+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Off-Topic (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=42)
+--- Forum: Off-Topic Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=14)
+--- Thread: Sex-work and Harmful Language (/showthread.php?tid=14177)
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Hyakki - 11-06-2015
Sex worker/Escort/Sex technician/CEO of sex is better suited for business that follows the health and labor laws that every other business has to abide by.
Prostitute/Prostitution is appropriate for sex work that does not follow these laws, hence people being charged for prostitution/labelled as prostitutes.
Prostitute/prostitution is not a slur, the other terms in the OP are but those who use them don't care. They know it's derogatory, that's the whole point of a slur.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Melkire - 11-06-2015
[Admin Hardhat]
(11-06-2015, 05:38 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: One disadvantage of No Mod's Land is that some people don't seem to have the ability to differentiate between it and other subforums.
Unfortunately, this seems to be the case.
The original poster of this thread came to staff and asked whether such a discussion would be alright and/or permissible. We would no more bar such a discussion than we would refuse to permit discussions on race, ethnicity, sexual preferences, gender identification, etc. Such discussions are not permitted in RPC Chat for a reason (our chat moves too fast and is too difficult to moderate for socio-political discussions to be permissible) but they are perfectly fine on the Off-Topic boards. While on a personal level, I disagree with many points made in the original post (e.g., I feel in both a personal and administrative capacity that if you are opening a thread, discussion and debate should not only be permitted but accepted; I feel that perhaps this thread should've had a "Information Dump Only" disclaimer of sorts) I also accept and acknowledge that it is a user's right to post and/or share their thoughts given that the content and attitude are not in violation of site rules.
The trouble here is that folks seem incapable of governing themselves. If a discussion is not to one's liking, one is entitled to exercise a certain practice lauded for its effectiveness:
If you've nothing of substance to say and you are personally through with a particular discussion, you are more than welcome to bow out of the thread.
Quite a few people in this thread have done just that, either temporarily or permanently, and I applaud them for that. That said, certain behaviors are not permissible by this site's rules (that's right, this is a moderated board) and those behaviors include intentional attempts to derail and/or lock the thread as well as derogatory commentary regarding a member's thread.
See Section 1:
(04-29-2015, 07:45 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Naturally, the rules on off-topic posts are somewhat more lenient on the main Off-Topic board, as that's its intended purpose, but intentionally derailing a thread even there isn't acceptable.
...and Section 4:
(04-29-2015, 07:45 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: "Posting negative comments about a member's topic(s)" refers specifically to posts that belittle or insult a topic itself, not necessarily the content of an argument. For example, a post of "this topic is shit," "shut up and stop bitching," or "quit whining about this" would be unacceptable. If you disagree with an argument someone has made, feel free to rebut it (respectfully and without personal attacks, of course). However, if you disagree with the existence of the topic itself, simply mark it read and move on.
Certain users have been placed under post moderation for varying periods of time, depending on the offense. Said users are more than welcome to PM myself for an explanation, so long as they are aware, acknowledge, and accept that my responses will be limited to outlining why action was taken against specific post(s), read: I'm not going to argue and/or banter with anyone. Do note that further violations and/or continued disruptive behavior will result in increasingly harsher sanctions, including but not limited to temporary bans.
Time and time again, members of the community here at RPC have requested that we resist malicious attempts to get threads locked by way of derailing. So we're honoring those requests as of late as best we can.
Control yourselves, please, and remember:
Be Excellent to Each Other.
Thank You.
[/Admin Hardhat]
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Melodia - 11-06-2015
While I don't have a lot to contribute to the discussion (ironically lol) I found it an interesting one...and the back and forth was relatively civil for the most part. Kudos for an interesting read this morning.Â
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - mongi291 - 11-06-2015
Huh. I didn't know prostitute and prostitution were slurs. You learn something new everyday, apparently.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Kellach Woods - 11-06-2015
I only have a single question and I don't think it'd derail that much.
Why is sexwork not in two words?
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - ChewableMorphine - 11-06-2015
Well, I'm apparently not allowed to disagree or debate. So I'll just sit here and contemplate why I shouldn't light myself on fire for legitimately reading the direct definition of a sex worker (or rather, a variant of one) be called a slur. Just because you don't like the sound of it doesn't make it not what it is. Garbage men don't wanna be called garbage men, they'd much rather be called sanitary engineers. Well, welcome to the real world, where you are a garbage man, and that's what you want to be called is not your choice. Being PC is for bureaucrats and tumblr, not the majority who couldn't give a rat's ass about what you think in the end of the line.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Arrelaine - 11-06-2015
To be honest, I agree with the notion that even if you change the word you use from prostitute to sex worker, that the word will have negative connotations simply because people don't like people who sell sex outright.
