+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Final Fantasy 14 (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=41)
+--- Forum: FFXIV Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=12)
+--- Thread: White Mage Lore (/showthread.php?tid=13072)
White Mage Lore - N'odbhi - 08-20-2015
So, this is a response to information brought up in the Lost City of Amdapor thread. Something that's always made me tilt my head and think is the origin of White Magic. Most, if not all players I've ever come across attribute it to the Elementals of the Shroud, who are now known as the keepers of the art.
But... Every instance of in-game lore I can find contradicts this. More specifially, the following text from Raya-O-Senna when asked for an explanation of her art:
Most folk I've come across use the above as justification for the Elemental's side of the argument, and certain lines within taken out of context seem to support this - but, all together, it's clearly stated (to me) that this is not the case.
"The people of Amdapor felt this power was too great to be allowed to go unchecked, and so it was that white magic - the magic of healing and solace - was born."
"The Elementals of the forest, knowing that men could not be trusted to keep such vows, took action as well. The Twelveswood grew, swallowing the ruins of Amdapor, and the power of white magic was sealed away deep in the forest, far from the reach of mortals."
"So the nation of Gridania was founded, and my people - the Padjal - came into being, to serve as mediators between Elementals and those who would reside in their forest home. It is from the Elementals themselves that we inherited white magic."
That last sentence seems to be clincher for most people but, taken in context, Raya isn't referring to 'we' as White Mages as a whole. 'We' in that situation simply means the Padjal. She quite clearly states, as per the first quote, that the White was created by the Amdapori. After the Sixth Umbral Calamity - wherein the Elementals flooded Eorzea - the Shroud grew over the remnants of Amdapor civilization and locked the surviving knowledge of succor away. It was not until the creation of the Padjali that the Elementals deemed anyone fit to pass this knowledge on to.
It's my opinion that while the Elementals are the current holders of White Magic, they are not the originators. White Mages are considered to be touchy in roleplay because of their supposed exclusivity - if the Elementals are the creators and keepers of the art, then there is no way to learn it without jumping through some fairly elaborate hoops. If it was in fact created by the Amdapori, though, then that frees the job for use by just about anyone. The seals on the City and Keep of Amdapor have been broken, free for anyone to pilfer the knowledge within. If created by mortal men, able to be taught by mortal men, then the White - like the Black - could have survived the Flood through generations of master/apprentice relationships.
The question becomes, I suppose, what you all think? I'd love to hear anyone else's opinion, as this is one of the most frustrating bits of FFXIV lore I've ever come across.
RE: White Mage Lore - LiadansWhisper - 08-20-2015
As far as I know, the Elementals gifted the Amdapori with Succor to counter Black Magic.
But Sounsyy can probably explain better than I can.
...someone light the signal!
RE: White Mage Lore - Moonlit - 08-20-2015
(08-20-2015, 12:50 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: As far as I know, the Elementals gifted the Amdapori with Succor to counter Black Magic.
But Sounsyy can probably explain better than I can.
...someone light the signal!
I think the problem is that, in all of our hunting, we've not found a statement that says the elementals gave the Amdapori the White (only that they gave it to the Padjal). Instead, in the comment by Raya that the Amdapori may of created it themselves:
"The people of Amdapor felt this power was too great to be allowed to go unchecked, and so it was that white magic - the magic of healing and solace - was born. So it was that the forces of magic were brought into equilibrium, and civilization flourished."
As the OP points out, the context of her full statement suggests the Amdapori created it, the elementals wiped it out, and retained the knowledge. From there, they bestowed it onto the Padjali.
I've messaged Sounsyy once about this in the past. I really wanted her and N'oh to talk about this because I think seeing them go back and forth in this discussion would be awesome. SOUNSYY, SOUNSYY LOOK.
