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An Open Letter - Lior - 10-18-2012
Kylin,
I was asked to have an open conversation with you, and I'm inclined to agree that such transparency would be good and welcome. However while I agree that such a conversation would help give some perspective to those who desire it, after further consideration I have decided to decline. Not because I don't want a transparent conversation, but because I don't believe it would do anything more than drive a further wedge between us and our respective websites. So instead, I write this open letter, so that my peace is stated.
I constructed FFXIV-RP.com with one goal: to create a space similar to the RPC for those who have come to disagree with it, and provide them an opportunity to be a part of the growing Realm Reborn community. Whether they disagree because of a personal dispute with you as an administrator, because of the behavior of the community, or simply because FFXIV lost its players, and subsequently so too did the RPC, is irrelevant. We are all entitled to our opinions, and reflecting back on my experience with Back Stage today, I'm not convinced that many of those still active here are of the same mindset.
But that's okay. Disagreements happen. It's because of these disagreements that I don't feel any good would come of harping on the same points here; we will disagree, and we will ultimately cause more trouble by pursuing that. The fact is, the roleplaying community is divided. Nothing we do here would change that. While some sort of uniting moment would have been nice, it was neither my goal nor my expectation, and so I simply ask that we each do our respective part to provide a haven for roleplayers.
You are welcome to claim that the advent of FFXIV-RP creates divisiveness, just as I am welcome to claim that the attitudes of those with whom I spoke tonight are equally divisive. We are both neither right nor wrong. Neither of us has the right to lay claim to the future of the roleplaying community, either. Do GamerEscape and ZAM tear at each others' throats in competition? No; the freedom of choice encourages a healthy community, with diverse opinions and viewpoints.
My aim isn't to grasp and tear at people like prizes to be won. I'm not looking to claim anyone from the RPC. I would hope that many people would visit both our sites, and by providing these different atmospheres, we provide places where roleplayers of differing mindsets can feel comfortable, and hopefully we can achieve better roleplayer retention by doing so. I am looking to build a new experience, with a new atmosphere, because I believe it will do some good. You don't have to agree with that, but do not vilify me for expressing my ability to choose. I would be more than happy to work in tandem with the RPC; while past experiences leave me concerned regarding my ability to work directly with you, I have no qualms against mutually supporting one another.
I won't debate this point further, however I will agree to disagree. FFXIV-RP was built for the sake of inclusion and mutual respect. Keeping with that, I am extending my willingness to honor the RPC, and not allow this disagreement to come between us or our roleplay.
I sincerely hope that we can jointly build a healthy and vital roleplaying community for A Realm Reborn, and create a climate of respect and cooperation.
~Lior
Re: An Open Letter - Blade - 10-19-2012
(My bad, misunderstood the OP!)
Re: An Open Letter - Ellie - 10-19-2012
First of all— and I don't mean anything by this, because it's a common mistake, but...
Lior Wrote:So instead, I write this open letter, so that my peace is stated.
It's supposed to be "piece", not "peace". As in "I said my piece."
Secondly, I don't buy this bit about you making an RP community for those who dislike the way Kylin runs things. I've looked all over both of these websites, and there are no substantive differences. The rules are practically carbon copies of each other apart from your website having an explicit rule against plagiarism, and both websites have almost the exact same features apart from the RPC having a wiki and bazaar section. On face value, there's no substantive reason that any given new or returning roleplayer would prefer one website over the other.
In fact, the only substantial difference between the RPC and your website is that you get to be in charge, and not the person you have a personal vendetta against. I'm sorry, but that's really childish—and I mean that literally. This is exactly the kind of self-serving take-my-ball-and-go-home behavior I would expect to see if I were observing a group of actual children. Instead of trying to reunite the RP community— which would benefit everyone— you chose to try to build your own clubhouse, as if you just wanted to feel more important than Kylin.
Kylin's only runs and moderates a website. He's not a king, and he's not a god. He doesn't hold any more influence over the RP community than anyone else. I don't consider myself to be on his "side". I want to be a neutral party to all this, but you are making it very VERY difficult for me to do that, and I'm sure many others feel the same.
