+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: Lore Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=49)
+--- Thread: Thaumaturgy and the Order of Nald'Thal (Lore Questions) (/showthread.php?tid=15279)
Thaumaturgy and the Order of Nald'Thal (Lore Questions) - McBeefâ„¢ - 02-16-2016
Hello Peeps!
I'm working on a new character, and am wondering if people can help me answer/clarify some points.
1) Despite the 2.0 skillset, thaumaturges have access to all the elements as well as healing?
2) Is order of Nald Thal is different from the thaumaturge's guild?
3) The order of Nald Thal is described as the 'LawMaker' of ul'dah. Does that also mean they are its judges? Does anyone know how those laws are determined? Are there votes? Does the syndicate have a say?
4) How does one become a member of the order, if it is different from the guild of thaumaturges? So far I have only seen lalafells as members of the order, is there any evidence of other races?
5) Their leader Dewlala is on the syndicate, but how much power do they have?
Any feedback would be appreciated!
RE: Thaumaturgy and the Order of Nald'Thal (Lore Questions) - Unnamed Mercenary - 02-16-2016
(02-16-2016, 03:20 PM)McBeef© Wrote: 1) Despite the 2.0 skillset, thaumaturges have access to all the elements as well as healing?
Before the changes in patch 1.20 (classes adjustments and jobs being added), Thaumaturges did not have access to the elements at all. (That was Conjurer stuff). They were more similar to an Arcanist, as more of their spells dealt with status effects and Astral/Umbral magic. You can see the old skills here.
http://www.final-fantasy-14.org/abilities/main
1.0 THM skills on youtube
(02-16-2016, 03:20 PM)McBeef© Wrote: 2) Is order of Nald Thal is different from the thaumaturge's guild?
The Order of Nald'Thal is a religious sect. The Thaumaturges' Guild is a part of it.
(02-16-2016, 03:20 PM)McBeef© Wrote: 3) The order of Nald Thal is described as the 'LawMaker' of ul'dah. Does that also mean they are its judges? Does anyone know how those laws are determined? Are there votes? Does the syndicate have a say?
I don't think Square Enix has given us much to work with here. We're told that the Order of Nald'Thal makes the Laws, but they're clearly not making up the Law Enforcement, like the Brass Blades, Sultansworn or Immortal Flames.
(02-16-2016, 03:20 PM)McBeef© Wrote: 4) How does one become a member of the order, if it is different from the guild of thaumaturges? So far I have only seen lalafells as members of the order, is there any evidence of other races?
The main character, if they choose to join, is a member of the guild. I don't think they're considered a ranked member of the Order, but may be considered a follower. Religion vs Politics vs Skills.
(02-16-2016, 03:20 PM)McBeef© Wrote: 5) Their leader Dewlala is on the syndicate, but how much power do they have?
We can assume Dewlala has as much say as other members of the Syndicate, which is to say, a lot. With a smaller number of people on the Syndicate, her influence has likely risen.
THM Lore Compilation by Sounsyy
- Aether and the Mechanics of the Magi
- Foci of the Magi
- Understanding Thaumaturgy
- Aether, Ceruleum, and Thaumaturgy
- Ossuary vs Sacrarium
- Necromancy and Thaumaturgy
- Black Magic and the Void Misconception
I would read up on Understanding Thaumaturgy, Ossuary vs Sacrarium and Necromancy and Thaumaturgy in particular.
RE: Thaumaturgy and the Order of Nald'Thal (Lore Questions) - McBeefâ„¢ - 02-16-2016
(02-16-2016, 03:41 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: -Snip-
Thank you for the info!
In regards to question 1, It looks like the THM could heal and do some elemental things, but they came from a different place (and are mostly dots/debuffs). 2.0 thaumaturges seem more like 1/2 of a CNJ.
Were 1.0 Thaum abilities retconned in the lore? Or are thaumaturges still supposed to do things like heal and buff allies? Even though the skill suggest otherwise.
RE: Thaumaturgy and the Order of Nald'Thal (Lore Questions) - Warren Castille - 02-16-2016
(02-16-2016, 04:12 PM)McBeef© Wrote:(02-16-2016, 03:41 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: -Snip-
Thank you for the info!
