Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get? - Kurt S. - 08-02-2015
Title speaks for itself. I was wondering if any of you fine folk could shed some light on it. The severity of say...
Being accused of inciting heresy among the good people of Ishgard. The scenario is not unlike what happens to Girlphinaud and Bestaru. Except I'm damn well sure Ramen is her own legal team in the tribunal. If it even gets there.
Since I'd like to say Ramen got apprehended in Ishgard doing a favor a friend. Which involved asking the wrong questions.
Again do they get locked for all eternity or executed? Can the right to invoke trial by combat by anyone or is that a right reserved for just the good people of Ishgard? She is a black mage so nuking her way out isnt exactly impossible but I dunno, she'd be a fugitive, also I wanna roleplay a court proceeding....
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Kind of related but not relevant atmBut that involves me reaching out to Ishgardian roleplayers to fill in the roles..i.e. random noble knight apprehending her, judge judy and executioner, maybe some other ishgardians who there when she 'incited heresy' but I digress. Hell maybe even a bunch of lower Ul'dahn families that might have had ties to the Reeve (because she isnt so much as Ramen Spencer but Alexis Reeve) family to act as her legal team(lolololololol I wish) maybe champions for both prosecutor and defendant sides if it goes the way of Tyrion Lannister wherein you keep calm and demand trial by combat (because she doesn't really want to incinerate the knight in two seconds if she can help it, of course after disabling him and leeching the aether off everyone and thing in the room))
At any rate this is just to see if keeping her active is still feasible or I retire her and replace or liquidate her assets to be transferred over to Kath.
RE: Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get? - FreelanceWizard - 08-02-2015
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In that quest you reference...
It seems that the right to trial by combat can be invoked by anyone. That makes sense to me, at least, since it meshes with the "middle ages-esque theocracy" feel of Ishgard and their belief in Halone. I can definitely envision the Halonic priesthood feeling that trial by combat is the most "fair" and sanctified adjudication, since those blessed by the Fury will surely succeed.
As for the actual proceedings, historically, canon law proceedings for heresy have tended to focus on "torture the person until they confess." Given Ishgard's approach to heretics in the field (chuck 'em off a cliff: if they fall to their death, they weren't heretics, and if they survive or fly away, they clearly were), I suspect "justice" in the city is equally harsh and, by our modern standards, unfair.
RE: Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get? - Caspar - 08-02-2015
A lot of unfair medieval justice systems used testimony-based judicial methods rather than actual evidence gathering as in our modern methods. Also, because of the class structure, the normal trial probably rates the testimony of a noble higher than that of a commoner.
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And of course, since Ishgard has been besieged for years, those in the power structure know that the alternative of Trial By Combat won't be selected very often by the commoners. They starve constantly in the Brume, without the high calorie diet to become strong fighters, and since they've been at war for so long, most of the skilled noble houses and upper-class citizens have at least some connection to the military elite, with the best equipment and training.
I don't know how accurate these ideas are, but they are worth considering.
RE: Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get? - Sylentmana - 08-04-2015
I'm probably wrong but:
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SpoilerI thought that by the end of the expansion this would become a moot point?
RE: Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get? - Virella - 08-04-2015
How did I miss this thread?
I think Ishgard does not really care about the average hobo trying to invoke trail by combat. Think it is more so a thing for people with some status/reputation, nobles, known faces ect.
Heck. The use CHILDREN to get 'valid' heresy claims with trading them candy.
Dabbling into heresy roleplay is either having your character run for their lives before arrested, or otherwise, well, unless you are an Ishgard noble, or have some other high status in Ishgard, the only logical thing to do there is to say your goodbyes, because execution seems to be inevitable.
(08-04-2015, 03:20 PM)Sylentmana Wrote: I'm probably wrong but:
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SpoilerI thought that by the end of the expansion this would become a moot point?
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SpoilerNot really*. War is far from over mind you. If anything the Ishgardians know how dangerous the heretics are with dragonblood. One has to for example just to spike the water supplies; and you got the city in fires in a matter of hours no doubt.
* assuming you meant 3.0 MQS ending
RE: Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get? - -no longer matters- - 08-04-2015
You'd have to RP out of the timeline for this...
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SpoilerBecause at the MSQ the whole heresy stuff is pretty much over and The Ishgardians are pledged to peace with the Dragons by Aymeric.
RE: Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get? - Virella - 08-04-2015
(08-04-2015, 03:37 PM)War Siren Wrote: You'd have to RP out of the timeline for this...
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SpoilerBecause at the MSQ the whole heresy stuff is pretty much over and The Ishgardians are pledged to peace with the Dragons by Aymeric.
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SpoilerWrong. There is no sudden peace; even Midgar himself says the war is far from over, and it will take generations to make proper amends. And we got a 2-eyed Nidhogg on the lose. In truth, the whole war became more shittier. No godlike Archbishop to defend them. And I imagine the city is probably going to be more divided then ever from this point on.
Just because Hreavaglr(spelling) and Midgar wants peace (and the Hreavaglr more being w/e), Nidhog is far, faaaaaar from having his rage tempered. It probably got only fuelled by the actions the Ishgardians took against him in the MQS.
