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+--- Thread: Character Development: When is too much? (/showthread.php?tid=1498)
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Character Development: When is too much? - E'irawen - 11-21-2012
I kind of just wanted to ask and get a general idea of what everyone approves/disapproves of as far as how much is too much, before your character starts getting kind of...snowflakey. Mary-Sue-ish, etc.
I still have this desire to have a character that is musically inclined (Songstress/Bard, etc. Singing for spells. Something similar to X-2's setup, if that's even permitted in the XIV-verse of RPing?).
My thing is...I mean, I'm okay with making a second character who does this. At the same rate, I already have E'iri and I don't want to have too many alts or anything. It occurred to me, it might be fun to make him do it. I don't totally have anything specific going for him yet as far as a 'choice career' or anything. Not to mention it might be kind of interesting to see a male in that role (personally, I haven't seen many. ... Or any.).
But so far, he does have some healing ability, and can commune with elementals. Sooo...would him having something like this be too much? Should I ditch his healing abilities, if I ultimately favor the musical ones? I haven't canonly RPed him yet, and likely won't until 2.0. So doing something like that wouldn't muss with anyone, as far as I know.
Just curious! (;; I am sorry if this is sue-ish at all. I'm kind of nervous to even ask about it.)
Thank you.
Re: Character Development: When is too much? - Sigil.9054 - 11-21-2012
My rule of thumb:
When you stop thinking of your character in terms of balanced strengths and weaknesses, and start thinking them of terms of "So if someone does this, how can my character come out unscathed?", then you've gone too far.
EDIT: I have a current, active RP character (not in FF14), that's gone this route, but they're supposed to be a villain that the heroes are supposed to defeat, so I let it slide a little.
Re: Character Development: When is too much? - Eva - 11-21-2012
My own opinion is that it makes sense for people to have talents across a number of disciplines at varying levels. That feels real to me. People who level all jobs and expect to RP as an expert at all of them kind of put me off a bit, however. Eva kind of falls into the same 'healer' category (she's technically a nurse and the more aetherial aspect of the job sort of came into play later), but she is also an accomplished seamstress and capable of wielding a lance fairly well. That's about the extent of her skills, at least as they are based on the jobs. I've leveled stuff like leathercraft and monk but I don't normally RP those skills in any capacity unless to say she's just dabbling with something (the bit of leathercutting she knows was to support her weaving garments, for instance).
It gets Mary Sue to me when someone is not only accomplished at multiple talents, but "the best". Much as I'm a fan of keeping things parallel with regard to job/class levels and actual RP skill, I get put off when I see Mr. Hero who can wield an axe or punch things while casting flare spells and curing his party the whole time as he weaves baskets with his feet.
Summary: Multiple disciplines is fine, even if there's a lot of them, but consider the amount of time it takes to become decent/good/skilled/expert at something, and how many different things, and also upkeep of those talents - training and such. But a healer who can also sing is not such a stretch of an imagination. To me that would be like a Doctor who goes out on karaoke nights with friends, or such.
Re: Character Development: When is too much? - E'irawen - 11-21-2012
Phew. I feel a bit better now! Thank you, guys. ;;
Re: Character Development: When is too much? - Tadir - 11-24-2012
No reason you can incorporate the singing magic into the healing skills he already has. Or do you mean healing skills as in a medical doctor? In which case, sure, there is nothing wrong with adding a bit of magical melody.
Re: Character Development: When is too much? - Chloe Ardarose - 11-24-2012
Eva Wrote:It gets Mary Sue to me when someone is not only accomplished at multiple talents, but "the best". Much as I'm a fan of keeping things parallel with regard to job/class levels and actual RP skill, I get put off when I see Mr. Hero who can wield an axe or punch things while casting flare spells and curing his party the whole time as he weaves baskets with his feet.