In regards to question 1, It looks like the THM could heal and do some elemental things, but they came from a different place (and are mostly dots/debuffs). 2.0 thaumaturges seem more like 1/2 of a CNJ.
Were 1.0 Thaum abilities retconned in the lore? Or are thaumaturges still supposed to do things like heal and buff allies? Even though the skill suggest otherwise.
If I'm remembering correctly, the "old" way of doing Thaumaturgy applies (you fight the old guild leader in Halatali HM's final fight!) but the lala siblings in charge now teach a fundamentally different means of harnessing aether.
If you were training as a Thaumaturge prior to the switch, you'd have a grasp of the old stuff. If you're new, you get the elemental stuff. It's a rough and sloppy way of looking at it, but it's the best correlation I've got.
RE: Thaumaturgy and the Order of Nald'Thal (Lore Questions) - McBeefâ„¢ - 02-16-2016
(02-16-2016, 04:20 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:Ok that sounds reasonable. I only vaguely remember the start of the Thaumaturgy stuff. How is the new way different? Is it no longer drawn from one's internal aether?(02-16-2016, 04:12 PM)McBeef© Wrote:(02-16-2016, 03:41 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: -Snip-
Thank you for the info!
In regards to question 1, It looks like the THM could heal and do some elemental things, but they came from a different place (and are mostly dots/debuffs). 2.0 thaumaturges seem more like 1/2 of a CNJ.
Were 1.0 Thaum abilities retconned in the lore? Or are thaumaturges still supposed to do things like heal and buff allies? Even though the skill suggest otherwise.
If I'm remembering correctly, the "old" way of doing Thaumaturgy applies (you fight the old guild leader in Halatali HM's final fight!) but the lala siblings in charge now teach a fundamentally different means of harnessing aether.
If you were training as a Thaumaturge prior to the switch, you'd have a grasp of the old stuff. If you're new, you get the elemental stuff. It's a rough and sloppy way of looking at it, but it's the best correlation I've got.
On a side note I'm rewatching the old 1.0 cutscenes for for research, and the world felt a lot more... deep. 2.0 saved the game but some of the nuance was definitely lost.
RE: Thaumaturgy and the Order of Nald'Thal (Lore Questions) - Warren Castille - 02-16-2016
(02-16-2016, 04:28 PM)McBeef© Wrote: Ok that sounds reasonable. I only vaguely remember the start of the Thaumaturgy stuff. How is the new way different? Is it no longer drawn from one's internal aether?
On a side note I'm rewatching the old 1.0 cutscenes for for research, and the world felt a lot more... deep. 2.0 saved the game but some of the nuance was definitely lost.
Disclaimer: I don't know if I'm actually remembering this or just making it up, so a shaker of salt should go with this.
The new way's different only in the sense that you're making different things with your aether. 1.0 was a lot of Astral/Umbral effects, DoTs and curses and buffering and stuff. You were still using your own aether to fuel it, but you were making it do different things. The "new" methods teach you to channel your aether into more mundaney elements instead of the more nebulous "light" and "dark" stuff.
RE: Thaumaturgy and the Order of Nald'Thal (Lore Questions) - Unnamed Mercenary - 02-16-2016
To add, the lore wasn't retconned, the battle system was simply adjusted.
The same reason CNJ no longer can cast fire, Ice and Lightning magic. (Or Flare). It's not that Conjurers lost the ability to do so, it's just that those abilities were given to THM to make the classes fall in line with the more iconic jobs.
I can't speak for how it played, as I joined 1.0 around the 1.20 patches. Dalamud was already in the sky and a lot of Yoshi-P changes had taken place. (He was trying pretty hard to save the game).
RE: Thaumaturgy and the Order of Nald'Thal (Lore Questions) - McBeefâ„¢ - 02-16-2016
(02-16-2016, 04:36 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:(02-16-2016, 04:28 PM)McBeef© Wrote: Ok that sounds reasonable. I only vaguely remember the start of the Thaumaturgy stuff. How is the new way different? Is it no longer drawn from one's internal aether?
On a side note I'm rewatching the old 1.0 cutscenes for for research, and the world felt a lot more... deep. 2.0 saved the game but some of the nuance was definitely lost.
Disclaimer: I don't know if I'm actually remembering this or just making it up, so a shaker of salt should go with this.