Re: An Open Letter - Xenedra - 10-19-2012
It's just a website.
Is it really necessary to get upset over someone making a different website for the same purpose? When I was originally told about this second website idea, I also thought that it was a great possibility that all it would do is divide people. You know what, though? It's only going to divide the community of people pick sides. If you're concerned about the websites building a rift, simply make that conscious choice to not let them. What causes a divide, and honestly any issues at all, is when people take something as an insult that isn't at all meant to be. Don't like the website? Don't go. Making a stink over it doesn't do anything but cause the strife in the community that people are already concerned about. There are multiple websites for the same thing in ABUNDANCE all over the internet. You enjoy something, you make a website for it. Getting all "she wore my prom dress!" over it is silly.
I intend to support both websites as long as their caretakers plan on putting the work in. I certainly appreciate the work that Kylin has put in both here and in game to bolster the RP community in XIV and if someone else is willing to do the same, why discourage it? Putting someone with big dreams down before they get started is a good way to lose a world of adventure, and isn't that what we're here for?
Re: An Open Letter - Verence - 10-19-2012
Keisuna Wrote:Hate to be nitpicky, but if that can of worms is opened already... Actually, he's correct. It's archaic English, but to speak your peace means to say something so that it won't bother you by leaving it unsaid, thus granting you peace. One could argue STATING your peace is a misuse, but I'm already flogging a dead horse and don't feel up for a BBQ.Lior Wrote:So instead, I write this open letter, so that my peace is stated.It's supposed to be "peice", not "peace". As in "I said my piece."
Keisuna Wrote:In fact, the only substantial difference between the RPC and your website is that you get to be in charge, and not the person you have a personal vendetta against. I'm sorry, but that's really childish—and I mean that literally. This is exactly the kind of self-serving take-my-ball-and-go-home behavior I would expect to see if I were observing a group of actual children. Instead of trying to reunite the RP community— which would benefit everyone— you chose to try to build your own clubhouse, as if you just wanted to feel more important than Kylin.This is actually really discouraging. This is precisely the sort of attitude that tore the community apart in the first place, and to see it alive and kicking with such fervor makes me despair for our future. There will be no lines but those we draw. No divisions but those we create. It's so very hard to make friends when we keep flinging accusations.
Kylin's only runs and moderates a website. He's not a king, and he's not a god. He doesn't hold any more influence over the RP community than anyone else. I don't consider myself to be on his "side". I want to be a neutral party to all this, but you are making it very VERY difficult for me to do that, and I'm sure many others feel the same.
One of the most insulting, harmful things you can do in a debate is to assume you know the other person's motivations and throw those in their face. Another is to question their maturity, in so doing calling your own into question. If we cannot discuss things civilly, then there is truly no hope for our community. It's actually why I took a several month break a while back, in the process declining a position as a community moderator here. I lost hope. Please don't crush it once more.
I don't know you that well Keisuna, but I've at least talked to you a few times. You missed a lot of the major fallout that got us where we are today, and a lot of it looked very much like what you just posted. I had my role to play back then and while I still stand by my views, I'm not necessarily proud of how they were stated.
Harsh words, accusations, and bitterness are the worst thing that can possibly happen right now. Chill. Talk. Roleplay. Live and let live. The RPC isn't going anywhere. People need a place they can feel comfortable - here OR there, hopefully both - to be motivated to interact. They will have different cultures, different climates. THAT is the reason why I believe it will be beneficial. If the culture and climate of the RPC is one of vitriol and abuse... Well, I know which one I'll prefer. Please, don't make it that. It's your choice.
Re: An Open Letter - Blade - 10-19-2012
If it is just a website, why then, is there a huge post on the RPC announcing it? I can guarantee that neither Zam nor GamerEscape went to each other's boards to write anything similar to the post we have here. You know what they did? They just went and made their own site, and went about their business.
