(08-20-2015, 04:41 AM)N Wrote: I'm not sure color has anything to do with anything, but no. The constructs themselves are made of a dark stone with a blue aetheric core - and I said in my first post on the subject that the voidsent had managed to make use of the objects within the city, not that they had created the things themselves.

I wasn't trying to imply any wrongdoing on the part of the Amdapori, or that the stones were a spell. I agree that they are objects, but am pointing out that they cast the spell Regen (the effect icon on the mob is clear) and their magicks have been subverted and possibly corrupted by the voidsent. White magic is not something one would expect to work on beings of the void, yet the Baalzephon have somehow made use of them to keep themselves alive.

Quote:I quite agree that succor is not the only healing magic in the game, but... in this case that's what it is. You're in the ruins of the civilization of white mages, the object in question has white mage in the name and it's casting a white mage spell - it's a game mechanic, yes, but in my opinion a deliberate one.

Quote:All that said: This discussion, while interesting, wasn't the point of the thread.

(08-20-2015, 09:41 AM)Yssen Wrote: This area of lore bits, like most areas of lore bits surrounding the elementals, strikes on a particularly frustrating note for all people diving into finding lore. Unreliable narrator.

Stuff contradicts itself because it is meant to as part of the story/setting, and even the NPCs either don't know or are not revealing the entire truth of what is going on. We have to take what they say with huge helpings of salt, or make our best educated guess based on what is presented. The only primary source of lore we have is what Koji and the rest of the lore team devs reveal to us, and even they cannot reveal to us everything. This is not to say that we cannot use NPCs as sources to try and figure stuff out, it just means that when the we have a contradiction between what the devs have said and what the NPCs are saying we have to assume the NPCs are wrong in some way/shape/form. This "take with salt" situation is not limited to the subjects of the elementals, Gridania, and the Black Shroud. 

Show Content

Spoilery bits hidden for your protection.The shear number of "things what we find out are completely untrue" going through the Heavensward plot borders on the level of staggering.

Quote:With that said this is what we know about Succor:

- It was discovered by the Amdapori.

Quote:- There are ways to get it without it being gifted by the Shroud elementals (either by unknown more nefarious means, or possibly being granted access by elementals outside of the Shroud).

Quote:- Mankind was cut off from it by the Shroud elementals after the War of the Magi because of its miss use in the war and the time period leading up to it.
- There are connection between it and the Amdapori voidsent (Diabolos and such).

Quote:- The Padjal have been granted use of it as part of the Pact of Gelmorra, and may or may not have been created to be the sole wielders of it after the Shroud elementals cut mankind off from it. They are the sole wielders of Succor (other than the WoL) that do so with the Shroud elemental's approval.

Quote:My personal vote, from what we know first hand, is that Succor was discovered by the Amdapori. It may not be a man made source of power, but the art of using it as a power source certainly is. In point of fact, most magic sources were not made my man, they aleady existed. People simply figured out how to use and direct them (or they were given a "how-to book" by the Ascians). Mankind figuring out how to tap into Succor seems to have been the primary reason the Shroud elementals went cuckoo bananas.

Quote:Basically, White Magic was created by man. The power source for it has always existed and is presently under the elemental's control (specifically the Shroud elementals, we have yet to really hear for certainty if elementals outside the Shroud can or cannot grant access to it).

(08-19-2015, 11:49 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Amdapor & War of the Magi Lore Text Compilation

Raya-O-Senna Wrote:But tell me, are you versed in the histories? I take from your silence that you are not. No matter, it shall be my pleasure to educate you. The Fifth Astral Era is said to have begun approximately three millennia ago. The ice age that ushered in the Fifth Umbral Era made the land a barren and merciless place, and man was pushed to the limits of his resourcefulness in the struggle to survive. Yet survive he did, through the discovery of magic as we know it─an event which marked the dawning of the Fifth Astral Era.

At first, man was well pleased just to have the means to keep the cold at bay and compete with the other races. But man is nothing if not an ambitious beast. It was not long before he began to seek mightier magicks, hoping to win greater glory. It was this desire that brought forth black magic, the arcane art of destruction, into the world. In order that this force of chaos be kept in check and balance preserved, at roughly the same point in history, white magic, the arcane art of succor, came into existence.

