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+--- Thread: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting (/showthread.php?tid=12970)
Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Sig - 08-12-2015
Forgive the rant, friends, but it's been a terrible day at work thus far. Â Allow me to crack my knuckles and vent. Â This is going to be a very nerdy and subjective post. Â Brace yourselves. Something has been bugging as of late in the wonderful world of Eorzean RP.
/Rant
Most Eorzean knife fighting is.... painful to watch. Â
Yeah, I said it.  I mean no offense and will elaborate.  You are probably are already very familiar with most types of Eorzean knife fighters, especially rogues and ninjas and the like. Many other types of characters also carry knives as side-arms  (Sig, for example, has more than he knows what to do with).  It's safe to assume there is an obscene amount of knife fighters roaming the streets at all times.  And most follow a similar pattern.Â
Most Eorzean knife fighters are skilled dancers. Â They move like cats and emphasize graceful, sweeping strikes, akin to swinging a longsword or staff. Â They frequently weave jumps, twists, and other amazing acrobatic feats into the melee. Â We'll call this style "dancing with a knife."Â
There is nothing wrong about dancing with a knife. Â It can be very entertaining to watch. Â It can also be effective, as evidenced by Eskrima and similar disciplines. But the flashy show and excessive flourish drown out the true beauty inherent in knife fighting, making it painfully scarce.
Simplicity is the most beautiful and effective aspect of knife fighting. Â Basic, rote movements reduced to repeatable patterns. Â A hand grasps the opponent's outer shoulder, gains a purchase on clothing, and proceeds to pump the blade into the mark like a piston. Â This is the essence of knife fighting. Â There are a few variations but not many. Movements are fast, simple, and direct. Traditional knife fighting is something that almost any character could master in a day, and is so brutally effective that very few could stop a well-timed attack. But alas, we never see such displays. Â They don't make for a good show, afterall. Â Â
...But, at least one character in this zany world, finds few shows more entertaining than a proper, simple knife fight. Â Give it a shot sometime in-character, sometime. Â It's fun and indisputably effective.Â
/Rant.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Sin - 08-12-2015
Are you a tonberry in real life?
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - McBeefâ„¢ - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 03:45 PM)Sin Wrote: Are you a tonberry in real life?
Tonberrys are certainly efficient with their knife fighting...
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Melkire - 08-12-2015
The disconnect with real knife-fighting ultimately comes down to artistic liberties. That sounds like a major cop-out because it is a major cop-out.
A key factor in this is also that mortal combat (snrrrrrk) in fiction tends to favor drama. You can't have drama sufficient to entertain most audiences in a five-to-ten second fight, which is what most conflicts come down to. Someone comes at you with a knife? If they get a good thrust in, you're probably dead. If you get a good thrust in, they're probably dead. If both combatants come to find themselves disarmed, the fight devolves into a brawl... but at that point, the fight is no longer about knife-fighting.
Fiction takes extreme liberties. Video games just as much so, if not more.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Dogberry - 08-12-2015
Final Fantasy 14.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Cailean Lockwood - 08-12-2015
If all knife fights aren't just taking 3 steps towards the target, with pauses in between mind you, and then one single deadly stab, then it is just not worth doing!
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Telluride - 08-12-2015
It's not just Eorzea, not just "Fantasy", but ALL fictional/cinematic combat.
Anytime you see a close fight between someone using a penetrating weapon (sword, knife, pistol), that person will get very few hits in, if any, compared to the person using blunt weapns (sticks, staves, clubs, fists) if a good, dramatic fight is supposed to be going on. Put a good knife in the hand of the latter person - the one getting the hits in - and fight's done. Boo! Hiss! Boring Murder!
So, basically, what Melkire said. Real combat isn't really dramatic. Boxing can be only because it is constrained by very specific rules of engagement. MMA fighting often devolves into rolling on the floor and, as Penny Arcade once put it, sweaty, grunting groin-punching. Painful... effective... but kind of, well, not what most people expect a fight to be - at least, most people who don't fight.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Caspar - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 04:10 PM)Telluride Wrote: It's not just Eorzea, not just "Fantasy", but ALL fictional/cinematic combat.Even the supposedly realistic MMA hugfest (ugh.) ill advised on a concrete surface. What matters in fiction is more selling the scene than realism. When most people demand the latter, they really just don't want their subjective suspension of disbelief abused. It's like how it's hard to find real "hard sci-fi.": most people just aren't anal enough about the details to care.
