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The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Printable Version

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The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Leggerless - 01-12-2016

Ahem. I suppose it's time for... theorycrafting. Not the typical mathematical/statistical analysis I usually do; this isn't Elitist Jerks.

Communities and players are trading genuine, social interaction for efficiency.

That's the thesis. Read it carefully. Done? Read it again.

I've been thinking to myself about something I've seen not just in this forum but across every MMO and communities at large; I thought to make a thread to air such thoughts and possibly dirty laundry. I'll use two example MMOs here.

Suppose we'll look at FFXI first. The more I think about it, the less I think people didn't form social groups because they wanted to, but because they had to. It was efficient. The fastest way to get content done. People used groups and other players to get levels as quickly as possible. At the end of the day, you the player and everyone else you're likely playing with may leave once they finish their objective and not see each other again. In that same instance, you may also retain a few contacts for leveling so they can help yourself level up.

Not much more I want to say about FFXI, so let's move onto FFXIV. FFXIV is a weird crowd to work with. Players want to improve, yet are shunned by the anti-parser crowd and the "git gud" players in general. NA/EU culture seems whack, distorted, and designed here in such a manner that the only player that matters... is you. Afterall, you paid the sub for the game right? What do other people care what you do with the sub? There's occasionally content that requires a group setting, but almost all of the time everything you need to do can be done by yourself or done through the automatic group matcher. There's not as much of a need for you to go out an form a group; a group will often be formed for you instead.

Is there a point between comparing FFXI and FFXIV at this point? Sure there is. People made social groups because it was the path of least resistance in FFXI. People don't make as many--if almost no--groups because it isn't really required in FFXIV. It's whatever is the most efficient, if you ask me.

Now, let's introduce theorycrafting's effect on a community--the mathematical analysis kind. Though originally prominent in Starcraft, an RTS, it's biggest debut in NA/EU MMOs, imo, surfaced at Burning Crusade's launch for WoW in 2007 and Elitist Jerks' emergence. Optimization now reached MMOs, whereas it was typically confined to RPGs like KOTOR and RTSs like Starcraft and Warcraft III. Before theorycrafting became a "thing," playing whatever class you thought was fun to play is perfectly acceptable. Now that it's around in full force, playing the most optimal class to its greatest potential is a major concern. What happens when your class doesn't become or is no longer the optimal class? Complain to the developers to balance it out, of course. Having fun paled in comparison to being optimal; the highest benefit for the lowest cost.

Suppose being efficient applied to groups and social communities. Let's do an example: Say you want to run a dungeon. You can do a few things:

1. Join a current group that has experience and could carry you through.
2. Join a group that doesn't have much experience, but will still take you along.
3. Make your own group to beat the dungeon.

So, let's assume I, as a player, want to get through something with as little a cost to myself as possible. I'd say choice #1 looks pretty nice compared to the rest of them. I can join a group that knows what they're doing and can essentially carry me through it all without me trying as much as possible. I can take it easy, not exert as much energy, and just have fun. Sounds pretty beneficial, right?

Well. Time for a bold opinion. If you picked choice #1, you may be the problem. Afterall, you're expecting other people to play the game in a way that picks up your slack--something that contributes to hatred from the carriers, laziness from the carried, and destructive behavior all over. If the carriers start expressing hatred for these "new" players they have to carry through and help all the time, I guarantee you they will stop doing runs with random players due to multiple bad experiences. They want to be as efficient as possible and the "new"/bad players aren't helping them out. If you picked choice #2 or #3, I'd say you're doing fine and I couldn't care less. At least you're with other people in the same boat as you. #3, however, could be as destructive as #1 if you invite other players who carry you through.

Take a small break now. Done? Hail Hydrate, get some water, and keep reading.

Now we have ourselves a divide of exceptional players (the carriers) and terrible players (the carried) in the community. I'm not specialised in psychology, but I'm pretty sure players remember bad experiences more vividly than good experiences. Say "good" players keep pairing up with the bad/carried players and continue receiving bad experiences. The "good" players forced to deal with the bad players seclude themselves off and avoid the public scene.

Sound familiar with how/why FCs and people hole up within their own cliques? It should.

As more players seclude themselves from the public scene, they sacrifice the number of connections and interactions they could make with others. When the good players are completely isolated, all that is left are the bad players. When the bad players are all that's left for the newer players to play with, the number of bad players will increase. And when good or average players see these players not caring, they may wonder "why should we care?" and the ranks of the badders increase ever more.