Emboldened by magic, man went on to reach the zenith of glory. But his hunger knew no bounds. Over time, even they who donned the white began perverting their powers for the sake of self-gain, and in this single-minded pursuit scrupled not to sully the sanctity of the Twelveswood. In his pride and avarice, man brought down the wrath of the elementals upon himself. A great deluge was sent to cleanse the land of his wicked presence, in the wake of which the forest rose to swallow up all that was not washed away. Thus did the Six Umbral Era begin...or so it is told.

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:The mages of Amdapor devised this arcane art during the Fifth Astral Era to counter the destructive black magic of Mhachi sorcerers. Focusing heavily upon spells of restoration and purification, the practice of white magic led to great advances in Amdapori society. Intoxicated by their newfound power, however, the magi surrendered prudence to ambition.

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:The Amdapori initially harnessed basic magicks for use in their city's defenses, drawing and expanding upon the primitive knowledge of golem creation to temporarily imbue stone statues with life. However, in the ninth century, mages of the ancient city bore witness to Mhach's use of the destructive arts to subjugate neighboring city-states. Wary of their neighbor's ambitions, the Amdapori sought to counter these black magicks by improving upon their own spellcraft, weaving with the intent to purify, ward, and heal - the art of white magic.

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:The ephemeral guardian spirits of the Twelveswood. With bodies comprised entirely of aether, these entities are nevertheless possessed of an intelligence and intent that can be sensed by those blessed with preternatural awareness. The elementals perceive the aether-draining nature of white magic as a direct threat to their existence, and for centuries did they seek to prevent its secrets from reentering the world.

Lost City of Amdapor Wrote:Born in magic, the ancient city of Amdapor lived in splendor and died in agony. As the Fifth Astral Era gave way to the Sixth Umbral and the ensuing catastrophe, the agent of Amdapor's destruction slept. Now, the seal that has held so long is softening like windfallen fruit - and what blind worms writhe underneath the skin of the dead city?

E-Sumi-Yan Wrote:Amdapor was not always thus afflicted. Indeed, the city once owed an age of prosperity to the benevolent art of white magic. But that was before the War of the Magi. It is told that the enemies of the Amdapori abandoned all caution in their pursuit of victory, and used their dark magicks to summon a king among demons. Though the mages of Amdapor eventually succeeded in imprisoning this fell creature, its recent resurgence speaks eloquently to the impermanence and unpredictability of arcane energies.

Amdapor Keep Wrote:Once, the lost civilization of Amdapor thrived in the Twelveswood, her citizens wielders of powerful, yet forbidden magicks which could be used to alter the very fabric of existence. However, as is oft the case with peoples who fancy themselves gods, the self-assuring hubris of the Amdapori eventually became their downfall, and as quickly as they rose to power, did they disappear from the world. For generations, this relic of their once-mighty civilization has remained hidden in plain sight - cloaked by the elementals who sought only to prevent newer generations from stumbling across the ancient Amdapori magicks. That is, until the Lambs of Dalamud - a dark cult who worships the now-fallen lesser moon as a god - dispelled the elementals' glamour by means unknown, and claimed the keep as their own. Now the crazed followers use its ancient chambers to perform blood sacrifices in an effort to resurrect their evil lord.

Lalai Wrote:The origins of black magic can be traced back many, many years - to the beginning of the Fifth Astral Era, to be precise. There lived at that time in Eorzea a powerful sorceress named Shatotto, who strived to push the destructive power of magic to its very limits. The typical practice of magi is to weave magic using their own aether. The ability to do so is the greatest magical gift, yet at the same time that gift's greatest limit.

Shatotto was able to overcome such inherent limitations by developing a new technique which allowed her to draw upon the aether all around her as the fount of her magic. It was this technique that came to be known as black magic. Following the War of the Magi and the Sixth Umbral Calamity, however, black magic was branded far too great a danger to life, and so its use and even its mere mention were made forbidden. Over time, it came to be forgotten entirely. Or so it was thought...