This is a good summary of my own thoughts. Being multi-faceted is fine, but you want to make sure that it's balanced. One approach I've seen that seems to work well is the give/take method. In other words, for everything area you make your character excel in, you make another where they're hopeless, or similar. IE, your character is blessed with the ability to heal through song, but unfortunately he or she also has two left feet and attempting to dance looks more like they're having a seizure than anything artisic. Or perhaps he or she is also accomplished in medicine, but due to so much time spent studying and practicing, social awkwardness abounds.
Re: Character Development: When is too much? - Tadir - 11-24-2012
That's a really good point. Weaknesses make characters interesting and fun to play.
Tadir, for example, is miserable in a fight. His wife, on the other hand, started as his bodyguard. If she's not around he will get his butt handed to him. It makes for much more interesting roleplay when I have to figure out a way to get through a (RP) situation without resorting to violence at all. (Especially when he tends to drink a bit too much while fishing.)
So I agree with that. Working lack of skill and character flaws into your character makes for a much more interesting, fun and believable character.
Re: Character Development: When is too much? - Moltove - 12-20-2012
Thinking about my own character development, I've come to ask the same question for Molt. I have not had the chance to RP anything other than with the Stormguard and the Dalamud event, so I've been wondering about all the past events in Molt's life. It's a bit filled with negative events. Just a smidge...but It's not like I plan to RP them all out and create a big scene from them, and in all honesty, I use them as character defining points rather than agonizing characteristics Molt focuses on day in and day out, especially when ARR comes about (since Molt will treat it as a rebirth, in a way). At any rate, here's a condensed list of bad things >.> ...
Age 5 - Not terrible, but school age. due to the lack of red haired elezen running about, I said Molt was made fun of because of it (damn, gingers!). Other than that, he was quirky-- he grew 5 years in a rural village, then moved to Gridania for academics and such.
~Age 10: After being made fun of so much, he killed a close friend and possibly another. I attributed this to a cursed dagger, which was to be used for modern RP-- basically to find the dagger again and become THF class (hopefully Assassin >.>). Possibly an affliction, including a mental thing, but ultimately dropped that. Not sure on this at all anymore, but there's a reason I needed Molt to get out of Grid so that...
~Age 13 / 1557: Garlean Empire takes Ala Mhigo and dominates the planes Molt lived on...then killed his parents. To be honest, I just wanted a creative way to off them so as not to have to deal with RPing them, and give reason as to why Molt ended up somewhere in the next time point. Also, this is when Molt is blinded in one eye from a backfired Blind spell. Used to give some kind of unique disability, I thought. Remedied by enchanted glasses and (eventually) self-made Eye Drops.
Same Age, less than a week later: Picked up by a traveling 'merchant'. Not exactly fleshed out, but more or less this merchant either sells or trains Molt in hand to hand combat and takes him to Ul'Dah for underground fighting and illegal gambling.
~Age 15: A rival finds out Molt is actually blind. You see, Molt was doing pretty damn good, but always wore glasses. So this rival, a general nobody and jealous hoe, finds a way to penetrate Molt's defenses and break the glasses. (The glasses allow him to see with both eyes, as long as he takes medication, though without them he can only see with one eye even with the medication.) So, having his glasses break, Molt is sort of...freaking out, doesn't realize the rival brought a knife to a fist fight and tries to stab Molt...and gives him a scar on his face. I hope Elezen customizations allow for what I have in mind!
Age 18: Meets girl...still fighting he's so used to it and used to making so much money from it Age 20: Married girl, quits fighting and gets job at the Phrontistery...Age 22: Has child...
Age24: The wife and child are nowhere to be seen. This is what Molt obsessed about and is probably what you may have heard in 1.0. He searches completely for a year, then tries to get back to work...
Age 25: 1.0. Oh, nothing happens here. Molt still wallows about his daughter. Nothing happens...except for...
Still 25: METEOR AND BAHAMUT!!!
Years 1-5: Creates a new life/name for himself as a THF by night, merchant by day, making a profit from the Calamity.