Now we have a bunch of bad players present in the works. What's the easiest and lowest thought-provoking way to tell people they're bad? By telling them they're bad. And by telling them they're bad, I mean insulting them. Offering advice requires some knowledge you have to extract out of your brain, type out in a hopefully understandable answer, and then hope that they accept the advice. It's much simpler to tell someone "you suck at NIN" than it is to say "You should consider keeping up DE, SF, and MU." What do most people do? Take the path of least resistance of course--players start to throw out insults.

Now you have a community that tosses out insults at each other, degrades each other, and contains players doomed to suck at a game in addition to plenty of players that feel it isn't worth the time to help out the players lagging behind. Players who are insulted or feel weak generate anti-elitist, anti-parser, and anti-whatever groups to unionize themselves against the haters.

So... congratulations! You're a MOBA, Harry! When a community reaches the MOBA point, the best solution is scorched earth tactics. Destroy it all, rebuild it from the ground up, and pray to whatever gods (or to science) that it goes much better the second time around. Hopefully that cycle won't repeat, right?

Let's ask Satan for a comment on that! What say you, Satan?

"Societies work in cycles, Leggerless. They may be great for a time, but they'll always fall at the end. Least Hell doesn't have this issue; we're going strong for all eternity."

Thanks, Satan. Have a cookie on the way out; they're chocolate chip.

So, what can you do to make your community not reach the MOBA point as quickly? Plenty of things, but they require a continued effort. Making interactions with people instead of taking the most efficient route through everything.

1. Have a smile on your face sometimes. I don't want to pity the fool. I'm a player, not Mr. T.
2. Don't be an extremist. There's more than just your side to an argument.
3. Don't be an entitled little shit. Learn how to be somewhat self-sufficient; in the process of becoming self-sufficient you can inspire others to do the same.
4. Try to have fun when you can. If you're too much of a hardass, everything looks gray, mucky, and like a black lagoon and CoD color palette merged into one grotesque scene.
5. If someone is offering you advice, take it with a grain of salt and try not to lash out at them unless you have plenty of evidence suggesting the advice is bad. If you do lash out, they may stop helping others in general. Don't be that player!
6. You've probably reached a breaking point once or twice. Let me tell you this. The world is your oyster. Fucking own it. JUST DO IT. DON'T LET YOU DREAMS BE DREAMS! Show those naysayers that you're not just all talk, can walk the walk, and break out of your comfort zone!
7. A consistently above average community can get more done than a community made of both exceptional and bad people. It's called quality control and yes, it is a very real thing. Japanese (and the Wu Tang Clan, by coincidence) ain't nothing to fuck with; they made the Kanban system and have their quality up to at least 5 sigma.
8. Macho Man Randy Savage says the sky is the limit? Show him otherwise. Snap into a Slim Jim. Transform into a dragon and yell out quotations. For the community, make it the day that they receive a great blessing. For you... make it so it is just another Tuesday.
9. Learn how to lead a group. You don't have to lead a group yourself all the time, but you really should know what it takes to be a leader should you be forced into that position. WoW Raid Lead guides can give you a starting point. The concepts of leading are very consistent across video games. At the very least, you're going in knowing something rather than nothing and people can appreciate the fact you took the initiative to lead the group when no one else did/could.
10. Respect. It is earned, not given. Earn it if you want it. Also applies to trust.

Now that I've made my giant wall of text I'm heading to the Winchester, grabbing a pint, and waiting for this all to blow over.

P.S. Want to apply this whole thing to RPers? Replace dungeons and skill with roleplays and roleplaying ability.

P.S.S. To those who may think I'm throwing my airs at a soundbox, don't worry. I may as well post a copy of this to Reddit, flair it as "Satirical Discussion" and see what happens.

RE: The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Warren Castille - 01-12-2016

I got to your first paragraph and as someone who played XI for a long time, you're fundamentally incorrect that bonds formed for efficiency. A lot of people were content to fail with their friends instead of leapfrogging from group to group looking for randoms to clear with. Your reputation would get annihilated that way and the XI community had pleeeeenty of unofficial boards where it was safe to call out people being shitty people. I can think of four off the top of my head, and that's not counting the ones I didn't know about.

I will now read the rest of your post. You're down one early, though.

