gegenji Wrote: As for MNKs, I like to believe that their "chakra" also serve as a manner of focus - and "opening" them is basically learning how to use those key points in one's personal aetheric flow to focus and refine aether to perform great physical feats. Whether it's one's own flow of aether, or drawing from the world around them, I am uncertain. As much as I like the idea of another method of utilizing the ambient aether, I can very neatly see the process as just being a training method to utilize one's own aetheric resources.
I wrote this while Melkire posted up his own quotes from the MNK quest line. Given that extra information, it sounds to me like they are drawing in that aether that is "aspected" towards combat and that is what "opens" their chakra. My theory is that they are effectively using that aether to bolster a point of power within one's own body - key points in their personal aetheric/life stream flow - into becoming the focii for their abilities. This allows them to refine their aether into physical feats.
All other focii presented are external, to manifest aether on an external source. The chakra are internal focii, which is why it solely affects the user. The user then uses that internal manifestation to then cave some dude's skull in.
RE: Monks, Monks, Monks! - Yangh - 06-11-2015
(06-11-2015, 12:14 PM)Gegenji Wrote: I'mma crosspost too!
(06-11-2015, 12:05 PM)Gegenji Wrote: As for MNKs, I like to believe that their "chakra" also serve as a manner of focus - and "opening" them is basically learning how to use those key points in one's personal aetheric flow to focus and refine aether to perform great physical feats. Whether it's one's own flow of aether, or drawing from the world around them, I am uncertain. As much as I like the idea of another method of utilizing the ambient aether, I can very neatly see the process as just being a training method to utilize one's own aetheric resources.
I wrote this while Melkire posted up his own quotes from the MNK quest line. Given that extra information, it sounds to me like they are drawing in that aether that is "aspected" towards combat and that is what "opens" their chakra. My theory is that they are effectively using that aether to bolster a point of power within one's own body - key points in their personal aetheric/life stream flow - into becoming the focii for their abilities. This allows them to refine their aether into physical feats.
All other focii presented are external, to manifest aether on an external source. The chakra are internal focii, which is why it solely affects the user. The user then uses that internal manifestation to then cave some dude's skull in.
Huh. That's a nice way of looking at it. Would you perhaps say that if that is the case they simply move aether from one place to another to augment the body? Or maybe flood it from head to toe?
I personally think that they would move the aether around the body where needed in order to perform their amazing feats and stay relatively unstrained in the process. This would lend to the fact that a lot of training is needed in order to do what they do based on that assumption alone, not to mention learning the forms they use in the first place.
I also wonder if each 'Fist' stance is a result of moving the aether from one place or another. Earth being full body for defense, Wind being primarily legs and Fire being anywhere that would make contact with their foe such as the fists and feet.
RE: Monks, Monks, Monks! - Gegenji - 06-11-2015
(06-11-2015, 12:19 PM)Yangh Wrote: I also wonder if each 'Fist' stance is a result of moving the aether from one place or another. Earth being full body for defense, Wind being primarily legs and Fire being anywhere that would make contact with their foe such as the fists and feet.
![[Image: 7ad.png]](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/538/345/7ad.png)
Melkire, Nako, and I are actually having quite the debate on the matter, and it seems the big difference is between internal and external expression of aetheric energy. THMs/ACNs take their internal aether and translate it into external expression through the use of an external focus. MNKs take their internal aether and translate it into internal expression through use of an internal focus - their Chakra.
The big question is if they are continually using the latent surrounding aetheric energies (like BLM), or if they only use the aforementioned "fight-aspected" aether to open their Chakra and make them into that internal focus. After which, the MNK merely draws on their own internal aetheric wellsprings, passing them through the Chakra to refine them into the purpose needed.
Nako, however, has made a valid point that the MNK doesn't seem to need to actually focus on a specific Chakra in order to perform their feats. Their aether simply goes where it's needed to bolster what is needed, so using the term "focus" to describe a Chakra may be a misnomer. Perhaps the Chakra is more like personal overclocking - using the aether from the battlefields to allow your aether to travel faster and more efficiently to perform what you need of it. And the opening of more Chakra results in a more efficient flow.
Or something.
RE: Monks, Monks, Monks! - Melkire - 06-11-2015
Widargelt's knowledge, from what I understand of the MNK job quests, seem to imply that the only time a monk taps into latent surrounding aetheric energies is when they are communing with/attuning to/meditating on/tapping into a "land," otherwise known as a particular locale. A prerequisite for said lands is that they have to have been sites of former battles or some such; I think the implication there is that there needs to have been some amount of death to result in a surplus of aether for that area. This is "the spirit of the fight lingers"; it's aether left behind from people dying and/or expending aether. A monk, in communing with the land, takes hold of that aether the way Louisoux took hold of the aether around him at Carteneau. The difference is in how it is used: a monk allows that energy to flow into him or her, and that excess effectively aids in opening the floodgates/locks that restrict a normal person from accessing chakra.