The new way's different only in the sense that you're making different things with your aether. 1.0 was a lot of Astral/Umbral effects, DoTs and curses and buffering and stuff. You were still using your own aether to fuel it, but you were making it do different things. The "new" methods teach you to channel your aether into more mundaney elements instead of the more nebulous "light" and "dark" stuff.
Understood, so those who joined pre-calamity, or who are more involved with the Sacrinarium would likely be similar to 1.0 Thaums. After all someone still has to bury all those dead and do all the boring Thaum stuff. It's not all Flares and Blizzards..
RE: Thaumaturgy and the Order of Nald'Thal (Lore Questions) - Unnamed Mercenary - 02-16-2016
Something like that. They do certainly still handle burials and all of that.
In my own personal headcanon, I'd assume well-trained members whether before or after the Calamity would have been trained in the older arts, but the public-facing ones are the elemental stuff. Don't forget that there was a ceremonial jeweled dagger used for spellcasting once! (Instead of say, a wand or scepter). The method of channeling aether hasn't changed, just, like how Warren said, what it's being channeled to.
RE: Thaumaturgy and the Order of Nald'Thal (Lore Questions) - Valence - 02-16-2016
There doesn't seem to be a lot of difference in the lore between both in terms of what they can do, the difference is just how they access the aether, their doctrines, traditions, etc..
RE: Thaumaturgy and the Order of Nald'Thal (Lore Questions) - Warren Castille - 02-16-2016
(02-16-2016, 07:27 PM)Valence Wrote: There doesn't seem to be a lot of difference in the lore between both in terms of what they can do, the difference is just how they access the aether, their doctrines, traditions, etc..
That's arguable, though. 1.0 THM did a lot of effects that held over from FFXI: Lowered parameters, potent DoTs, magical spike shields, that sort of stuff. It's still persona aether manipulation, but...
Aether is like legos. Lots of different ways to assemble them, but it's all the same bricks.
RE: Thaumaturgy and the Order of Nald'Thal (Lore Questions) - Sounsyy - 02-17-2016
I'm pretty late to the party, so I'm going to quickly go through and drop some lore on each of these.
(02-16-2016, 03:20 PM)McBeef© Wrote: 1) Despite the 2.0 skillset, thaumaturges have access to all the elements as well as healing?
Thaumaturges did not technically have access to elemental magic, at least not in the form we see today. They did not control any of the six common elements. What they did control was the manipulation of the Astral and Umbral polarities which bind the six elements. Anonymoose had a really really great explanation of this but I can't find it so I'll try my best to summarize.
![[Image: 3064eafd2d46c071d8acf418ca741a06.png]](http://zam.zamimg.com/images/3/0/3064eafd2d46c071d8acf418ca741a06.png)
Above is the Elemental wheel, which is still canon as of Heavensward (it appears in Gubal). Essentially, the six elements are affected by both Astral and Umbral polarities and aspects. 1.0 Thaumaturges were able to shift between Astral and Umbral aspects, similar to today, invoking different forms of magic and spells depending on their shift. The essential difference though, was that they did not follow up this Astral and Umbral shifting with elemental magic, but rather Astral and Umbral magic. For instance, after afflicting an enemy with Astral polarity, magical attacks such as Dia and Banish would deal greater damage and status effects, conversely, Bio and Scourge were Umbrally polarized. There were also a slew of status effects ranging from Absorb-Accuracy to Paralyze, Silence, and Bind.
Lore-wise, none of this was officially retconned, but a change forced on them by the battle team:
Fernehalwes Wrote:It was a huge challenge. This is one of the times we just blew it up and weren’t able to put it all back together. It doesn’t happen a lot, but every now and then you just have to say, “Okay, we can’t explain this, and if we tried it would sound forced.†It comes down to the system, and you don’t explain them, and you hope people don’t notice, and then people notice, and they have this podcast, and I have to say…
Now, as others have said earlier, a great way to play this change in an IC fashion is to have it so if your character was a member of the Order of Nald'thal during Mumuepo's leadership back in 1.0, you'd likely be familiar with this form of Thaumaturgy. If you're a newer member, you'd likely be more accustomed to the "new" method taught by the Coco brothers.
And as a side note, yes, Thaumaturges could heal and resurrect (even resurrect the dead lore-wise) in 1.0 using a spell called Sacrifice, which expended their HP and MP to heal themselves and others over time. Most games call this blood magic, which is quite apt for Thaumaturgy, considering this theory on ancient blood glyphs.