For instance, (and I only bring this up as an example) to many, homosexual is a proper term for people who are attracted to the opposite sex. Where I live, people often use this word in the same context as they would 'queer', in a derogatory fashion. It's not just about the definition of words, it's also the intent. A proper term can be used in a derogatory fashion, and if we keep labeling words as 'slurs' because people use them as insults, we'd have a lot more unacceptable words in the dictionary.
In other countries, words can have completely different connotation and meanings. I'm going to assume the OP lives in the U.S., in which case, 'sex worker' is still going to be seen negatively until we can shed the social stigma that comes with it. The stigma follows the job, the definition of the word, not the word itself.
That being said, I do believe that the stigma needs to be changed, and to make it legalized because, let's face it, 'sex sells'. We're selling it in our commercials, using attractive people to market campaigns, etc. It would make it much safer for men and women in the profession. People shouldn't be shunned because they're a stripper/pornstar/etc. Do I think words need to be changed? No, because it's not changing the underlying problem.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Askier - 11-06-2015
Okay, I do have an issue with the Op's post, but not because of its direct intention. i have no issue with those who are sex workers or any who happily express their urges.
No, my issue is that the Op is basically advocating censorship, which is ironic considering the topic being discussed.
cen·sor·ship
ˈsensərˌSHip/
noun
noun: censorship
the practice of officially examining books, movies, etc., and suppressing unacceptable parts.
If you life in a Western thinking society: we, as a group of similar societies, have a wonderful history of being able to speak freely. Granted, our morals and views differ from nation to nation. But, as a collective, we have more freedom to say and do than most nations in history, or even the world at this moment. You need look no further that the Middle East to still see real world examples of women stoned to death for learning or Russia where homosexuals are rounded up and shipped to prison.
Freedom of expression is a wonderful concept that dates to Athens and the Greeks and their desire for public discussion.
But there is a catch. To have TRUE, freedom of expression, NOTHING should be off limits or censored, even offensive terms. I truly believe that. In my dream world, women could display themselves as they desire and racists of ALL ethnicities could sit on the street corner and bicker at one another.Â
Freedom of speech means you have to take what you LIKE to hear with what you DON'T like to hear. And you have too have a thick skin to deal with it. People made fun of me all while growing up. Not everyone was nice to me. You know what? Good! It made me realize not everyone is going to like me. Not everyone will get along and sing camp fire songs with me and eat marshmallows an di needed to be proud of who I was and stop trying to please everyone. People are all different. And you have to understand that my background is not yours, but we are still equal human beings and both deserve our right to our words.
Words.
Now I'm an English major. I -love- my language. So when people say they want to take away -any- word, that bothers me. Yes, degrading terms hurt. But so do insults that can be as simple as remarking about you having "four-eyes". Censorship is brain washing and that's not okay with me. People have the RIGHT to think for themselves. I would rather two people have a series of extremely well done debates that convert the other to a way of thinking instead of -making- them think that way. Cause if you make someone think someway, they will only resent you for it.
An example is C.S. Lewis, who was a vocal atheist for many years, being converted to Christianity by his friend J.R.R Tolkien over years of DISCUSSIONS. See, that should be the goal. RATIONAL debating, not censorship. Because when ideas are free to flow, people can learn or have their world view changed.
There are many men and women who have died over the centuries to ensure the concept of free speech and freedom of expression could live on and not be crushed by the concept of censorship. Many in the military, whom die for these rights, have to deal with insults leveled at them. Many would enjoy not having to hear these insults. But many int he armed services simply say "I may not agree with you, but I'll die to defend your right to think it." So, please consider the ultimate sacrifice of many and what they gave their life for before trying to take words off the table and take away freedom of expression for anyone, even if they are the worlds biggest asshole. You may think its only a word here or a word there. But a slippery slope is a slippery slope and censorship is certainly a steep slope.
So again, while I have no issues with those who choose to use their bodies as is THEIR RIGHT TOO, I DO object, when someone attempts to take words off the table for ANY reason. So if someone decides to use those words you have mentioned in roleplay or conversation, explain to them it bothers you and that you would prefer them not use them around you. MOST people will be understanding. And those who aren't? Well, at least you know their true colors and can avoid them.