It's implied that, at all other times, a monk's expression of power is internalized use of internal energy.
Again, I cite:
http://xivdb.com/?quest/66597/Brother-from-Another-Mother
Quote:The fist is our weapon. With it, we put down our enemies. The energy within us moves the fist. The chakra is the seat of that energy.
RE: Monks, Monks, Monks! - Aduu Avagnar - 06-11-2015
(06-11-2015, 12:43 PM)Gegenji Wrote: Perhaps the Chakra is more like personal overclocking - using the aether from the battlefields to allow your aether to travel faster and more efficiently to perform what you need of it. And the opening of more Chakra results in a more efficient flow.Pretty much what I was getting at, I'll post what I wrote up here:
Quote:let me explain my point of view as such: Before opening Chakra, the Aether within the body flows through normal channels. Once they are opened,the aether reaches different areas quicker, the more chakra opened, the faster it can be accessed in that particular area of the body. You simply pull the aether to the desired location: hands for attackign with fists, legs/feet for strikes with legs, moving quicker.
I don't see it as you focus on chakra number 1 to do x,y or z, and chakra number 3 for a, b and c. Which is how it would be if the Chakra were a focus (in the noun sense)
You can, for instance, use both(Refering to the IRL buddhist Chakra info out and about): certain chakra affect flow to certain areas, so if one gets shut somehow, you loose the effectiveness for that area, as the aether flow is restricted
RE: Monks, Monks, Monks! - Yangh - 06-11-2015
There is mention to the fact that a wellspring of aether attunes to the life force of the monk present then is send all haywire for a time. This suggests it recovers for others to use further along in time.
I am left wondering if every Monk who ever attuned there has a link to it and pulls from it and any other wellspring they've attuned to when they fight. At the same time, perhaps that injection of aether is simple just to open up their chakra and that's it.
In regards to chakra, it would be interesting to know if certain chakra's are required to perform certain feats. Are Job skills learned as result of a corresponding chakra gate being opens and allowing the learning and use of it?
I feel they could learn the forms easily enough... but performing them correctly might very well need certain chakra's or even just one.
I personally like the idea that their internal aether is moved around, gathered and shaped by the chakra gates then moved to where it needs to be. Fists of Earth would be cool like that, chakra shaped aether moving to the point of damage taken in the instant it is taken to soften the blow.
[EDIT] - Welp! Two posts in the time it took me to reply!
RE: Monks, Monks, Monks! - Gegenji - 06-11-2015
(06-11-2015, 12:51 PM)Yangh Wrote: I personally like the idea that their internal aether is moved around, gathered and shaped by the chakra gates then moved to where it  needs to be.
That's what I'm currently wondering. Are the Chakra points merely faster methods of getting aether to a point in the body, or do they also serve to bolster and amplify that aether - purposing it to perform a certain function? Or is one's personal aetheric well (or life energy) enough to do the feats Monks are supposedly able to perform?
RE: Monks, Monks, Monks! - Yangh - 06-11-2015
(06-11-2015, 12:55 PM)Gegenji Wrote:(06-11-2015, 12:51 PM)Yangh Wrote: I personally like the idea that their internal aether is moved around, gathered and shaped by the chakra gates then moved to where it  needs to be.
That's what I'm currently wondering. Are the Chakra points merely faster methods of getting aether to a point in the body, or do they also serve to bolster and amplify that aether - purposing it to perform a certain function? Or is one's personal aetheric well (or life energy) enough to do the feats Monks are supposedly able to perform?
I feel that each opened chakra point serves as an additional refinement point for the body. Having more aether at your disposal doesn't necessarily equal to being more potent. More aether, same amount of potency.
I lean towards chakra points being a foci like you suggested, the more gates you have, the more aether you can pour in and the more times you can refine before you send it on its way to be used.
RE: Monks, Monks, Monks! - Gegenji - 06-11-2015
This is my current understanding of how the Chakra works - for both Monks and spellcasters (since apparently one of the NPCs in the Monk quest line considers it the same source):
There is a natural wellspring of aether that circulates through the body. This, collectively, is known as the Chakra. There are points within it - the Chakra points - that are normally closed off in most people (seven, if the MNK quest line is to be believed). Points where the aether is "aspected" for a purpose in the body.