Raya-O-Senna Wrote:The art now known as white magic dates back to the Fifth Astral Era. It was then that a brilliant young sorceress - for the first time in history - succeeded in channeling not merely her own life energy, but the aether that inhabits the very land itself. Her magic was that of destruction: black magic. The people of Amdapor felt this power was too great to be allowed to go unchecked, and so it was that white magic - the magic of healing and solace - was born. So it was that the forces of magic were brought into equilibrium, and civilization flourished.

But this era of peace and prosperity would prove short lived. War broke out, and the realm was thrown into chaos. The War of the Magi. To rain death and destruction on their foes, mages summoned forth greater and greater powers. The war raged on, until the aether dried, and the land itself could bear the burden no longer. So did the hubris of the magi bring forth the Sixth Umbral Era... and with it a mighty flood that swept away entire civilizations, leaving naught but ruin and suffering in its wake.

The survivors - what few there were - banded together. Vowing never again to repeat their mistake, white and black magic were declared forbidden arts, never to be practiced again. The Elementals of the forest, knowing that men could not be trusted to keep such vows, took action as well. The Twelveswood grew, swallowing the ruins of Amdapor, and the power of white magic was sealed away deep in the forest, far from the reach of mortals.

Ages passed, until five centuries ago, the Elementals at long last welcomed people back into the forest. So the nation of Gridania was founded, and my people - the Padjal - came into being, to serve as mediators between Elementals and those who would reside in their forest home. It is from the Elementals themselves that we inherited white magic.

Tyago Moui Wrote:According to the loremasters' books, there was an age of shadow and calamity some fifteen hundred-odd years ago, when a great flood drowned the world─the sixth Umbral Era, they called it. Believers say it was the twelve Archons what came to fight the darkness then.

They say Ahldbhar was the mightiest of the twelve Archons. Rhalgr the Destroyer himself, taken form in Roegadyn flesh─a bloody mountain of a man, and a fearsome warrior, besides. You must've seen renderings of Rhalgr at some point─in paint or stone. Looks like a bag of angry muscles in a mage's robes, right? Aye, well, those are done in the likeness of Archon Ahldbhar.

Ahldbhar fought relentlessly against a clan of wicked sorcerers that sought only to wreak havoc on the world through their dark powers. But then, something happened... Something that threw Ahldbhar into deep despair. And in the end, he turned and took up with the enemy, though none can say as to why.

What came of him after his betrayal? Well, I confess I haven't heard the end of the tale myself. That bard's a wily bugger, see, and he only ever gets part way through before his throat dries out. Meaning I have to give him yet another bloody ale─free of charge, of course.

Raya-O-Senna Wrote:Oha-Sok is the collective fury of the elementals given form. Their suffering summoned her forth, and in her turn she stokes the fire of their rage with her keening. As I related to you earlier, it was the rage of the elementals that brought an end to the civilization of the Fifth Astral Era. And now the selfsame harbinger of that destruction is come once more. The histories vividly describe the fearsome nature of the elemental of nihility─or “the Wrath,” as she is sometimes called. It is writ that each time she keens, she sets off a hundred of her kind to doing the same. Ever more elementals shall join the keening, and so shall it continue until their chorus rends the land asunder. And then the heavens shall spill forth a deluge of tears, and the trees weep till they are hoarse of voice. Oha-Sok's awakening spells cataclysm for Eorzea...

Forlemort Wrote:The aether should be left be! Has history taught you naught about the folly of the Nymians? The Amdapori? The Mhachi?

Demon Wall Card Wrote:These frightful guardians are the creations of ancient spellcraft, given life when a chosen wall was inscribed with an arcane pattern of blood. Though their masters have long since perished, these sentinels of demonic visage continue to protect the crumbling ruins to which they are bound─to the surprise and horror of many an unsuspecting adventurer.

Demon Brick Minion Wrote:For many years, modern archeologists did not understand how a seemingly primitive civilization without clockwork or steam technology could build the massive stone structures of Amdapor. Animated bricks, such as this one that has chosen to follow you, may be the missing link.

Monarch Ogrefly Hunt Wrote:Monarch Ogrefly, the dread vilekin of the lost city of Amdapor. The barrier that seals in its infestations is considered sound... yet even the Gods' Quiver could not stop the monstrous Ogreflies from escaping with their deadly taint of mold and burrs.