RE: White Mage Lore - Kaiz - 08-20-2015
Seems to me that it's a lot like Magi-tek. Sure the empire created it, and it was exclusive to them, but anyone with the right knowledge can use it, and that knowledge can be attained through more than one way.Â
Wouldn't creatures of the void possibly have this lore as well? This seems like the sort of thing an errant mage would make a faustian deal over.
RE: White Mage Lore - N'odbhi - 08-20-2015
(08-20-2015, 01:30 AM)Kaiz Wrote: Seems to me that it's a lot like Magi-tek. Sure the empire created it, and it was exclusive to them, but anyone with the right knowledge can use it, and that knowledge can be attained through more than one way.Â
Wouldn't creatures of the void possibly have this lore as well? This seems like the sort of thing an errant mage would make a faustian deal over.
I would assume so, both survivors of the War of the Magi and even those able to escape the Lost City after the wards fell. The voidsent within that particular dungeon have even found ways to corrupt and twist white magic to suit their own needs - the Baalzephon tethering themselves to the regenerative magestones in particular.
RE: White Mage Lore - LiadansWhisper - 08-20-2015
(08-20-2015, 01:42 AM)N Wrote:(08-20-2015, 01:30 AM)Kaiz Wrote: Seems to me that it's a lot like Magi-tek. Sure the empire created it, and it was exclusive to them, but anyone with the right knowledge can use it, and that knowledge can be attained through more than one way.Â
Wouldn't creatures of the void possibly have this lore as well? This seems like the sort of thing an errant mage would make a faustian deal over.
I would assume so, both survivors of the War of the Magi and even those able to escape the Lost City after the wards fell. The voidsent within that particular dungeon have even found ways to corrupt and twist white magic to suit their own needs - the Baalzephon tethering themselves to the regenerative magestones in particular.
I'm fairly certain that's not White Magic. Â Just because it regenerates doesn't mean it's White Magic.
RE: White Mage Lore - N'odbhi - 08-20-2015
They're called White Magestones and cast regen - a spell exclusive to white mages. I admit I'm assuming, but it's not that far of a stretch.
RE: White Mage Lore - LiadansWhisper - 08-20-2015
(08-20-2015, 01:56 AM)N Wrote: They're called White Magestones and cast regen - a spell exclusive to white mages. I admit I'm assuming, but it's not that far of a stretch.
I seem to recall them being yellow in color, but even so, that effect could very well be a simple game mechanic.
Especially given that Succor isn't the only way to heal. Â >.>
Edited to Add: The truth is, we don't know what perversions the Amdapori came up with on their own. We know that they were perverting White Magic for personal gain, but we don't know how. It's possible that those Magestones are something they created that was later used against them or whatnot. My point being that the Magestones strike me as constructs, not spells-gone-awry, and it seems less likely that the voidsent are directly perverting White Magic and more that they're using constructs (or that the constructs themselves were created using perverted White Magic, but were created by the Amdapori, not the voidsent).
RE: White Mage Lore - N'odbhi - 08-20-2015
(08-20-2015, 03:51 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:(08-20-2015, 01:56 AM)N Wrote: They're called White Magestones and cast regen - a spell exclusive to white mages. I admit I'm assuming, but it's not that far of a stretch.
I seem to recall them being yellow in color, but even so, that effect could very well be a simple game mechanic.
Especially given that Succor isn't the only way to heal. Â >.>
Edited to Add: The truth is, we don't know what perversions the Amdapori came up with on their own. We know that they were perverting White Magic for personal gain, but we don't know how. It's possible that those Magestones are something they created that was later used against them or whatnot. My point being that the Magestones strike me as constructs, not spells-gone-awry, and it seems less likely that the voidsent are directly perverting White Magic and more that they're using constructs (or that the constructs themselves were created using perverted White Magic, but were created by the Amdapori, not the voidsent).
I'm not sure color has anything to do with anything, but no. The constructs themselves are made of a dark stone with a blue aetheric core - and I said in my first post on the subject that the voidsent had managed to make use of the objects within the city, not that they had created the things themselves.
