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+--- Thread: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE (/showthread.php?tid=12084)
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Aaron - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 01:17 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote: I don't understand why you keep saying things like this, Aaron: "If that didn't happen Sephiroth most likely wouldn't have went haywire."Im talking from a in universe continuity point not from when each game was made.
Are you suggesting that the Gackt character's motivation was in the scenario writers' minds as they were developing FF7 from 1994-1997? Because before Crisis Core was written, Sephiroth DID go haywire without Genesis' influence.
In universe its safe to guess if Genesis didn't influence him to go to Shinra manor. The odds of the events of VII happening wouldn't have been as high.
Sephiroth was just confused. He could have just learned to live with it. Genesis was the shoe in that made him decide to go to Shinra manor.
And the constant reference that genesis is a j pop star is really irrelevant. He played his part in game.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Gegenji - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 01:23 PM)Aaron Wrote: Sephiroth was just confused. He could have just learned to live with it.
He could've just lived with the unanswered possibility that he might be like the a bunch of mako-infused freaks in a bunch of pods in front of a chamber that has his mother's name on it?
And Gackt's j-pop popularity status IS relevant - because the producer of Crisis Core was a big fan and wanted to have him have a bigger role in the realm of the FF7 continuity beyond just doing some music. So he, on his own, sat down with Gackt and developed this character and forced him into the plot. Answering questions that were never asked and never needed answers, let alone with ones that take away Sephiroth's agency and make his suddenly-existing-"best buddy ever" Genesis the mastermind behind his descent into madness.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Aaron - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 01:30 PM)Gegenji Wrote:Person who inspired said character =/= actual character.Â(06-16-2015, 01:23 PM)Aaron Wrote: Sephiroth was just confused. He could have just learned to live with it.
He could've just lived with the unanswered possibility that he might be like the a bunch of mako-infused freaks in a bunch of pods in front of a chamber that has his mother's name on it?
And Gackt's j-pop popularity status IS relevant - because the producer of Crisis Core was a big fan and wanted to have him have a bigger role in the realm of the FF7 continuity beyond just doing some music. So he, on his own, sat down with Gackt and developed this character and forced him into the plot. Answering questions that were never asked and never needed answers, let alone with ones that take away Sephiroth's agency and make his suddenly-existing-"best buddy ever" Genesis the mastermind behind his descent into madness.
The pop star didn't tell SE "Make my character make SEPHIROTH go mad" if anything all he did was help design his personality. And SE wounded up working that into said plot themselves.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Gegenji - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 02:05 PM)Aaron Wrote: The pop star didn't tell SE "Make my character make SEPHIROTH go mad" if anything all he did was help design his personality. And SE wounded up working that into said plot themselves.
"I went to eat with him one time and described the Final Fantasy VII universe in rich detail. And it turned into this process of collaboration, creating the character together. Then we went to the studio and recorded the Japanese voice with all that in mind. So he really was a creative partner in all of this. And we really wanted the connection between Dirge of Cerberus and Crisis Core." - Hideki Imaizumi, the producer of Crisis Core.
"Imaizumi and Gackt came up with Genesis's design, describing everything from his attitude to his clothes" according to the wiki page. Again, it's not damning evidence that he had a part to play in Genesis' ultimate role - but I don't think it was wholly SE's idea either to suddenly have Gackt's insert character so crucial to the plot of the original game. It was all Imaizumi, who - to my eyes - basically added Genesis in as a blatant example of a Mary Sue character.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Arik - 06-16-2015
I'm a big fan of VII and have been since it was released; it was frankly the first FF installment that really drew me into the series as a kid. It inspired me to later go back and play its predecessors as well as VIII+ (VI and IX ranking way up there with it) but VII will always be my favorite. This is for a plethora of reasons; from its' story and characters to the sentimentality of it just being my first srs play through of a FF game and the first time I really started paying attention to Japanese video games/animation/etc. I am well aware of the fact that nostalgia probably plays a huge role in making me biased, and I'm totally okay with that.