Pledging it is a completely different thing then actually you know, having peace. Heretics will still be the enemy. They are probably become more lenient on heresy claims, but that is about it.
I really scratch my head at people thinking the war is suddenly over with the dragons?
RE: Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get? - -no longer matters- - 08-04-2015
(08-04-2015, 03:48 PM)Virella Douront Wrote: (08-04-2015, 03:37 PM)War Siren Wrote: You'd have to RP out of the timeline for this...
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SpoilerBecause at the MSQ the whole heresy stuff is pretty much over and The Ishgardians are pledged to peace with the Dragons by Aymeric.
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SpoilerWrong. There is no sudden peace; even Midgar himself says the war is far from over, and it will take generations to make proper amends. And we got a 2-eyed Nidhogg on the lose. In truth, the whole war became more shittier. No godlike Archbishop to defend them. And I imagine the city is probably going to be more divided then ever from this point on.
Just because Hreavaglr(spelling) and Midgar wants peace (and the Hreavaglr more being w/e), Nidhog is far, faaaaaar from having his rage tempered. It probably got only fuelled by the actions the Ishgardians took against him in the MQS.
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Spoiler No sudden peace, yes I agree that won't happen. Â However the holysee as it was is essentially finished it's lie exposed. I highly doubt even with the coming conflict with Nidhogg/Estinien coming, that the Inquisition will still be functioning not only is it now common knowledge everyone has Dragon Blood in them essentially, most of the Heretics followed Iceheart, and I'm sure they'll follow her wishes. Really the inquisition still existing after the lies of the whole belief system being exposed, or even the current heretics waging open warfare would be a slap to the face to everything that was sacrificed to get to where they were. I highly doubt the Inquisition will still be active at least in it's former incarnation.
Of course we're both Lore theory-crafting until the next parts of the story get released.
RE: Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get? - Virella - 08-04-2015
(08-04-2015, 03:54 PM)War Siren Wrote: (08-04-2015, 03:48 PM)Virella Douront Wrote: (08-04-2015, 03:37 PM)War Siren Wrote: You'd have to RP out of the timeline for this...
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SpoilerBecause at the MSQ the whole heresy stuff is pretty much over and The Ishgardians are pledged to peace with the Dragons by Aymeric.
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SpoilerWrong. There is no sudden peace; even Midgar himself says the war is far from over, and it will take generations to make proper amends. And we got a 2-eyed Nidhogg on the lose. In truth, the whole war became more shittier. No godlike Archbishop to defend them. And I imagine the city is probably going to be more divided then ever from this point on.
Just because Hreavaglr(spelling) and Midgar wants peace (and the Hreavaglr more being w/e), Nidhog is far, faaaaaar from having his rage tempered. It probably got only fuelled by the actions the Ishgardians took against him in the MQS.
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Spoiler No sudden peace, yes I agree that won't happen. Â However the holysee as it was is essentially finished it's lie exposed. I highly doubt even with the coming conflict with Nidhogg/Estinien coming, that the Inquisition will still be functioning, most of the Heretics followed Iceheart, and I'm sure they'll follow her wishes. Really the inquisition still existing after the lies of the whole belief system being exposed, or even the current heretics waging open warfare would be a slap to the face to everything that was sacrificed to get to where they were. I highly doubt the Inquisition will still be active at least in it's former incarnation.
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SpoilerThe heretics have nowhere else to go after Iceheart's death. And I really have a hard time believing that she accepted all what was going on with the heretics, and still lots of crap behind her back happened; not sure if you've read it the DRG storyline, but they force dragonblood down people's throats to turn them forcefully. They try to kill off innocents. They are really not blameless and innocent. Ishgard's war is full with grey areas, and not just black and white.
With Iceheart out of the way, they just have Nidhogg's leadership to listen to now. The only reason they stopped is that they thought Nidhogg was dead after all, and thought they had lost the war.
Inquisition was not just there to make sure the truth is not being exposed, but also to deal with threats; preventing heretics killing people one way or the other.
Surely they will change, however saying that heresy claims will just be gone overnight? Eh, that's just silly due to them still being the enemy, and still being a threat to Ishgard.
Unless heretics cease the exist, I highly doubt the inquisition would just poof over night. They will remain to be a serious threat to Ishgard's population, even if the truth is out.
In truth I'm rooting for civil war to break out due to this, but that's another topic completely 
RE: Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get? - -no longer matters- - 08-04-2015
(08-04-2015, 04:05 PM)Virella Douront Wrote: (08-04-2015, 03:54 PM)War Siren Wrote: (08-04-2015, 03:48 PM)Virella Douront Wrote: (08-04-2015, 03:37 PM)War Siren Wrote: You'd have to RP out of the timeline for this...
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SpoilerBecause at the MSQ the whole heresy stuff is pretty much over and The Ishgardians are pledged to peace with the Dragons by Aymeric.
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SpoilerWrong. There is no sudden peace; even Midgar himself says the war is far from over, and it will take generations to make proper amends. And we got a 2-eyed Nidhogg on the lose. In truth, the whole war became more shittier. No godlike Archbishop to defend them. And I imagine the city is probably going to be more divided then ever from this point on.