Opening these Chakra allows access to this "aspected" aether to be used in the body much more freely, like overclocking a computer or tuning up a car. Having been opened using residual aether from battlefields, it is possible that these Chakra points also modify or amplify the aether en route to where it is needed. This is what Monks do and why they are able to perform such feats.
Meanwhile, casters just pull from this Chakra wellspring wholesale as a power source for their spells. They take this internal aetheric source to externalize it, bypassing the Chakra points and their purpose entirely. Since this is an external use of an internal aetheric source, this requires concentration and focus to re-purpose the aether into its intended form - usually of a destructive nature. Hence the items needed to focus the spell (gem or book), and the time to draw it out of the body to be utilized (cast time).
RE: Monks, Monks, Monks! - Yangh - 06-11-2015
(06-11-2015, 01:17 PM)Gegenji Wrote: This is my current understanding of how the Chakra works - for both Monks and spellcasters (since apparently one of the NPCs in the Monk quest line considers it the same source):
There is a natural wellspring of aether that circulates through the body. This, collectively, is known as the Chakra. There are points within it - the Chakra points - that are normally closed off in most people (seven, if the MNK quest line is to be believed). Points where the aether is "aspected" for a purpose in the body.
Opening these Chakra allows access to this "aspected" aether to be used in the body much more freely, like overclocking a computer or tuning up a car. Having been opened using residual aether from battlefields, it is possible that these Chakra points also modify or amplify the aether en route to where it is needed. This is what Monks do and why they are able to perform such feats.
Meanwhile, casters just pull from this Chakra wellspring wholesale as a power source for their spells. They take this internal aetheric source to externalize it, bypassing the Chakra points and their purpose entirely. Since this is an external use of an internal aetheric source, this requires concentration and focus to re-purpose the aether into its intended form - usually of a destructive nature. Hence the items needed to focus the spell (gem or book), and the time to draw it out of the body to be utilized (cast time).
That is a very nice way of looking at it and one happen to agree with. I like the idea if chakra being the internal aether and chakra gates being points of refinement and focus.
This is actually useful to me as my character will be pretty much learning about what it mean to be and perform as a Monk on his own. There will be a Gary Oak nemesis of course but hell, she doesn't want this newbie swooping in to take her aether wellsprings!
I may request that every now and again she leaves very subtle hints about what he's doing wrong or obscure instruction on what he should be doing as a sort of compass for him.
In short, i'm more so seeking a philosophy for him to explore in terms of chakra, chakra gates and the flow of aether. Your explanation seems to resonate with me a lot...
I might steal it. >.>
[EDIT] On the subject of places of power. I wonder if the Steps of Faith will count as one after the big old battle there? It'd be really cool to have all the Monk RPers turn up to duke it out for it. XD
RE: Monks, Monks, Monks! - Kyrrae L'minia - 06-11-2015
Oh, I just wanted to point out that as the quote in one of the first posts on this thread says, using battlefields to open Chakra is basically the 'shortcut' since it takes so long to open a chakra through normal discipline and focus. This is why a monk who has all 7 open chakra is so rare, since battlefields can only be used once every so long while (they never specify how long, just that it takes a long time for the aether there to resettle for a monk to use it again). And if you were to try and open all 7 chakra the traditional way, the Monk quests make it seem as if that would be very unlikely to be accomplished in the average person's lifetime.
However, just being in training to try and open *one* Chakra is enough to qualify one as a monk. For example, my main character is a monk of the Second Chakra.
I'm pretty certain the amount of open Chakra points determines your base power level as a monk. It seems to me that the Monk Questline indicates this, but it's not spelled out.
RE: Monks, Monks, Monks! - Melkire - 06-11-2015
The quote from FFXIV's Erik, the MNK job questgiver:
http://xivdb.com/?quest/66602/Five-Easy-Pieces
Quote:The vital energy of Hydaelyn, that which is called aether, is one and the same as the life force in which you monks believe. As the center of our world, these Silvertear Falls are connected to what you call chakra in an inexplicably profound way.
We all share in the same existence. We are neither separate nor distinct from the world. Our energy and its energy are one.
My personal interpretation... I drew a diagram! =D
![[Image: rvyDyKs.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/rvyDyKs.jpg)
Everything in red is INTERNAL. Everything else is EXTERNAL.
Most Eorzeans have no direct access to or control over the chakras. They draw from an interior reservoir of aether, instead (denoted in the diagram as "the mana pool"). Everything in red, that constitutes an individual's aether, that's borrowed from Hydaelyn/the land/the world/the lifestream. When an individual dies, everything in red returns to the land. This is why Black Magic is treated as vile: you're damaging the land, as the aether that's used up never returns again to Hydaelyn. Similar in concept to...