I wasn't trying to imply any wrongdoing on the part of the Amdapori, or that the stones were a spell. I agree that they are objects, but am pointing out that they cast the spell Regen (the effect icon on the mob is clear) and their magicks have been subverted and possibly corrupted by the voidsent. White magic is not something one would expect to work on beings of the void, yet the Baalzephon have somehow made use of them to keep themselves alive.
I quite agree that succor is not the only healing magic in the game, but... in this case that's what it is. You're in the ruins of the civilization of white mages, the object in question has white mage in the name and it's casting a white mage spell - it's a game mechanic, yes, but in my opinion a deliberate one.
All that said: This discussion, while interesting, wasn't the point of the thread.
RE: White Mage Lore - A'kos Saiyal - 08-20-2015
Quote:"The people of Amdapor felt this power was too great to be allowed to go unchecked, and so it was that white magic - the magic of healing and solace - was born."
"The Elementals of the forest, knowing that men could not be trusted to keep such vows, took action as well. The Twelveswood grew, swallowing the ruins of Amdapor, and the power of white magic was sealed away deep in the forest, far from the reach of mortals."
As the opener points out, this seems to be the clincher. Not only does it imply the people of Amdapor created the White Magic school, but that if the elementals had indeed created it and it was a gift, then they wouldn't have to seal it away. They could just take it back and refuse to not teach anyone. White magic seems to be the product of a magical arms race.
With anyone able to loot the lost city, the knowledge would be out there. If it hasn't been passed down in other ways, or even reinvented by someone else, somewhere else. Someone particularly daring, skilled or unwise could make a bargain with or trap a voidsent, and have them act as a teacher. If the voidsent in question knew enough about white magic.
RE: White Mage Lore - Sounsyy - 08-20-2015
I fully admit there are some texts that seem to imply that Succor was made by the Amdapori, but there are also texts which suggests the Elementals' involvement. Which is right? I don't know. But below I've outlined some points which lead me, personally, to believe White Magic was gifted, not created.
-Amdapori were originally Thaumaturges, like the Mhachi. Conjury did not exist yet.
-If the Amdapori "develop" Succor on their own, why then do the Elementals regift a man-made magic to the Padjal - an Elemental-created race 1,600 years later? A race designed to house Succor.
-In the 1.0 Quest Chorus of Cataclysm, after calming the Elementals of the Wood, Oha-Sok says this:
Oha-Sok Wrote:Of their own free will, they would fain give themselves unto thy garb of succor. Thy hopes and dreams, they take to be their own. Till such time as the light of succor shineth in every corner of the realm, together with my kindred, I shall remain by thy side.
-How do Elementals gift succor if it is man-made? And the phrase "light of succor" sounds holy, reverent, pure. Based on everything that the Elementals consider mankind to be... a man-made white magic would be none of those things.
Raya-O-Senna Wrote:In order to save Eorzea, we must avail ourselves of greater power─-we must avail ourselves of the garb of succor, the legendary artifacts worn by the white mages of old. Ancient chronicles hold that the garb is imbued with the light of succor, and is bestowed only upon those deemed true servants of the forest. The garb comprises five artifacts, each of which heightens the wearer's affinity with the elementals. There exist accounts of white mages who successfully entreated elementals to render their essence unto the garb as a show of ultimate favor.
-Additionally, the magic of the Fae is also called Succor, but the Fae were man-made, so then is Succor man-made as well? But then why would the Scholars need to create the Fae to gain access to Succor if it was man-made? Why create an Elemental? If the power was already in your hands?Â
Which leads me to believe it wasn't. I think the Scholars of Nym saw the Succor of the White Mages and they sought to create their own, but only Elementals have that magic, so they needed to create a lesser Elemental. Thus were born the Fae. Perhaps this was the perversion of Succor that the Elementals spoke of? We don't know. Probably never will.Â
Another possible theory on what this perversion was:
When Sheep Attack Wrote:Raya-O-Senna: My sister has chosen to return to Gridania. She intends to use her powers to fight in defense of her people.