Soo...I have a good feeling on what I can take out, but I just have to ask...is it too much? Especially in ARR, none of these things will be a wailing issue of Molt's. Killing the kid is the only thing I'd be up in arms about, since it's so dark, but since I couldn't get a hold of a Dated Maddening Dagger, and since I'm not going to give Molt a mental issue (as fun as it would be, since I've done it before!), it feels like it almost serves no purpose other than to get Molt's parents where they needed to be to die. If they did not die there, I would have to rework the teenage years to where...I guess they moved to Ul'Dah and he chose Pugilist as a profession, then...Meteor came about and killed his parents, or they took the boat out.
It's all doable, but I'd like some feedback. Most would only read all this OOCly and would probably never know anything about it if they RPd with Molt, unless if they got close enough. Yet I wonder if it's just being too attention whoreish, or drama queen-esque.
Re: Character Development: When is too much? - Moltove - 12-20-2012
I did forget that I realized that age 16 was the Battle of Silvertear Falls, which could be the source of the scar, taking away drama on Molt's side and having it be more or less...just a happening. That is, if I wanted Molt in the military-- though quickly discharged afterwards!
>.< I dunnoo..
Re: Character Development: When is too much? - Merri - 12-20-2012
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Moltove Wrote:Battle of Silvertear Falls, which could be the source of the scar,
I believe lore-wise, the battle over Silvertear was strictly the Garlean airforce against Midgardsormr and his minions. There weren't any Eorzean forces involved, and at that point the three city-states were independent, not officially militarized and simply in a cold war with Garlemald.
Not entirely certain, however, but it's food for thought.
On the subject of the thread, though, weaknesses are key, key, key. A character without any sort of weakness or shortcoming is just, well, silly. Everyone is flawed in some way shape or form, whether they want to acknowledge it or not, and having an all-powerful character will tend to push most people away. Though I like to assume that's something most people understand and go with. Just one of those unspoken deals.
Sometimes it really boils down to just going with what you're comfortable with, even if some people disagree. You can't please everyone, unfortunately, and in most cases people won't make a scene if they don't like your character's concept. They'll simply not RP with you, which is fine. There's a lot of different types of roleplayers out there and not everyone meshes~
For example, my character was originally from Garlemald, and one of his bigger flaws involves an incident as a child that cost him his left arm and gave him a strong distaste for the empire. He managed to meet an engineer who helped fit him with a highly experimental prosthetic arm powered by Magitek, and immersed him into the world of Magitek.
But, living in Eorzea these days means he doesn't necessarily have access to the proper materials for engineering, and though his association with the Garlond Ironworks grants him some access to tools and supplies, a lot of it is homebrew. It breaks down. A lot. Usually at the worst possible time. Fighting with one arm can be rough, even more so if you're a Monk like he is and your style of combat revolves heavily around being able to use both.
Some people don't agree with the idea of magitek prosthetics (even though an NPC mentions Garleans fusing themselves with their machina here~ /cough), but it's an example of one of those things where you can't please everyone. However, you can co-exist with those people most of the time if you just keep it to yourself. In my case, Endemerrin keeps his disability a well kept secret most of the time, and has various means of keeping the arm covered. No one would be any wiser since it acts just as any normal arm would. ...Most of the time.
Character flaws don't always have to be physical, of course. I think the greatest part about roleplaying is your freedom to actually be creative. Thinking up something unique, and having the proper flaws to balance it is all a part of the fun. Crazy things are fine. Hell, some of the most interesting characters in my opinion have the most absurd flaws. It makes roleplaying with them a unique experience.
It's when you get into the realm of your character being a former Imperial Legatus, or a half-demon half-werewolf princess fairy from Ishgard that people start to turn their heads.
Re: Character Development: When is too much? - Vareal - 12-21-2012
Merri Wrote:It's when you get into the realm of your character being a former Imperial Legatus, or a half-demon half-werewolf princess fairy from Ishgard that people start to turn their heads.