Just because Hreavaglr(spelling) and Midgar wants peace (and the Hreavaglr more being w/e), Nidhog is far, faaaaaar from having his rage tempered. It probably got only fuelled by the actions the Ishgardians took against him in the MQS.
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Spoiler No sudden peace, yes I agree that won't happen. Â However the holysee as it was is essentially finished it's lie exposed. I highly doubt even with the coming conflict with Nidhogg/Estinien coming, that the Inquisition will still be functioning, most of the Heretics followed Iceheart, and I'm sure they'll follow her wishes. Really the inquisition still existing after the lies of the whole belief system being exposed, or even the current heretics waging open warfare would be a slap to the face to everything that was sacrificed to get to where they were. I highly doubt the Inquisition will still be active at least in it's former incarnation.
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SpoilerThe heretics have nowhere else to go after Iceheart's death. And I really have a hard time believing that she accepted all what was going on with the heretics, and still lots of crap behind her back happened; not sure if you've read it the DRG storyline, but they force dragonblood down people's throats to turn them forcefully. They try to kill off innocents. They are really not blameless and innocent. Ishgard's war is full with grey areas, and not just black and white.
With Iceheart out of the way, they just have Nidhogg's leadership to listen to now. The only reason they stopped is that they thought Nidhogg was dead after all, and thought they had lost the war.
Inquisition was not just there to make sure the truth is not being exposed, but also to deal with threats; preventing heretics killing people one way or the other.
Surely they will change, however saying that heresy claims will just be gone overnight? Eh, that's just silly due to them still being the enemy, and still being a threat to Ishgard.
Unless heretics cease the exist, I highly doubt the inquisition would just poof over night. They will remain to be a serious threat to Ishgard's population, even if the truth is out.
In truth I'm rooting for civil war to break out due to this, but that's another topic completely
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Spoiler I think if the inquisition keeps going anywhere near to what they were it would be extremely counter productive to the peace they're trying to broker. If you don't break the cycle of hate as early as possible in a regime change it will never go away. Like I said at this current moment neither of us are wrong and we're completely theory-crafting what will come next. I suppose we'll see in 3.1 or beyond.
RE: Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get? - Coatleque - 08-04-2015
I wouldn't jump to any conclusions on the state of Ishgard just yet.
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Remember all the drama at the end of 2.55? How we speculated on Nanamo's death and how Ul'dah would plunge into chaos? Yeah, that was all swept under the rug before the MSQ was even finished.
RE: Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get? - -no longer matters- - 08-04-2015
(08-04-2015, 04:13 PM)Coatleque Wrote: I wouldn't jump to any conclusions on the state of Ishgard just yet.
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Remember all the drama at the end of 2.55? Â How we speculated on Nanamo's death and how Ul'dah would plunge into chaos? Â Yeah, that was all swept under the rug before the MSQ was even finished.
True that's why I said we're essentially just theory-crafting at this point.
RE: Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get? - Virella - 08-04-2015
(08-04-2015, 04:13 PM)Coatleque Wrote: I wouldn't jump to any conclusions on the state of Ishgard just yet.
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Remember all the drama at the end of 2.55? Â How we speculated on Nanamo's death and how Ul'dah would plunge into chaos? Â Yeah, that was all swept under the rug before the MSQ was even finished.
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I really felt they dropped the ball on that. But who knows what may happen in the future? I really hope they continue the storyline for Ul'dah, and more importantly. I want to see more of Ilberd. I loved that guy.
RE: Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get? - McBeefâ„¢ - 08-04-2015
I play a once convicted heretic, who is now laying (semi) low in Ishgard.
She was caught on semi circumstantial evidence, tortured until she confessed to all sorts of things, and exiled.
She was going to be killed, but due to her age, family standing, and some peculiarities at her trial, she was branded and exiled instead.
Now that tensions are cooling in the city, she has returned. Different people have different reactions, most are happy to put the worst terrors of the inquisition behind them, and give her the benefit of the doubt. Others are not so forgiving.
As for her actual heresies, they were never quite terrible. She read forbidden literature, went to forbidden meetings, and even heard lady iceheart speak once! She has given up on most of the things she was told by fellow heretics, understanding they were as much lies as the teachings of Ishgard.
Though Evangeline still doesn't believe the gods are real... and that manages to annoy some people.
RE: Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get? - Zelmanov - 08-05-2015
A levequest has it that a woman showed her birthday present to a knight that was given to her by her parents. That present were Draconian rosaries, that alone was enough to ensure that "Her parents won't be joining her for dinner that night"
So heresy, when pegged is acted upon quite quickly.
MIND YOU, post MSQ leads to some issues,Â
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POST MSQ THEORIESwhile I don't doubt the inquisitors staying around, but I do think that due to the fact that the scholars within St. Reymanaud Cathedral are openly questioning and reassessing the theocratic doctrine, especially when questioning the reigme before was grounds for heresy would definitely mean that the Inquisition in this new era is less about the power and oppression game and reserved to more...grievous acts.
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