I don't think anything here would pretend to lay claim and have dominion on the entire FFXIV RP community, certainly not Kylin. This site is a hub. You don't have to like the hub, and you can make your own. Making a big ol post talking about the things that haven't worked with this hub and how that lead to you deciding to make your own is, antagonistic in nature, and yes, it is divisive. There was nothing stopping you from just doing it and going about advertising it on your own.
It was unnecessary for this letter to be written. As you have indicated already, no one should hold you to blame for starting your own RPC. Why, then, do you feel it necessary to make such a declaration? Instead of just "doing your own thing," you write a big long letter about what it hasn't work and how you are forced and left with no choice but to make your own website. You also cite comments from Back Stage twice in a negative tone. Then you try and cover your tracks and say it was all in good fun and for the better of the community, make us forget the inherently spiteful comments made prior.
I'm not saying I won't visit your website. But this was not a mature way to go about it, and that does not reflect well on its leadership.
Re: An Open Letter - Mihana - 10-19-2012
Okay so... I don't really know what to say that probably hasn't been said but I'm putting my two cents into this. First, I don't know why there was so much "TALE this" and "TALE that" going on. I don't speak for the entire LS but really, all Lior has done which can be even seen on our forums, is came to us first. Far as I know, that's the extent of it. I get the feeling some think just because we've been approached we may be seen as taking control or something. Again, this is just what I got the feeling about. This came from a discussion with someone earlier this evening that asked me about what I knew. Anyway what I really want to touch upon is this discussion though. This is from my own personal opinion and nothing more but I see no wrong in ultimately having two websites existing together here. We have other news outlets for the game, why can't there be for the RP community? Some don't like the RPC maybe, I don't know exactly why and it's not my business.
While I support Lior's idea for a new site I am ultimately for the RPC itself. I don't visit much around to know what goes on which is my own fault, nobody else's but I've never had reason to question Castiel's leadership or the RPC itself beyond a past incident I'm well past. Castiel has done nothing from my own standpoint, but helped support the community even if it means posting events that some of us may have not attended. Really, that's our own problem, and not his. Either way I applaud him for trying to support the community. Here's what I really would hope to see between the two sites:
Castiel and Lior share news on the community, happenings, events, etc. Like I said if someone doesn't like the RPC they can still get that same news elsewhere. I see no harm in this as the priority is the community, not which site is the most popular. If someone posts a thread on the RPC then it should be Lior's responsibility to copy it to his site just the same. From my understanding the RPC is focused mainly on Balmung, whereas Lior's will be global, correct? Why not try to collaborate the two?
Lior's can hold primarily information for all servers (There's bound to be more than just Balmung out there.) for those not on our own server while the RPC focuses primarily on Balmung itself. I don't know, I may be rambling a little and I apologize. All I do know is if there are any differences and the two are serious about trying to support the community as a whole there shouldn't be any reason these cannot be set aside. What matters is ensuring the game community knows of our existence and making an easy and convenient way to find out information about us. If I've said anything out of bounds or whatnot, I apologize. Thank you.
Re: An Open Letter - Ellie - 10-19-2012
Other communities benefit from competition because their members generally don't interact with people from other community websites. In the FFXIV RP community, we all interact in varying degrees in the same game, no matter what community website we go to. Websites like the RPC serve as a hub to facilitate and foster opportunities for that interaction, and it isn't helped at all by having competitors, especially if the members of both forums aren't actively encouraged to advertise their free companies and linkshells on the other website.
This not only puts an extra burden on people posting content, who now have to post on two forums in order to advertise linkshells and events or else be satisfied with not inviting everyone to the party, but it also puts a burden on people who are trying to keep up with what's going on, who already have the game to play and their linkshell communities to read and post in, but now have an additional two websites to check if they want to keep up with absolutely everything that's going on.
And the people who only post and frequent one website or another are not always going to be just the people who want to split the community. Not everyone has the time or patience for going to more than one website for the same purpose and mostly the same content, so they'll end up choosing whichever one seems prettier, or more active, or the one that has the most members. It's only going to make things harder for everyone.
The only way I could ever really see this as beneficial in any way is if there are people on the new community website who would never frequent or post on the current RPC even if it was the only option (which is likely a given, seeing how stubborn some people are) At least then you'd have a way to reach everyone.