RE: The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Warren Castille - 01-12-2016

Feels like pretty flimsy logic. Optimizing has existed long before MMOs existed. Cliques are a facet of society. The good players aren't abandoning the game; They're still running roulettes and dungeons and forming PF groups right with the baddies.

You used a lot of words to say that society is functioning as it always has.

Edit: If you had an actual point, it's lost in all the posturing and assumptions being made.

RE: The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Val - 01-12-2016

Honestly, I have to agree with Warren. Everything you've said has been around constantly. I know (and was one of) the original WoW raiders that refused to use mods simply because they felt it was cheating. If the devs wanted attacks called out, they'd add it to the game naturally (and they eventually did, but having it so early on destroyed any sense of challenge).

As for this game's community being MOBA-like, nah. I can't agree with that one bit. MOBA communities are horrid enough to keep me from ever bothering to play in them. You're going to have pricks wherever you go, but the design of the MOBA space in general tends to bring out the worst in people.

RE: The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Warren Castille - 01-12-2016

(01-12-2016, 12:21 PM)Val Wrote: Honestly, I have to agree with Warren. Everything you've said has been around constantly. I know (and was one of) the original WoW raiders that refused to use mods simply because they felt it was cheating. If the devs wanted attacks called out, they'd add it to the game naturally (and they eventually did, but having it so early on destroyed any sense of challenge).

As for this game's community being MOBA-like, nah. I can't agree with that one bit. MOBA communities are horrid enough to keep me from ever bothering to play in them. You're going to have pricks wherever you go, but the design of the MOBA space in general tends to bring out the worst in people.

I think that's because MOBAs are a 40-minutes-or-more team combat that's actually decided in the first five minutes who is going to win.

Source: something I read somewhere one time, ain't never played a MOBA

RE: The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Hammersmith - 01-12-2016

I'm with Warren and Val on this.

"Genuine for efficency" only applies to the far end of late game purestrain raiders.  The majority of players make friends, bring friends with them, and then play in those groups because they legitimately enjoy playing in those groups, or -leave-, not soldier on for phat lootz.  

That in mind, your friends also arn't mindless loot zombies, and treating them like such isn't being a Real Human, so party finder and the like lets you do quickies without always having to reach into the Organization box.  It's a good balance of convenience and if anything also a sign that makes the game fun to play with just picking it up instead of needing a say: Raid calander to run dungeons with groups when you want.  

Efficiency doesn't mean lack of genuine interaction/enjoyment.  The two can, and often do, act in concert for an enjoyable game experience that people want to stick with.

RE: The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Val - 01-12-2016

(01-12-2016, 12:23 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(01-12-2016, 12:21 PM)Val Wrote: Honestly, I have to agree with Warren. Everything you've said has been around constantly. I know (and was one of) the original WoW raiders that refused to use mods simply because they felt it was cheating. If the devs wanted attacks called out, they'd add it to the game naturally (and they eventually did, but having it so early on destroyed any sense of challenge).

As for this game's community being MOBA-like, nah. I can't agree with that one bit. MOBA communities are horrid enough to keep me from ever bothering to play in them. You're going to have pricks wherever you go, but the design of the MOBA space in general tends to bring out the worst in people.

I think that's because MOBAs are a 40-minutes-or-more team combat that's actually decided in the first five minutes who is going to win.

Source: something I read somewhere one time, ain't never played a MOBA

You're not wrong. An incredibly small percentage of MOBA players will ever be spotlighted. Yes, you have an internet moniker, but the chances of you running into the same people after the hour-long match are slim to none, so why bother being nice in a competitive environment? Not to mention that if you're grouped with people trolling you or just being dumb, it can be frustrating as you know you've wasted an hour of your time. They keep trying to find ways to make the environment more friendly, but short of actually changing the entire design, I don't see how it will ever happen.

I played League back in the day when it only had a handful of champions. When its community became shit, I bailed and went to Smite when it was still in beta. Now its community is equally as horrid, as is every other MOBA I've ever tried. At this point I just stay away. If I want someone to tell me (or others) how bad we are, I just spend a little time with Faye. She's Satan or something, or so people tell me.

RE: The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Chompie - 01-13-2016

I think the moral of the story is not that nasty, annoying facets of how communities work exist, but rather that everyone who's distressed about (or even has come to accept) The Bad Parts has gotta be nice and play nice.