Aww, darn it! Guess Kali can't be a super half behemoth fairy half dodo bird... lol j/k
But on the topic, I want to get an opinion on my secondary character Kali, who follow's Isaac around for as of yet unknown reasons IC, is from the Empire and served in the army as part of a sort of special ops unit. She was, key word was, a very powerful thaumaturge and was known by the nick name Eternal Darkness. Now before anyone slides of their rocker, I've completely revamped Eternal. She's now Hyur and her name is Kali. Eternal Darkness is just a nick name. Anyway...
I'm still unsure about her and I don't want to have to get rid of another character.
The main aspect behind her story is that when she was inducted into this special ops unit, a bug made of magic was secretly implanted into her brain, this was done to all the members of this group, and should she go AWOL or do something that was displeasing to the one's in charge, the bug would detonate. This bug would then proceed to destroy that persons mind, causing them to go mad and eventually kill them.
After saving Isaac, Kali's bug detonates. She goes through varying stages of madness until Isaac eventually rescues her. She forgot some of her past and lost all of her abilities as a thaumaturge, save for the basics. And as a result, she constantly hallucinates and some of her hallucinations can render her unable to think for moments at a time, though those are rare. She's more distracted by it than anything else which causes her to loose focus. Isaac is trying to help her over come this weakness.
That isn't too out of line, is it? I mean, at least she's not a super fairy behemoth dodo.
Re: Character Development: When is too much? - Yssen - 12-21-2012
Interesting question. I want to start by saying you are free to create whatever you like. Some people will like it, others will look at you like you are crazy. That is a simple fact of life. You should create whatever it is that you enjoy, and enjoy it. There is the caveat of "within limits" that others have mentioned here already. Where is the limit? It is different for each individual. Where is the collective limit for a large group or community? Lord only knows where it is exactly, but it is there. Taking a peek at lore is the best way to have a rough idea of the limits, so let us examine what we do know.
Being involved in the Imperial Military is a losing proposition for the disloyal. It is mentioned in several places that Imperial Military are brainwashed, mind controlled, and otherwise conditioned to be loyal to the Empire. This is also seen to be more than just normal indoctrination, it is supernatural in nature. They condition several Ala Mihgan children in seconds to be completely loyal to the Empire (watch the last CS of the old main scenario). The kids look at a bright light for a bit, and then they are not them anymore. They accept the Imperial religion, and march off merrily to be trained to kill in the name of the Empire. In fact, on of the most tragic parts about conflict with the Empire (at least until Van Darnus shows up) is that we are more than likely not fighting true Imperials, but magically brainwashed Ala Mihgans. Hell, they may have even known us, been good friends with us, or even closer than that. They don't care, they still try to kill us. One of the prime examples of the effectiveness of Imperial conditioning is seen after Van Darnus is killed. His men hide the fact that he is dead, and continue to follow what they believe would have been his orders. Some of them even go so far as to pose as Van Darnus. All of it out of fanatical loyalty to the Empire and their commanding officer. Jeebus rice, that is crazy. The only cannon example we have of an Imperial traitor is Cid, and Cid was not military. Cid was the son of a Legatus (if my memory serves me right), a brilliant Magitek Researcher, but he was not a member of the Imperial Military. Thus, he probably was never conditioned and maintained his free will. That is probably what allowed him to betray the Empire and form the Ironworks.
Swinging back around to your story and your question. Given that Imperial rank and file are conditioned to be fanatical drones, you have to consider what further measures they would use to have failsafes in place for their "special forces." We get right into a realm of things we probably don't want to contemplate being done to an individual's mind and body. Still, the first thing to consider is story. What does the scenario add to the collective narrative? In short, what is the point? You have to answer that for yourself as a writer/creator. I would put forward some questions? Mind you, I am not putting these forward to blow holes in your concept, just throwing something out there for you to consider and use to refine it. You have asked for feedback, not judgement. So that is what I am giving you. Feedback, not judgement.
The first question that comes to mind is; why would an organization ruthless enough to mystically brainwash children into fighting theirparents and loved ones, simply put a bug that drives you mad in the brain of one of their elite agents? Why not just something that triggers, detonates, or otherwise kills them in an instant? Ruthless efficiency is still efficient.