Anytime you see a close fight between someone using a penetrating weapon (sword, knife, pistol), that person will get very few hits in, if any, compared to the person using blunt weapns (sticks, staves, clubs, fists) if a good, dramatic fight is supposed to be going on. Put a good knife in the hand of the latter person - the one getting the hits in - and fight's done. Boo! Hiss! Boring Murder!
So, basically, what Melkire said. Â Real combat isn't really dramatic. Boxing can be only because it is constrained by very specific rules of engagement. Â MMA fighting often devolves into rolling on the floor and, as Penny Arcade once put it, sweaty, grunting groin-punching. Painful... effective... but kind of, well, not what most people expect a fight to be - at least, most people who don't fight.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Aaron - 08-12-2015
When I fight rp as a Rogue I tend to make Aaron go for short un flashy moves. Because you try to end a fight as fast as possible, not drag it out for enjoyment in a life or death situation. If he had to chose between that swift shoulder grab pull towards the neck vs some graceful dance akin to Shadow Fang (NIN skill) he's doing the former. Saves time and effort.Â
Yeah it's a fantasy game but fantasy or not a lot of times people don't go slashing knives at each other just to waste energy jumping around like Hermes and all that. They generally aim to wound or kill.
But what do I know I'm swinging a bigass DRK sword around now.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Kellach Woods - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 03:47 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:(08-12-2015, 03:45 PM)Sin Wrote: Are you a tonberry in real life?
Tonberrys are certainly efficient with their knife fighting...
But MAN do they hold a grudge...
* * *
Pro wrestling is scripted up the ass and yet it is still enjoyable to watch precisely because it's so unrealistic.
That's how I view most fantasy stuff.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Sylentmana - 08-12-2015
See, this is why I prefer to play a mage. Any demands of realistic combat is kind of forced out by the presence of magic. If the other person still insists on realistic combat, manawall would make all melee attacks useless at least long enough to cast a spell.
Congratulations, your demand for realism now means you are incinerated, impaled by ice, or have suffered death by electrocution. Realism in a game can only carry you so far.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Caspar - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 04:26 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:Does remember that Japanese proresu circuit, the one with the tiny little girl who choke slams people?(08-12-2015, 03:47 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:(08-12-2015, 03:45 PM)Sin Wrote: Are you a tonberry in real life?
Tonberrys are certainly efficient with their knife fighting...
But MAN do they hold a grudge...
* * *
Pro wrestling is scripted up the ass and yet it is still enjoyable to watch precisely because it's so unrealistic.
That's how I view most fantasy stuff.
That is Lalafell pugilism.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Aaron - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 04:41 PM)Sylentmana Wrote: See, this is why I prefer to play a mage. Any demands of realistic combat is kind of forced out by the presence of magic. If the other person still insists on realistic combat, manawall would make all melee attacks useless at least long enough to cast a spell.I think his point was more along the lines people in combat rp aim on a unconscious lebel to make the fight flashy than efficient. Not the level of realism.
Congratulations, your demand for realism now means you are incinerated, impaled by ice, or have suffered death by electrocution. Realism in a game can only carry you so far.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Shoshopu - 08-12-2015
I dunno, to me there's something dramatic and scary about just how brutal (and brutally short) the "proper knife fight" scenario is. If you wrote it right, it could still be a deadly dramatic grapple to keep your opponent from being able to grab at you well enough to stab, without all the dramatic dancy stuff.
There's a place for both, it just depends on what sort of feel you're going for!
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Caspar - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 04:57 PM)Shoshopu Wrote: I dunno, to me there's something dramatic and scary about just how brutal (and brutally short) the "proper knife fight" scenario is. If you wrote it right, it could still be a deadly dramatic grapple to keep your opponent from being able to grab at you well enough to stab, without all the dramatic dancy stuff.I think so too. A lot of the time when I rp, my posts can get really long and descriptive, going for a more impressionistic feel. This usually elicits a "Debeezee!" response from happy onlookers. But actually, when you get down to it and pay attention solely to what's being described, like 99% of it is just "I hit them. Really hard."
There's a place for both, it just depends on what sort of feel you're going for!