Just my two cents.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - SicketySix - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 02:21 AM)PkThunda Wrote: It is, however, not your say in which words should and should not be accepted. Just because you do not like the work, be it pornography or stripping, that doesn’t give you the right to degrade another human being on their choices.
Actually it does, and I do. It's called an opinion. Half the problem with society today is everyone is so freaking sensitive over everything.
You can't step on a blade of grass without offending an environmentalist.
You can't eat a steak without offending a member of PETA.
You can't campaign for more effective gun control laws without offending gun owners.
People just need to get over themselves already and realize that the world does not revolve around the.
As far as my personal opinion goes on this particular chosen topic: Prostitute, whore, sexworker, hooker, escort, callgirl, streetwalker, it's all the same to me no matter what the word and I shall judge it the same, regardless if that judgement is for or against it.
I'm okay with what you do, as well as i think everyone else in here is.
But i am not going to candycoat words to make anyone feel better. That's just not me.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Hammersmith - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 09:48 AM)Askier Wrote: Holy Snip Batman
I'm guessing you and Flynt didn't actually read the OP, since they explicitly say they don't want to stop using or restrict usage of the words, or force a OMG THE PC POLICE WILL CENSOR US, especially in an RP context.
They just to bring an awareness of how the words sit in a cultural context both in RP and RL usage and the impact usage of such word carries, consciously and unconsciously in the same contexts we've constructed around them. They're shitty words used in shitty contexts to make people feel shitty. The reasons behind their entrenchment into our language are complicated, historical, and terrible and frankly we'd be better off without them in the same way we've ditched racial and homo/transphobic slurs that also used to be commonplace in a 'Well call a spade a spade because that's what it is' way of thinking.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Askier - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 02:21 AM)PkThunda Wrote: It is because of this that I have to speak up and let people know that some language in regards to sex-work is not okay...
(11-06-2015, 10:20 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:(11-06-2015, 09:48 AM)Askier Wrote: Holy Snip Batman
I'm guessing you and Flynt didn't actually read the OP, since they explicitly say they don't want to stop using or restrict usage of the words, or force a OMG THE PC POLICE WILL CENSOR US, especially in an RP context.
They just to bring an awareness of how the words sit in a cultural context both in RP and RL usage and the impact usage of such word carries, consciously and unconsciously in the same contexts we've constructed around them. Â They're shitty words used in shitty contexts to make people feel shitty. Â The reasons behind their entrenchment into our language are complicated, historical, and terrible and frankly we'd be better off without them in the same way we've ditched racial and homo/transphobic slurs that also used to be commonplace in a 'Well call a spade a spade because that's what it is' way of thinking.
You and I disagree and I'm fine with that. That line there though, where the OP says its not okay is indicating, to me at least, a cause for concern. Why isn't it okay? Whom gets to determines which words are okay and not? If a word hurts someone's feelings, why should we get rid of it? If you get called "Four-eyes- and it hurts your feelings, does that mean we need to ban the words -four- and eyes- to make sure the insult can never happen again?
Look, you can sit there and insult me, and Flynt, (NOW there's someone I never thought I be paired with, lulz), but that won't change my view point. I don't care how people live their life. I want everyone to be able to live their live as they desire. Do what they enjoy Love who they love. But I do not agree with you that we should ditch all these words.Â
If you censor a word, you actually GIVE it power because its taboo and that, ironically, is counter-productive. Its like the Unforgivable Curses in Harry Potter. The mere fact they are "unforgivable" makes them even more menacing and ominous on top of the evil they can do. You take away the taboo of something, you remove a TON of its power. By exposing people to something, you actually lessen the power of the word because people aren't SHOCKED you used it, but rather can hear the word, process it, and can make a rational reply.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Vitamin C - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 10:37 AM)Askier Wrote:(11-06-2015, 02:21 AM)PkThunda Wrote: It is because of this that I have to speak up and let people know that some language in regards to sex-work is not okay...
(11-06-2015, 10:20 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:(11-06-2015, 09:48 AM)Askier Wrote: Holy Snip Batman
I'm guessing you and Flynt didn't actually read the OP, since they explicitly say they don't want to stop using or restrict usage of the words, or force a OMG THE PC POLICE WILL CENSOR US, especially in an RP context.