Oha-Sok: Hast thou forgotten the Pact of Gelmorra? The powers granted to the Padjal must not be used in conflict.
RE: White Mage Lore - Berrod Armstrong - 08-20-2015
(08-20-2015, 07:21 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: I fully admit there are some texts that seem to imply that Succor was made by the Amdapori, but there are also texts which suggests the Elementals' involvement. Which is right? I don't know. But below I've outlined some points which lead me, personally, to believe White Magic was gifted, not created.I'll start off by saying that I myself am not sure if Succor is man made or not based on the implications of what has been discussed above. From what I read, however...these things keep floating in my mind. Bear with me, I'll tout none of it as fact, just simply as my own musings.Â
-Amdapori were originally Thaumaturges, like the Mhachi. Conjury did not exist yet.
-If the Amdapori "develop" Succor on their own, why then do the Elementals regift a man-made magic to the Padjal - an Elemental-created race 1,600 years later? A race designed to house Succor.
-In the 1.0 Quest Chorus of Cataclysm, after calming the Elementals of the Wood, Oha-Sok says this:
Oha-Sok Wrote:Of their own free will, they would fain give themselves unto thy garb of succor. Thy hopes and dreams, they take to be their own. Till such time as the light of succor shineth in every corner of the realm, together with my kindred, I shall remain by thy side.
-How do Elementals gift succor if it is man-made? And the phrase "light of succor" sounds holy, reverent, pure. Based on everything that the Elementals consider mankind to be... a man-made white magic would be none of those things.
Raya-O-Senna Wrote:In order to save Eorzea, we must avail ourselves of greater power─-we must avail ourselves of the garb of succor, the legendary artifacts worn by the white mages of old. Ancient chronicles hold that the garb is imbued with the light of succor, and is bestowed only upon those deemed true servants of the forest. The garb comprises five artifacts, each of which heightens the wearer's affinity with the elementals. There exist accounts of white mages who successfully entreated elementals to render their essence unto the garb as a show of ultimate favor.
-Additionally, the magic of the Fae is also called Succor, but the Fae were man-made, so then is Succor man-made as well? But then why would the Scholars need to create the Fae to gain access to Succor if it was man-made? Why create an Elemental? If the power was already in your hands?Â
Which leads me to believe it wasn't. I think the Scholars of Nym saw the Succor of the White Mages and they sought to create their own, but only Elementals have that magic, so they needed to create a lesser Elemental. Thus were born the Fae. Perhaps this was the perversion of Succor that the Elementals spoke of? We don't know. Probably never will.Â
Another possible theory on what this perversion was:
When Sheep Attack Wrote:Raya-O-Senna: My sister has chosen to return to Gridania. She intends to use her powers to fight in defense of her people.
Oha-Sok: Hast thou forgotten the Pact of Gelmorra? The powers granted to the Padjal must not be used in conflict.
...most of the points countering the possible man-made origin of white magic seem to come from the Padjal, who may or may not have been fed this by the elementals. It explains the sanctity of it, why they regard it as holy. It sounds like it's fact but it's very possible that it could be subjective. Elementals controlling the information their creations receive, etc.Â
As for the scholars creating Fae to gain access to succor; I'm thinking that they perceived the elemental power/aether within the twelveswood was the source from which the white mages drew. Not that the elementals themselves GIFTED the Amdapori, but rather the aether the Amdapori used was perhaps SIPHONED from them and their lands. Without a source like that in Nym, they may have perhaps created the Fae to compensate.Â
To me it seems rather up in the air, with all the answers based on subjective views on the events -- we don't have that definite word of yea or nay. Â Is it too late for the submission of questions to the lore panel? This seems like a good one!
RE: White Mage Lore - Yssen - 08-20-2015
This area of lore bits, like most areas of lore bits surrounding the elementals, strikes on a particularly frustrating note for all people diving into finding lore. Unreliable narrator.