That said: I never really understood all the debate that seemed to surround FF___ being better than FF___ -- and more importantly how vehement and even bitter some people can get about it. It's pretty obvious that a lot of the installments draw inspiration from a variety of their predecessors while throwing out new concepts to change things up. Given it's all technically in the same series, I tend to view it in an almost AU light I suppose; taking elements from previous characters/stories/worlds and putting them into a new environment or making changes here and there to see how that would affect the story. In the end, everyone's going to have their own favorites and preferences, but no one's wrong for wherever they may fall on the 'fandom' spectrum-- We're all fans of FF in the end, we might just like different installments more than others.
As far as the VII spin-offs/additions that were added later on, I've got to agree a lot with Gegenji on this. I liked CC a lot, mostly because I was excited to explore Zack's character and get to see him in action. The gameplay itself even turned out to be a lot of fun, so that was a major bonus. But Genesis? I like Gackt's work as a musician, I thoroughly enjoyed what he did for DoC, but it was completely unnecessary to force him into such an integral part of the main story. I have no problem with cameos, but why not just insert him as an easter egg NPC somewhere in the world? Or hell, plaster his face on billboards like some sort of canonical musician and celebrity in Midgar? There were better ways to go about executing an homage to the guy without majorly influencing the story itself.
At any rate, Sephiroth's motivations were perfectly fine as they were in VII. To insinuate that he had to be directed or influenced by someone else just to investigate his obvious differentiation from other SOLDIERs takes a lot away from the character's integrity, in my opinion. The fact that he clearly knew he was different, and was bound to eventually wonder why, was more than enough.
While I understand there are some people out there who thoroughly enjoyed Genesis as a character as well as what he meant for Sephiroth's story-- and everyone is absolutely entitled to their own opinions-- the whole thing just makes me cringe. In fact, I often find myself trying to pretend like that wasn't even a thing to start with and I swear my brain tries to selectively remove Genesis from the picture when I think about the VII plot and all of its additions these days.
I don't doubt they'll find ways to allude to him in the VII remake, I just hope they keep it subtle. Honestly, the more true they stay to the original game's story, the happier I'll be. (Even if that means just paying for a shinier version of a game I've already played/beaten.)
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Warren Castille - 06-16-2015
FF7 is a lot like Kingdom Hearts. There's the Main Series (KH, KH2, KH3 compared to... FF7) and then there's the metric fuckton of super-JRPG JRPGs that were added to "enhance" the world (Every handheld KH, all of the extra FF7 games).
I'm of the opinion of that isn't broke doesn't need fixing. I can safely ignore all of the extra stuff and be satisfied. Sephiroth found out he was an inhuman clone, and that the people he worked for (and killed for) destroyed his species. That's enough for me. If some idiot with a dumb name wants a self-insert with a dumber name to suddenly be the catalyst, that's fine. I'm not playing it, and I'm ignoring it in the context of the original game.
If this is an all-encompassing FF7 remake that alludes to all of CC and Dirge and AC as canon, then... Well, I guess I'll play it anyway, but I feel like explaining all of the extra stuff cheapens the original journey.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - TheLastCandle - 06-16-2015
I'm not sure whether or not they'll include the Genesis stuff in the remake, simply because according to some sources the main reason why Crisis Core has yet to be put on PSN is due to the nature of the contractual stuff with Gackt and Genesis. Granted, it's something they could resolve by renewing said contract and releasing a Crisis Core HD Remaster. But I really hope they leave the original game's story untouched aside from possibly updating the localization.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Warren Castille - 06-16-2015
Remember: The entire fate of the actual world of FF7 hinges upon a side character you can miss entirely.
Fuck Dirge so much.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Aaron - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 02:08 PM)Gegenji Wrote:"Everything from his attitude to his clothes"(06-16-2015, 02:05 PM)Aaron Wrote: The pop star didn't tell SE "Make my character make SEPHIROTH go mad" if anything all he did was help design his personality. And SE wounded up working that into said plot themselves.
"I went to eat with him one time and described the Final Fantasy VII universe in rich detail. And it turned into this process of collaboration, creating the character together. Then we went to the studio and recorded the Japanese voice with all that in mind. So he really was a creative partner in all of this. And we really wanted the connection between Dirge of Cerberus and Crisis Core." - Hideki Imaizumi, the producer of Crisis Core.
"Imaizumi and Gackt came up with Genesis's design, describing everything from his attitude to his clothes" according to the wiki page. Again, it's not damning evidence that he had a part to play in Genesis' ultimate role - but I don't think it was wholly SE's idea either to suddenly have Gackt's insert character so crucial to the plot of the original game. It was all Imaizumi, who - to my eyes - basically added Genesis in as a blatant example of a Mary Sue character.