The thing is, I want to see this community come together again so that we don't need two websites. That's why this new website upsets me, because it means we're getting further away from unity, not closer..
EDIT: Okay, yeah...Verence is right in that the venom in my first post was uncalled for. And although I do regret the words now, I'll leave them unedited to perhaps serve as a reminder for the future. The fact that I can't see any other conclusion as to why Lior is doing this doesn't give me license to assume the only option I see is correct. For this much, I'm sorry Lior.
I do, however, stand by my position that this is a bad idea that will only harm the community by making it more difficult for everyone to stay connected. We don't get to talk a lot, Verence, and I would really like to RP with you more because I remember my first time roleplaying in FFXIV with you, and you were great person and a great roleplayer! But I don't get to do that anymore because we've grown apart. You're in a community website that I can't join in on without more or less throwing away all the other linkshells that I've dedicated myself to, and I don't feel like I know you well enough to just ask you out of the blue. Our being on different community websites has literally kept me from having great RP with you, and I hate it.
Re: An Open Letter - Eva - 10-19-2012
What I find most upsetting is that no one that supports this "other RPC" made any effort to establish any sort of communication with Kylin. I'm of a mindset that that the energy and effort going into an additional - and in my opinion unnecessary - RPC could better be spent in cooperation and helping make the existing one better and endeavor to bring RPers together, ideally on one forum. But this communication was not ever even attempted. And that leaves me feeling somewhat wary about the future of this project.
Re: An Open Letter - Kylin - 10-19-2012
It's a very pretty website. Good luck ^^
Re: An Open Letter - Sienna - 10-19-2012
If both sites are hosted maturely, and -positively- and openly support/promote each other, then there's not really as much of an issue to me.
I don't agree with two separate Balmung-related sites, and Lior - Yours being global will have a Balmung one. Why not have that specific section direct to here? And then this site here has a section in which people from other servers could be directed to yours?
That way, it's not so much of a divided community, over a redirection to a specific area? Balmung RPers would have cause to be here, because it's -Balmung-'s main hub. Meanwhile, Balmung RPers and those from other servers hold reason to go to ffxiv-rp because it will cover global items, like events planned by people from each server to create a storyline that everyone can be involved in (regardless of server)?
Re: An Open Letter - Lior - 10-19-2012
Blade, I wrote this as an alternative to the open debate with Castiel/Kylin that was requested of me. It is in no way meant to be an advertisement. It's a catch-22; I'm being called out for doing the exact thing you suggest: acting independently and disregarding the RPC, and at the same time I am being chided by you for taking the RPC into account and opening a line of discussion, albeit not in the same capacity that was originally requested.
Keisuna, thank you for that apology. I'm not looking to change opinions, I only want to have a discourse that is free of assumptions. After last night I wasn't convinced such a thing was possible, but I'm willing to admit I could be wrong, particularly if your own demeanor is anything to go by.
I am also willing to admit that your other statements aren't without their merit. The comparison of ZAM and GamerEscape is not a wholly accurate one because yes, in an ideal world all roleplayers should strive to create the most interactive community possible. This is why we create websites such as these, and why we try to coordinate on the same server as much as possible. For one reason or another however, the community here has fractured. Individual opinions vary, but the end result is mostly the same: they have a reason for not wanting to engage with the RPC, but are interested in an alternative. Unity would be wonderful, but some people don't feel it's a realistic goal, and so the alternative is to provide these people with a space and an opportunity capable of filling a similar role as the RPC in an environment they feel more comfortable in, or believe is more conducive to a positive future.
I'm not doing this because I want to supplant Kylan; he has nothing but my admiration and respect for all that he's done over the last few years. Consulting with him and offering my time and energy to the RPC was the very first thought I had. It's my experiences attempting to work with him in the past, and the opinions of myself and some others, which influenced me against doing so.