They just to bring an awareness of how the words sit in a cultural context both in RP and RL usage and the impact usage of such word carries, consciously and unconsciously in the same contexts we've constructed around them. Â They're shitty words used in shitty contexts to make people feel shitty. Â The reasons behind their entrenchment into our language are complicated, historical, and terrible and frankly we'd be better off without them in the same way we've ditched racial and homo/transphobic slurs that also used to be commonplace in a 'Well call a spade a spade because that's what it is' way of thinking.
You and I disagree and I'm fine with that. That line there though, where the OP says its not okay is indicating, to me at least, a cause for concern. Why isn't it okay? Whom gets to determines which words are okay and not? If a word hurts someone's feelings, why should we get rid of it? If you get called "Four-eyes- and it hurts your feelings, does that mean we need to ban the words -four- and eyes- to make sure the insult can never happen again?
Look, you can sit there and insult me, and Flynt, (NOW there's someone I never thought I be paired with, lulz), but that won't change my view point. I don't care how people live their life. I want everyone to be able to live their live as they desire. Do what they enjoy Love who they love. But I do not agree with you that we should ditch all these words.Â
If you censor a word, you actually GIVE it power because its taboo and that, ironically, is counter-productive. Its like the Unforgivable Curses in Harry Potter. The mere fact they are "unforgivable" makes them even more menacing and ominous on top of the evil they can do. You take away the taboo of something, you remove a TON of its power. By exposing people to something, you actually lessen the power of the word because people aren't SHOCKED you used it, but rather can hear the word, process it, and can make a rational reply.
You might be taking Hammer's reply out of context, because he's not insulting you nor Flynt. I can understand how the vernacular might indicate that and perhaps he was exaggerating the posts made in a satirical manner to get his point across.
Needless to say, there ARE some words that should be ditched in favor of political correctness or atleast used in the contexts they were intended, like F*ggot, which to my understanding is just sticks bundled together. While the logic that using a word more often makes it less taboo sounds alright on paper, if I walked around labeling everything because I think it's okay, then I'm going to get stabbed. Culturally, and in modern society, we can't control what offends people but we should control how we offend people. Self restraint, basically.Â
Most people don't like the concept, but it's the same as saying, "Hey, I'm going to keep saying rape even if it triggers you because you should learn to restrain your feelings on my liberal use of it."
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Sylentmana - 11-06-2015
I don't understand why every fringe group that exists believes that its entitled to special treatment or consideration. With a few exceptions, prostitution is largely an illegal practice. As with other illegal activities, it is not deserving of respect.
Even in places where it is legal, its still going to be looked down on as the general view is that the prostitute is selling their personal dignity as a human for coin. It's not something to be admired.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Askier - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 10:45 AM)Vitamin C Wrote: -Condensed to save space-
There was a line I recall hearing once, couldn't recall where, that was basically this:Â "You are the Boss of you."
To me, that means YOU are responsible for how you take something. You decide if something is offensive. If something is humorous. But, in the end, you are responsible for your actions.
You make a point to act like an asshole, you risk being stabbed. But my point is that, an individual should have the right to BE an asshole. And, if the words of their mouth get the ever living tar kicked outta them,tough. That's a result of their actions.
A lot of people don't like the idea that we can't all get along. That we need to not step on anyone's toes. I, in my opinion, think that is an impossibility. No one will ever like us entirely. Hell, I'm sure my last three posts have earned me a few disapprovals from people. But I expressed myself and at least I live in a country that I'm able to do that.
I really do believe that true freedom of expression is having the right to say whatever you want But I think you must be forced to deal with the reactions of your deeds and words. Which very well might be getting your ass whooped.
Again, I am not against anyone's life style choices, nor do I think the OP is wrong in their post, or that anyone's opinions are wrong. Everyone's opinions are equal, they all just don't have to agree with one another I just desire a concept where all ideas are able to equally express one another so that society, as a whole, can hear them and then choose what they desire to be the idea they prefer the most.
Honestly, I've probably derailed this thread more than was my intent and for that I'm sorry but this is a public forum and hey, its what the Greeks wanted.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Berrod Armstrong - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 11:03 AM)Sylentmana Wrote: I don't understand why every fringe group that exists believes that its entitled to special treatment or consideration. With a few exceptions, prostitution is largely an illegal practice. As with other illegal activities, it is not deserving of respect.I'm really disappointed in this response.
Even in places where it is legal, its still going to be looked down on as the general view is that the prostitute is selling their personal dignity as a human for coin. It's not something to be admired.