__________________________
(02-16-2016, 03:20 PM)McBeef© Wrote: 2) Is order of Nald Thal is different from the thaumaturge's guild?
The guild is one of two parts of the Order of Nald'thal. Like everything in Ul'dah, it expresses the duality of the Traders, life and death. This is the Order's study, and as such has a place of worship and study devoted to each, Milvaneth Sacrarium and Arrzaneth Ossuary. The Thaumaturges guild represents the Arrzaneth Ossuary's study of death, while the Milvaneth Sacrarium focuses more on the betterment of one's life.
Yayaroku Wrote:Nald'thal, also known as the Traders, is the arbiter of the afterlife and commerce. He is the single manifestation of the twins Nald and Thal. Each oversees a separate but significant aspect of existence. Nald oversees the financial fortunes of the living, whereas Thal weighs the worth of the departed. Our order is devoted to the worship of the Traders. Here we share our wisdom with the faithful and teach them means to attain virtue in this life so they may find peace in the next.
Like the Traders, the Order of Nald'thal is possessed of two aspects. Milvaneth Sacrarium is the temple of Nald, and Arrzaneth Ossuary is the temple of Thal. Here at the Ossuary, we receive those who seek to secure their place at Thal's side. The virtuous are interred in Erralig's Burial Chamber, to ensure their safe passage into the realm of the dead. Men measure virtue in many ways, but Thal's scales weigh wealth most favorably. If you worry that you are yet wanting, you may make a donation at any time.
__________________________
(02-16-2016, 03:20 PM)McBeef© Wrote: 3) The order of Nald Thal is described as the 'LawMaker' of ul'dah. Does that also mean they are its judges? Does anyone know how those laws are determined? Are there votes? Does the syndicate have a say?
Lettice Wrote:It is the thaumaturges of the Order of Nald'thal who write Ul'dah's laws. You had best not breach them, or you may see the "other side" they preach of sooner than you wish. Guard your tongue at all times, lest you mean to be chased out of the city as the sylphs once were. And be especially wary when speaking of the Garleans or the beast tribes. These are both sensitive subjects to the thaumaturges. It may not be too much to say that getting on with the thaumaturges is the secret to success here in Ul'dah, such is their influence. You'd do well to remember that.
As for passing judgement, in most cases that seems to be under the purview of the Syndicate and Sultan(a). We've several examples in lore that the Sultan(a) can actually use their birthright as power to trump the Order's laws in dire circumstances. We see this happen when 1) the Sultana elects to provide succor to the Ala Mhigan refugees against Order law and Syndicate ruling, 2) when banishing and imprisoning the former High Priest of the Order, Mumuepo and personally appointing its new heads, and 3) attempting to permanently dissolve the Syndicate and abdicate the throne.
We do have an example of the Order of Nald'thal giving themselves the legal power to enact judgement for crimes: Execution of Vengeance Orders. Wherein, if the last will of a deceased patron of the Order wishes vengeance upon one who caused their demise, the Order will fulfill it.
I'llofii Wrote:Vengeance will be had for those whose breath is taken from them. You must spill its lifeblood─as only life can pay for life. Now that the deed is done, surely this merchant's soul will find peace in Thal's realm, for you have taken its burden of hatred upon yourself. Your own sins have grown in the doing, but so has your virtue with them.
I should tell you, vengeance orders cannot be placed against one of our own. Now that you have taken up the thaumaturge's path, you need not fear being marked for death by the Order.
__________________________
(02-16-2016, 03:20 PM)McBeef© Wrote: 4) How does one become a member of the order, if it is different from the guild of thaumaturges? So far I have only seen lalafells as members of the order, is there any evidence of other races?
Yayake Wrote:Only by embracing death can one honor life. Greetings, wanderer, and welcome to Arrzaneth Ossuary. What brings you to us? Do you wish to gain mastery over this realm of Nald, and thence cast your gaze across to the realm of Thal? Do you wish to know the limits of this mortal coil? Then enter your name here in the Traders' ledger. Swear your flesh and blood to our Order─and your soul to our cause. It is done. I hereby proclaim you, Sounsyy Mirke, daughter of Arrzaneth Ossuary, servant and disciple of the Order of Nald'thal. Fear not, for no more are you lost. As one of us, you will not want for guidance in this plane.