Stuff contradicts itself because it is meant to as part of the story/setting, and even the NPCs either don't know or are not revealing the entire truth of what is going on. We have to take what they say with huge helpings of salt, or make our best educated guess based on what is presented. The only primary source of lore we have is what Koji and the rest of the lore team devs reveal to us, and even they cannot reveal to us everything. This is not to say that we cannot use NPCs as sources to try and figure stuff out, it just means that when the we have a contradiction between what the devs have said and what the NPCs are saying we have to assume the NPCs are wrong in some way/shape/form. This "take with salt" situation is not limited to the subjects of the elementals, Gridania, and the Black Shroud.Â
With that said this is what we know about Succor:
- It was discovered by the Amdapori.
- There are ways to get it without it being gifted by the Shroud elementals (either by unknown more nefarious means, or possibly being granted access by elementals outside of the Shroud).
- Mankind was cut off from it by the Shroud elementals after the War of the Magi because of its miss use in the war and the time period leading up to it.
- There are connection between it and the Amdapori voidsent (Diabolos and such).
- The Padjal have been granted use of it as part of the Pact of Gelmorra, and may or may not have been created to be the sole wielders of it after the Shroud elementals cut mankind off from it. They are the sole wielders of Succor (other than the WoL) that do so with the Shroud elemental's approval.
My personal vote, from what we know first hand, is that Succor was discovered by the Amdapori. It may not be a man made source of power, but the art of using it as a power source certainly is. In point of fact, most magic sources were not made my man, they aleady existed. People simply figured out how to use and direct them (or they were given a "how-to book" by the Ascians). Mankind figuring out how to tap into Succor seems to have been the primary reason the Shroud elementals went cuckoo bananas.Â
Basically, White Magic was created by man. The power source for it has always existed and is presently under the elemental's control (specifically the Shroud elementals, we have yet to really hear for certainty if elementals outside the Shroud can or cannot grant access to it).
RE: White Mage Lore - Sylentmana - 08-20-2015
I just finished the White Mage quests recently and it seemed to me that the Elementals didn't create White Magic but now control the knowledge of how to perform it. Mankind didn't "create" these new forms of magic so much as discover how to use it. Succor has always existed, but the Amdapori learned how to tap into it in response to the threat posed by the Black Mages.
Perhaps the Elementals originally gifted the Amdapori with the knowledge, but they couldn't control what they did with it. This means that the knowledge could be passed down from mage to apprentice and that the knowledge could conceivably be obtained from texts found within the lost city or even rediscovered by a lucky and/or especially studious mage. Certainly, the Elementals would not appreciate such a thing and performing any unsanctioned White Magic within the Shroud would be a very effective way to incite the Green Wrath.
This is just the way I see it from playing the White Mage quests and why I believe the RP community's censure of people RPing White Mages is ultimately unjustified.
RE: White Mage Lore - LiadansWhisper - 08-20-2015
(08-20-2015, 09:52 AM)Sylentmana Wrote: This is just the way I see it from playing the White Mage quests and why I believe the RP community's censure of people RPing White Mages is ultimately unjustified.
No one has censured anyone for any reason. Â I do not understand why this keeps coming up.
Not everyone is going to agree with everything you do, not here and not in real life. Â So do what you want. Â No one is saying that you can't play whatever you want. Â No one has ever said that.
Now, they've said, "I don't acknowledge that in my RP." Â And they've said, "This isn't backed up by the lore we have in the game." Â But no one has ever, ever - not even one damn time - said, "You can't play that because I say so."
Ever. Â Not ever.
No one is censuring anyone. Â Just because they don't agree with something you're doing does not mean they are censuring you. Â It means they don't agree with you. Â Which is something adults do all the time - not agree with each other. Â Doesn't mean anyone is being mean to anyone else. Â Doesn't mean that you can't do what you want. Â It means someone disagrees with you. Â That's it. Â That's all. Â That's literally all it is.