Ghede Ti Malice Wrote:The first among gremlins in saltiness of speech, the Ghede Ti Malice finally lost its place in Amdapor after one too many contumelies. The Ghede Ti Malice wouldn't be the first to fall out with its gremlin mates. Thin skin and big mouths make for an uneasy combination.

Gravel Golem Wrote:Mage-controlled golems were in such wide use by the end of the Fifth Astral Era that entire battles were waged by armies comprised of nothing but the lifeless soulkin. This recreation, however, is nothing but a standard #001 mammet outfitted with simple gravel plating.

Mahisha Wrote:In death does Mahisha find its purpose, and so the scent of corse-flower is sweet to this creature. A stele unearthed at Nym records Mahisha was summoned during the War of the Magi in the Fifth Astral Era, for the conquest of the Floating City. The ploy failed and Mahisha was bound at great cost, by the efforts of some two-score phrontists at Nym. What broke the tethers is not known, though there are theories ranging from the Calamity to the humble weevil.

(08-20-2015, 04:46 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 09:52 AM)Sylentmana Wrote: This is just the way I see it from playing the White Mage quests and why I believe the RP community's censure of people RPing White Mages is ultimately unjustified.

No one has censured anyone for any reason.  I do not understand why this keeps coming up.

Not everyone is going to agree with everything you do, not here and not in real life.  So do what you want.  No one is saying that you can't play whatever you want.  No one has ever said that.

Now, they've said, "I don't acknowledge that in my RP."  And they've said, "This isn't backed up by the lore we have in the game."  But no one has ever, ever - not even one damn time - said, "You can't play that because I say so."

Ever.  Not ever.

No one is censuring anyone.  Just because they don't agree with something you're doing does not mean they are censuring you.  It means they don't agree with you.  Which is something adults do all the time - not agree with each other.  Doesn't mean anyone is being mean to anyone else.  Doesn't mean that you can't do what you want.  It means someone disagrees with you.  That's it.  That's all.  That's literally all it is.

(08-20-2015, 06:21 PM)Sylentmana Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 04:46 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 09:52 AM)Sylentmana Wrote: This is just the way I see it from playing the White Mage quests and why I believe the RP community's censure of people RPing White Mages is ultimately unjustified.

No one has censured anyone for any reason.  I do not understand why this keeps coming up.

Not everyone is going to agree with everything you do, not here and not in real life.  So do what you want.  No one is saying that you can't play whatever you want.  No one has ever said that.

Now, they've said, "I don't acknowledge that in my RP."  And they've said, "This isn't backed up by the lore we have in the game."  But no one has ever, ever - not even one damn time - said, "You can't play that because I say so."

Ever.  Not ever.

No one is censuring anyone.  Just because they don't agree with something you're doing does not mean they are censuring you.  It means they don't agree with you.  Which is something adults do all the time - not agree with each other.  Doesn't mean anyone is being mean to anyone else.  Doesn't mean that you can't do what you want.  It means someone disagrees with you.  That's it.  That's all.  That's literally all it is.

Well, that was quite the overreaction to a rather unimportant statement. Also, you don't really know the experiences of everyone so to say no one has ever said a thing is only limited to you experience. Maybe you have not experienced it, but some of us have.

LiadansWhisper Wrote:I understand it's not the point of the thread, but threads on public forums go in various directions based on what is said in them.  You can't expect people not to comment on something they find weird, or leave a statement of "fact" unchallenged because it might push the topic in a direction you don't want it to go.

(08-20-2015, 06:42 PM)Nako Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 06:21 PM)Sylentmana Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 04:46 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 09:52 AM)Sylentmana Wrote: This is just the way I see it from playing the White Mage quests and why I believe the RP community's censure of people RPing White Mages is ultimately unjustified.

No one has censured anyone for any reason.  I do not understand why this keeps coming up.

Not everyone is going to agree with everything you do, not here and not in real life.  So do what you want.  No one is saying that you can't play whatever you want.  No one has ever said that.

Now, they've said, "I don't acknowledge that in my RP."  And they've said, "This isn't backed up by the lore we have in the game."  But no one has ever, ever - not even one damn time - said, "You can't play that because I say so."