RE: The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Syf - 01-13-2016

I wouldn't say that FFXIV's community isn't even close to that of a MOBA. For the most part in this game, I've had pleasant experiences from beginning to end. I could highlight some of the most egregious moments that I've had in PvE or RP, but those situations are rare. They just tend to stick in my mind because it is in our nature to highlight the bad, and share it with others. I run DF roulettes almost daily, and the vast majority of those runs are smooth and without issue. I've joined and hosted learning groups for new content, and found those to be very pleasant as well. Maybe I'm just lucky, patient, or know how to communicate to people if they need to improve. I also don't know a lot of people that would treat social interaction as currency to be traded or bartered for in exchange for loot.

As for the bad I've experienced in the game, I think that MOBAs are a lot less terrible on that front. I'd rather be insulted to my face about my decisions than to learn about all of the cloaked dialogue that's being shared about me. It's probably because I'm used to more than ten years of MOBA abuse, though I find it's a lot less common the better you are at the game.

RE: The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Warren Castille - 01-13-2016

When it comes to being snotty to people in dungeons and stuff, I like to think it's the death of a thousand paper cuts.

I've been playing MMOs since 2004. I spent my time as a newb. I had to learn a lot in the games I played (mostly FFXI and WoW, with some dabbling on others for short times). I've had my share of being made fun of instead of educated, but I've also had good people talk to me about how to play better. In time, I changed role to the person who knew the game very well and was spending more and more time with people who knew less (that's how it goes when time in and experience go nearly hand in hand.)

The first time something happens to inconvenience you, it's not much more than a moment to grump about and move on. It does come to a point, however, when you start to go a little crazy. People playing wearing the wrong gear. People playing and emphasizing "play style" over anything else. People just sandbagging. People unwilling to learn a mechanic. People unable to learn a mechanic. Wipes, and deaths, and groups breaking, and disbands and votekicks and namecalling and venom and drama and whatever.

Do this for a decade. Your tolerance for people the same mistakes you've been trying to be patient with for years will erode. Some people handle it better than others, but it still takes a toll.

RE: The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Alderique - 01-13-2016

I do agree that we've traded social interaction for efficiency. It was a pain in the ass to manually form groups in MMOs, but in retrospect I valued forming those relationships with people. Adding friends after a good dungeon run and maybe running with them again in the future. My network is currently RP based, and people that I would enjoy running dungeons with just automatically queue for their duty finder on their own. I wouldn't mind more premades with the friends I've made.

I get very anxious when it comes to judgment, but I've had very few negative experiences in-game, actually. Most people have been really nice, and while I've had some bad parties, nothing's been to the point where I can't tolerate it. I've heard more negativity about dungeons on RPC and in Linkshells than I have in duties.

RE: The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Val - 01-13-2016

(01-13-2016, 01:53 PM)Alderique Wrote: I do agree that we've traded social interaction for efficiency. It was a pain in the ass to manually form groups in MMOs, but in retrospect I valued forming those relationships with people. Adding friends after a good dungeon run and maybe running with them again in the future. My network is currently RP based, and people that I would enjoy running dungeons with just automatically queue for their duty finder on their own. I wouldn't mind more premades with the friends I've made.

I get very anxious when it comes to judgment, but I've had very few negative experiences in-game, actually. Most people have been really nice, and while I've had some bad parties, nothing's been to the point where I can't tolerate it. I've heard more negativity about dungeons on RPC and in Linkshells than I have in duties.

WoW started the trend of efficiency over social interaction with many of its systems because people would constantly complain about waiting in Westfall for an hour (or two, or three) to find a group for Deadmines. But no one forces people to use these systems. If you want to be social, you can still spam cities/zones/areas looking for a group. No one ever took that away. We, as people, inherently want things that are easier and therefore decide to use what's been given to us. Like you, though, I think I had a lot more fun in MMOs and created more of a bond when I had to look for dungeons in such a manner as opposed to one-offing them in a roulette and never speaking to the group again. 

I'll have to agree that I have had pretty few bad experiences in dungeons and whatnot myself VS the woes people complain about here. If something awful happens or I get someone crappy in a dungeon, I tend to just deal with it and move on. I don't really see the point or need to air out laundry on a public forum, but I suppose that's just my general way of not wanting to bother others or air out things openly Smile

RE: The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Momo - 01-13-2016

There are some great points in here I think.  Both from Leggerless, and in replies.  Calling FFXI efficient...well, in any form of that word, it is hard to grasp.  Calling FFXIV efficient, sure, in some ways, certainly in the ways of communication, if possibly in the ways of grouping as well.  Everything in FFXI was tough, it was a more traditional MMO, like that of the some of the original bigger MMOs, and as such, during the time, with the technology available, it was as high quality as it could be without being state of the art, which I think meant further limitations in some cases.