Plot points don't fit into that variety of details.Â
I can design a character from scratch but that doesn't mean I get to dictate what part he plays in the game
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Aaron - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 05:04 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: FF7 is a lot like Kingdom Hearts. There's the Main Series (KH, KH2, KH3 compared to... FF7) and then there's the metric fuckton of super-JRPG JRPGs that were added to "enhance" the world (Every handheld KH, all of the extra FF7 games).The point im trying to get through to people is.
I'm of the opinion of that isn't broke doesn't need fixing. I can safely ignore all of the extra stuff and be satisfied. Sephiroth found out he was an inhuman clone, and that the people he worked for (and killed for) destroyed his species. That's enough for me. If some idiot with a dumb name wants a self-insert with a dumber name to suddenly be the catalyst, that's fine. I'm not playing it, and I'm ignoring it in the context of the original game.
If this is an all-encompassing FF7 remake that alludes to all of CC and Dirge and AC as canon, then... Well, I guess I'll play it anyway, but I feel like explaining all of the extra stuff cheapens the original journey.
Genesis did not /hurt/ the series or plot in anyway. Why are people so adamant about him just because he was inspired by Gackt? Not calling anyone out but the reason for all the Genesis hate seems really stupid to me.
Like seriously his point in the story didn't do anything but bolster the events of FF VII, why is everyone so adamant about hating him cause hes unnecessary?
You don't/need/ milk in your cereal to enjoy it. But does it /really/ hurt you if its in there? No.
Unless youre lactose intolerance but there's substitutes for that.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Warren Castille - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 05:33 PM)Aaron Wrote: The point im trying to get through to people is.
The prequels did not /hurt/ the series or plot in anyway. Why are people so adamant about hating hem just because they was written by Lucas? Not calling anyone out but the reason for all the Prequels hate seems really stupid to me.
Like seriously his point in the story didn't do anything but bolster the events of IV-VI, why is everyone so adamant about hating him cause hes unnecessary?
You don't/need/ milk in your cereal to enjoy it. But does it /really/ hurt you if its in there? No.
Unless youre lactose intolerance but there's substitutes for that.
![[Image: article-2110383-1208DF38000005DC-559_468x303.jpg]](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/03/05/article-2110383-1208DF38000005DC-559_468x303.jpg)
People are passionate about the things they enjoyed the first time. Adding things that can greatly detract from the original intention will rile people. You're telling me that Sephiroth is completely excused from his response because Master Drive fucked with his brain. That cheapens the original "hero learns of his twisted past, is forever changed by it" story that was being told. Sephiroth goes from insane, unrepentant victim of circumstance with reprehensible (but maybe even relatable) recourse and instead becomes "lol popstar did it."
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - TheLastCandle - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 05:33 PM)Aaron Wrote:(06-16-2015, 05:04 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: FF7 is a lot like Kingdom Hearts. There's the Main Series (KH, KH2, KH3 compared to... FF7) and then there's the metric fuckton of super-JRPG JRPGs that were added to "enhance" the world (Every handheld KH, all of the extra FF7 games).The point im trying to get through to people is.
I'm of the opinion of that isn't broke doesn't need fixing. I can safely ignore all of the extra stuff and be satisfied. Sephiroth found out he was an inhuman clone, and that the people he worked for (and killed for) destroyed his species. That's enough for me. If some idiot with a dumb name wants a self-insert with a dumber name to suddenly be the catalyst, that's fine. I'm not playing it, and I'm ignoring it in the context of the original game.
If this is an all-encompassing FF7 remake that alludes to all of CC and Dirge and AC as canon, then... Well, I guess I'll play it anyway, but I feel like explaining all of the extra stuff cheapens the original journey.
Genesis did not /hurt/ the series or plot in anyway. Why are people so adamant about him just because he was inspired by Gackt? Not calling anyone out but the reason for all the Genesis hate seems really stupid to me.
Like seriously his point in the story didn't do anything but bolster the events of FF VII, why is everyone so adamant about hating him cause hes unnecessary?
You don't/need/ milk in your cereal to enjoy it. But does it /really/ hurt you if its in there? No.