Part of that is due to past behaviors in which some feel that Kylin acted less as a caretaker of this website and a facilitator of community, and more as a leader and influencor. I'm not saying that this is still the case, but I do feel it's necessary to emphasize that any claims of me doing what I've done to assume any sort of leadership or ownership of the community go against my entire philosophy. The events of two years prior were due to my belief that the RPC belonged to the community, and was not beholden to any one individual. My belief hasn't changed, this is a core philosophy of mine going forward, and is in particular why I chose hosting on Enjin where no one individual has absolute control over the databases and servers.
This brings me to a concern that is being reinforced by some of the responses in this thread: I'm seeing words like "leader" bandied around. Leadership is, in my opinion, the problem and not the solution. If I am to be considered a leader, it should be in no more capacity than my designing of the website, support of its policies, and propagation of its advertisements.
Eva, I've already explained above why coordination was not attempted, so I won't reiterate that here. For what it's worth, I will say that I am sorry for not approaching Kylin prior to "going live". More than that however, because I don't believe any one person should be representative of the community, I apologize to the active members of the RPC for not consulting with you. I can't expect you to understand my reasons for not doing so, but I hope you can at least acknowledge them, just as I acknowledge your reasons for disagreeing.
I hope this helps address some of your questions and concerns. I'm at work, so I can only fit so much in a limited window of time, but I'll continue to check in for as long as people are interested in discussing this (amicably).
(Also, Sienna, I apologize that I didn't have time to respond to you directly, but I hope that some of what I explained above can at least shed some light on why not all Balmung roleplayers would want to utilize the RPC)
Re: An Open Letter - Blade - 10-19-2012
Quote:Blade, I wrote this as an alternative to the open debate with Castiel/Kylin that was requested of me. It is in no way meant to be an advertisement. It's a catch-22; I'm being called out for doing the exact thing you suggest: acting independently and disregarding the RPC, and at the same time I am being chided by you for taking the RPC into account and opening a line of discussion, albeit not in the same capacity that was originally requested.
Actually I think people just suggested you talk to Kylin. But even if I didn't know that, you tell it to me straight in your opening lines.
Quote:Kylin,
I was asked to have an open conversation with you, and I'm inclined to agree that such transparency would be good and welcome. However while I agree that such a conversation would help give some perspective to those who desire it, after further consideration I have decided to decline.
I am thus confused as to where exactly, then, I am calling you out for doing something we suggested, when in fact, you open in saying that you aren't going to do what we had suggested?
Re: An Open Letter - Sienna - 10-19-2012
I understand that not everyone would wish to use the RPC for whatever reason, but many new players may never even know it exists and it'd be good for them to have the opportunity to come here, just as much as the reverse.
EDIT: Blade. This conversation occured yesterday on the LS ingame. Several people requested for this to occur, so that any discussions can't be twisted as they'd be openly viewable to everyone.
Re: An Open Letter - Eva - 10-19-2012
Quote:This brings me to a concern that is being reinforced by some of the responses in this thread: I'm seeing words like "leader" bandied around. Leadership is, in my opinion, the problem and not the solution. If I am to be considered a leader, it should be in no more capacity than my designing of the website, support of its policies, and propagation of its advertisements.And this is different than what Kylin has been doing for the past 2+ years... how exactly?
Quote:Eva, I've already explained above why coordination was not attempted, so I won't reiterate that here. For what it's worth, I will say that I am sorry for not approaching Kylin prior to "going live". More than that however, because I don't believe any one person should be representative of the community, I apologize to the active members of the RPC for not consulting with you. I can't expect you to understand my reasons for not doing so, but I hope you can at least acknowledge them, just as I acknowledge your reasons for disagreeing.I have no qualms about the multiple RPC's. I, for one, do not plan on utilizing yours because I find it to be vestigal and a slight to the RP community. As I said last night - and I will reiterate - I feel that your efforts in creating a new forum system without first trying to work through whatever differences it is you feel you have with the RPC and those who represent it (and it's not just Kylin) undermine the purpose of the RPC in unifying the community, and rather than bringing RPers together in one place to coordinate things I feel your site will only serve to confuse potential RPers and is a deliberate slap in the face towards everything the RPC stands for.
I want nothing to do with you or your website.