Second, is your purpose and concept served by applying your ideas to an organization other than the Empire? There is precious little lore out there about the internal workings of the Imperial Military. Applying your ideas to a different organization (or even one you create yourself) will probably restrict you less farther down the road and allow you to be more creative.
Third, what about this concept will make it unique from other ex-imperial concepts? In my time, I have heard of (and seen) a lot of them. When there are a bunch of similar snowflakes running around, they tend to lose their dramatic impact. This can be a vast disservice to any creator's work, as it is instantly compared (fairly or unfairly) to all the other similar snowflakes running around. An even better route to proceed with (if you decide you want to keep the ex-imperial stuff) would be to contact or find the other people playing ex-imperials and coordinate. It is a small sub-group of the world's population, you probably shouldn't all be living in a vacuum where you haven't heard of one another. This has the side effect of giving you a built in base to RP with, which is generally considered to be awesome.
Just some food for thought. Mull it over, refine, and create as you see fit. I look forward to RPing with you in the future.
- Yssen
Re: Character Development: When is too much? - Blade - 12-21-2012
Sorta going along with Yssen's third point about Imperials...
I'm sure there are a lot of roleplayers who come up with great ideas to support a character being an Imperial turncoat, or at least, from Garlemald come to Eorzea. However, like Yssen said, there's only so many times this idea can be used before it starts to lose its novelty value. Brainwashing issues aside, I feel an ex-Imperial character sorta actively aims to hit shock value... and other roleplayers who may know other ex-Imperials by this point, may not be so shocked.
But there are a lot of other organizations in Eorzea, that are not so well known, that have lots of lore ready to be explored. Organizations rarely looked to for RP ideas. Something like that I think would really add extra spark to the character, but that's just my opinion.
Re: Character Development: When is too much? - Kylin - 12-21-2012
Blade Wrote:But there are a lot of other organizations in Eorzea, that are not so well known, that have lots of lore ready to be explored. Organizations rarely looked to for RP ideas. Something like that I think would really add extra spark to the character, but that's just my opinion.
When are we going to have a RPer who's actually a member of the Lambs of Dalamud?! They're supposed to be returning in ARR after all
So hard to find a cultist to RP with, I swear. I want one to woo me before they try to offer me as a blood sacrifice so my real hero can save me and sweep me off my feet. Make my RP fantasy happen already!!
Re: Character Development: When is too much? - Vareal - 12-21-2012
Kylin Wrote:When are we going to have a RPer who's actually a member of the Lambs of Dalamud?! They're supposed to be returning in ARR after all
So hard to find a cultist to RP with, I swear. I want one to woo me before they try to offer me as a blood sacrifice so my real hero can save me and sweep me off my feet. Make my RP fantasy happen already!!
Look no further than my third character, Melfina "Night Mage" Windsor. I haven't unveiled her completely yet, as I'm still not 100% sure of the Lambs of Dalamud's lore, but she is definitely a member. If you read Isaac's bio on the wiki, or look at my latest post in Under Blue Skies, Melfina is responsible for the dark magic that caused the scar on Isaac's arm and I haven't finished writing his biography yet, but it's unsure if Melfina killed Isaac's sister Ailith.
Yssen:
Thank you for all that feedback, I appreciate it and don't take it as judgement. I had no idea that the Empire brainwashed their military subjects. And you're right about the bug, it would be better if it killed fairly quickly, if not instantly. As for Kali, I was thinking more along the lines that she was born in the empire and volunteered to be in the military so maybe volunteer's get special treatment when joining, but again I suppose that there's still so little known about the empire in that respect that I can't create a solid story to back her up. She's not integral to Isaac's main background or story, so she's still up for development. I will mull all this over and make changes accordingly. Again I appreciate your feed back.
I have another question; Isaac and Ailith were born in Ala Mihgo, they were both 6 years old when the Empire attacked. They managed to escape with the help of Melfina. Is that something that's plausible, or am I again missing something?