Unless youre lactose intolerance but there's substitutes for that.
I am hereby coining the term "Gacktose intolerant" to describe all persons who choose not to acknowledge Genesis as part of the overall FF7 mythos.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Telluride - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 05:42 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:(06-16-2015, 05:33 PM)Aaron Wrote: The point im trying to get through to people is.
The prequels did not /hurt/ the series or plot in anyway. Why are people so adamant about hating hem just because they was written by Lucas? Not calling anyone out but the reason for all the Prequels hate seems really stupid to me.
Like seriously his point in the story didn't do anything but bolster the events of IV-VI, why is everyone so adamant about hating him cause hes unnecessary?
You don't/need/ milk in your cereal to enjoy it. But does it /really/ hurt you if its in there? No.
Unless youre lactose intolerance but there's substitutes for that.
People are passionate about the things they enjoyed the first time. Adding things that can greatly detract from the original intention will rile people. You're telling me that Sephiroth is completely excused from his response because Master Drive fucked with his brain. That cheapens the original "hero learns of his twisted past, is forever changed by it" story that was being told. Sephiroth goes from insane, unrepentant victim of circumstance with reprehensible (but maybe even relatable) recourse and instead becomes "lol popstar did it."
See also...
![[Image: Aliens-Weaver_l.jpg]](http://www.relyonhorror.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Aliens-Weaver_l.jpg)
![[Image: alien3-poster.jpg]](http://www.movieramblings.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/alien3-poster.jpg)
![[Image: Sean.png]](http://skorkowsky.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Sean.png)
![[Image: 220px-Highlander_II.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5c/Highlander_II.jpg/220px-Highlander_II.jpg)
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Griffith! - 06-16-2015
Me, I didn't like Genesis because he makes Sephiroth less important as a character. Sephiroth isn't the mastermind - he's a side effect of the real, hidden mastermind's plot. FFVII is just cleaning up the mess left over from Crisis Core, all started by this seemingly random character that was apparently important enough to inform every other central character's actions but not important enough that anyone ever mentioned him outside the game in which he appeared.
The franchise worked better without Genesis because Sephiroth didn't need extra motivation - literally nobody was questioning his motives before CC. All Genesis does, as a character, is steal Sephi's agency as a villain and give Zack another rival to measure himself against.
But I'm not putting the effort in to break down or evaluate the character, if only because that would mean replaying the game. I just don't have that kind of time.
Or, y'know, caring.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Aaron - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 05:42 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:The end result was the same regardless though?(06-16-2015, 05:33 PM)Aaron Wrote: The point im trying to get through to people is.
The prequel did not /hurt/ the series or plot in anyway. Why are people so adamant about hating hem just because they was written by Lucas? Not calling anyone out but the reason for all the Prequels hate seems really stupid to me.
Like seriously his point in the story didn't do anything but bolster the events of IV-VI, why is everyone so adamant about hating him cause hes unnecessary?
You don't/need/ milk in your cereal to enjoy it. But does it /really/ hurt you if its in there? No.
Unless youre lactose intolerance but there's substitutes for that.
People are passionate about the things they enjoyed the first time. Adding things that can greatly detract from the original intention will rile people. You're telling me that Sephiroth is completely excused from his response because Master Drive fucked with his brain. That cheapens the original "hero learns of his twisted past, is forever changed by it" story that was being told. Sephiroth goes from insane, unrepentant victim of circumstance with reprehensible (but maybe even relatable) recourse and instead becomes "lol popstar did it."
Sephiroth goes mad after his BEST FRIEND (NOT POPSTAR) Suddenly decides in his mind "Why should i live in your shadow when i know the secrets to break you like a glass mirror?"
Were not supposed to be looking at it from a "Lolpopstar ripoff" but from a "Wow, the dudes best friend really just fucked him over like that, i feel bad that he drove him into chaos like that. Poor Sephiroth, Zack, and Cloud.
Genesis was Sephiroths friend and a pivotal character first and a popstar influence second.
People just want to find any and every reason to hate him like no other character was made from the same or similar influences. Sephiroths circumstances could actually have made it even MORE relatable.
"A human created me, a monster created by the humans influenced me, this world deserves mother. I shall utterly cleanse all the lies and deceit."
Over
"Im evil because I read some notes for no real reason other than a hunch"