You must first know our ways. And to do that, you must read our scripture. I sense... reluctance in you. Falter not in your resolve, as many lesser adventurers have. To read is to grow!
Yayake Wrote:Before departing, you will need to acquaint yourself with the wisdom found in these tomes. The prospect of scholarly study has been known to deter lesser adventurers, but I am quite sure it holds no fears for you. Of course, if you were to develop a sudden aversion to the written word, I would suggest learning what you could from your fellow thaumaturges.
I'llofii Wrote:Do you honestly believe you have the makings of a true thaumaturge? Your veins must course with feverish hot blood that burns a deep crimson. You must experience many a death to become master over it. Whether or not you return from your journeys to the other realm is decided by the potency and vigor of your lifeblood. Many and more far greater than you have had their blood stained black as pitch by the trials they have undergone within these halls. This is what it means to be a thaumaturge. To suffer great burdens that would crush ordinary men, and toil on. I ask again, do you truly have what it takes to become one of us? And if so, is that truly what you desire? Forgive me, I do not mean to deter you or give you cause to falter. I mean only to harden your resolve. Come, let us begin your training.
This document is a last will and testament. It belonged to a man of the Merchants Ward who, by the age of one and fifty, had established himself as a reputable trader. Yet the gods have their plans, and his life was taken one day by a raging beast. Though many outside these walls would deem this fate tragic, the clouds of grief are not long upon us here, for we know that his soul's true journey has just begun. As he was a loyal devotee of the Ossuary, it is our charge to execute his last will and testament. This is to be your training, Sounsyy.
“My last will and testament... I hereby leave one third of my total estate to the Order of Nald'thal of the Arrzaneth Ossuary. In return for this consideration, I humbly request that my death be avenged should my days be cut short by unnatural causes.†Vengeance will be had for those whose breath is taken from them.
One of the Order of Nald'thal's prelates, as you can see, named I'llofii is a Seeker of the Sun Miqo'te. It is possible for other races to rise to higher rankings within the Order, however, the vast majority are Lalafell because until comparatively recently, Ul'dah was an entirely Lalafellin city-state.
Neymumu Wrote:Most don't know it, but Ul'dah was once ours - the Lalafells'. Till the promise of gil brought in all the others, that is. Now I can't talk to half these leeches without looking up. Ruined my bloody neck, it has. This city is our by rights. There ought to be a tax, if you ask me. Aye, all non-Lalafells should pay for the privilege of living here─or at least for being so godsdamned tall!
__________________________
(02-16-2016, 03:20 PM)McBeef© Wrote: 5) Their leader Dewlala is on the syndicate, but how much power do they have?
Considerable power, actually, especially given that Dewlala has a seat on the Syndicate.
Lettice Wrote:It may not be too much to say that getting on with the thaumaturges is the secret to success here in Ul'dah, such is their influence. You'd do well to remember that.
I think its also appropriate to bring up Dewlala's involvement, or at least awarenss of, Lolorito's plans to save the sultana and dispose of Teledji Adeledji. In the Heavensward quest, Dewlala has the power to pardon Raubahn's crime of high treason against the Syndicate, so clearly she holds some considerable power. Though Dewlala's quotes don't seem to imply that she sways either in favor of the Monetarist or Royalist parties, which might imply that she's a fair-minded lawmaker who will not overly favor Syndicate desires.
Dewlala Wrote:If we are to see stability restored to Ul'dah, we must needs set aside our differences. No more can there be Monetarists or Royalists.
Hope this helps! ^^ Lemme know if you have more questions!
RE: Thaumaturgy and the Order of Nald'Thal (Lore Questions) - Valence - 02-17-2016
I quite like what they did in 1.0 with thaumaturges...
Well since aether as said above is just interchangeable bricks I guess that it can be indeed explained that before the coco brothers, the doctrine and teachings were focusing on Umbral/Astal magic and then, they changed it to elementally aspected elements of destruction (fire, thunder, etc). The same way conjurers focus on the other elements.
I find that interesting because it allows us as RPers to use other kinds of magic like Umbral and Astral magic since they are totally legit in lore. It allows for a certain flexibility/granularity. Do what you will with legos and all.