Mentioning that, XI was a great game for developing friendships, hard earned and meant for keeps, because of the rough nature of finding people that you liked, that would actively play and connect all the time, and that were willing to jump through the hoops immediately presented, to then jump through further hoops with harder content and participating with those who maybe needed some teaching.  As I said, this meant strong bonds between players, you had to have them, not necessarily for efficiency, but to truly play the content and have fun, you really needed those people or you would often just plain fail.  This also forced some out of their "hardcore" player shells, into accepting more diverse group of party member jobs (though of course, later in content, there was a definite disparity between some jobs and active available play for those "weaker" jobs), because it was simply more rare to find dedicated players because of the mettle of the content versus the player ability.

In FFXIV, perhaps things are too easy?  WoW...well...is prone to trolls, and the very swampfolk of the internet, crawling out from under their cesspool, slime layered rocks, and joining parties to be bad examples of the human race whenever permitted.  I have seen, in the past, some of my good friends turn on each other over job changes and respecs, because the nature of WoW, allows for these types of interactions and players to thrive among one another, in easy alliances that fall apart and are made again, filled with trollish nonsense, and good play, but with little enjoyment taken from it, other than the gloating of "OPness" in skill to anyone who will listen.  That is the nature of basement dwelling folk (Not Hobbits or Hufflepuffs, because my god were those predictions wrong)  of the nerd world that is gaming, who don't leave their house, and die of heart attack from too much redbull and doritos, they just aren't meant to be good people, and they bring others down with them.

FFXIV, is not like that, but we do get some of that culture here.  We get to skim that culture, while skimming the casual player culture too, both which bring a lot of negative to the table, but make things much easier in regard to playing the game.  I would venture that most RPers (at least on RPC), with the exception of some vocal few, do not have the mindset of raiders, and are rather more casual than anything.  Stated above, that sounds okay, but has plenty of negatives, including but not limited to: Easy gathering but equally easy drama and breakup due to ease of those pairings, less knowledgeable players on all fronts who don't contribute as much to the content that the "higher tier" casual players would like to be a part of, and the "whatever I want, because I paid mindset" which has a whole list of negative things that come with it.

You can sort of tell my distaste of the "casual" player mindset.  You did pay, indeed, good on you, but some of us would at times like to pay you not to play equally.  We would like you to learn the bare minimum of what it takes to get the loot and glamour you want, so that we don't have to carry your every single time unwillingly, and without prior knowledge of needing to do so coming in to a party.  "Bu-buh-but I paid though!", yes, once again I would like to congratulate you on doing the bare minimum to be in the game, now would you kindly not enter the DF and find someone who willingly wants to take you to get things to make you look good while your /say and /em interactions take up part of the screen however small at all times of the day.  See that, that is how I feel at times.  If you know me well, I am not totally unreasonable, I am not totally rude or a jerk to every person I meet, but I am not untruthful in these matters either, I get these feelings, and I am not afraid to express them, just as those who "I paid!" me, get to wear that as some sort of badge.  As Warren said...these things do happen, the negative sticks out in your mind after a while, and it builds up until you explode, and if you are a decent person you try not to let that happen in random parties with all the frustration that brings already.  But it does happen, and on those rare occasions that person isn't out to be a troll, but rather is fed up with wanting to enjoy something but getting brought down at every (seemingly every mind you) turn.

Anyways, that all got away from me, but as I said, some of Leggerless's remarks did hit home, but not for efficiency, but rather for a complicated situation made both easier and more complex due to FFXIV's unique position in gaming at the moment.  Not sure how to fix it, or if it will ever change, but there you have it.  All you can say is good luck to it, and hope for the best when you log on to play instead of RP on some days.


~Momo

RE: The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Cailean Lockwood - 01-14-2016

... Heheh... BBC... :3

RE: The Big Bold Community (aka the BBC) - Momo - 01-14-2016

Cailean brings up a very good point that I think we should all consider in our minds a few more times...BBC has something to offer in all it's various forms.