Ever.  Not ever.

No one is censuring anyone.  Just because they don't agree with something you're doing does not mean they are censuring you.  It means they don't agree with you.  Which is something adults do all the time - not agree with each other.  Doesn't mean anyone is being mean to anyone else.  Doesn't mean that you can't do what you want.  It means someone disagrees with you.  That's it.  That's all.  That's literally all it is.

Well, that was quite the overreaction to a rather unimportant statement. Also, you don't really know the experiences of everyone so to say no one has ever said a thing is only limited to you experience. Maybe you have not experienced it, but some of us have.

Thing is, the comment on Censure keeps being brought up in arguments about lore, usually only when someone disagrees with someone. Typically targeted at a few certain people, so it is understandable that they would react in such a manner.

(08-20-2015, 06:51 PM)Moonlit Wrote: I think that threads have topic purposes they're meant to be kept to. For that, I believe N'oh was just trying to state he didn't want the thread to go off too far on that discussion, as it would be something for a different thread. People are allowed to request threads are kept to their initial purpose. 

(08-20-2015, 08:31 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: I just want to point out that conjury was discovered "after" White Magic had already come and gone.

(08-20-2015, 08:29 PM)N Wrote: Well, didn't expect this to receive so many replies!

One of the recurring questions I'm seeing is why/how did the Elementals gift knowledge of white magic to the Padjali if they themselves were not the originators of it? There's a simple explanation in my opinion: White magic is something of an extremely pure form of conjury. In using it, you are communicating with and channeling nature. The Elementals were able to feel that connection - the pervesion and overuse of it being one of the things that led to their flooding Eorzea. They knew that the White held the potential to do good in the right hands, and so could easily have either communicated the ability to the Padjal or led them to the ruins of Amdapor where they could learn from the left behind teachings. The Padjali were also created to act as mediators between the Elementals and the people of Gelmorra - what better way to keep them safe than to have them know one of the most powerful branches of magic ever created, with the fringe benefit of being able to better communicate with them because of it?

As per the White/Succor being a naturally occurring force that the Amdapori/whoever simply stumbled upon: That's pretty much exactly what it says on the tin. Like the Black, the White is used by tapping into the aether of the planet. Unlike its' sister art that is inherently destructive in nature, the White - while capable of vast levels of carnage - is used primarily to heal and nurture.

And, finally, a random aside: A thing to remember is the spells you come across and use in game are teachings passed down from your Padjal instructors, who had an exceedingly long time to experiment with and hone their craft. What we know as white magic today could simply be the refinement of the art by the Padjali, and not its' original Amdapori incarnation.

(08-20-2015, 09:01 PM)N Wrote: Apparently I messed up a simile.

I am well aware that the White came first. I did not mean to imply that white magic was conjury, I was comparing the two arts. Both are used to heal and both involve communication with nature - one is just orders of magnitude more powerful and complex.

(08-20-2015, 08:41 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 08:31 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: I just want to point out that conjury was discovered "after" White Magic had already come and gone.

Yes, I believe it was the Moogles who taught it to the Gelmorrans (though I can't recall whether or not it was at the behest of the Elementals there).

Maroile Wrote:It is the moogles who first taught the language of the elementals to man.
It was thanks to their efforts that some learned to hear the elementals, and understand them, as we do now. Even so, it requires arduous training to nurture the gift.

The Raven - Moogle Myth Made Manifest Wrote:That the moogles are our friends and allies is a fact all Gridanian younglings are raised to know. The relationship, however, has not always been one of amity. It was in the age of Gelmorra, back when the elementals did not suffer our presence in the Twelveswood, that the first contact between man and moogle took place. In the beginning, the moogles saw our ancestors as naught but an odious plague, whose existence served only to wake the elementals’ wrath.

But through great effort, our forbears eventually succeeded in communing with the elementals, and were permitted to abide in the Twelveswood. And with the elementals’ acceptance came the moogles’ grudging respect—a respect which grew into understanding and, over time, friendship. The moogles have since stood staunchly by our side, helping us to further our intimacy with the forest and its mysteries. Without their wisdom and guidance, I daresay Gridania would not have flourished into the great nation it is today.