(08-31-2016, 11:50 AM)Gegenji Wrote: I suppose you could argue that such a comparison is skewed because - as mentioned - it's involving a much more dire issue (AIDs vs. personal housing) that affects real currency (Cash-dollars vs. gil) that could be used for more, real life tangible things needed (Food, rent, utilities). Meanwhile, housing in-game was designed as a gil sink, and that gil likely isn't going to be going much elsewhere other than other non-critical items (i.e., the true endgame of glamour fashion).

So, while there may be a similarity, the differences are equally outstanding. And comparing virtual housing to AIDs medication does nothing more than add unneeded shock value to the situation. And polarizes conversation.

(08-31-2016, 11:37 AM)Yssen Wrote:

(08-30-2016, 11:34 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:

(08-30-2016, 08:55 AM)Yssen Wrote: It is incorrect to say that no one at SE is batting an eye when they called for people to report house flipping and selling plots for profit in a live letter. Clear as day in a live letter. SE is not to blame for you not doing as they asked when someone violates the terms of service. Further, the fact that a similar behavior is allowed on the market board, does not mean that house flipping is in anyway justified when they have said "We don't like this, don't do it." It is specious reasoning to say that they don't care at all when they have bothered to clarify the point in a live letter, and given a method of action that you as a player can take to help them solve it. One can come up with as many reasons as they like as for why a behavior against the ToS might be justified in their eyes, at no point does this truly justify anything. It also doesn't change the fact that a behavior is against the ToS. 

One's personal experiences with a GM do not encompass the entire experience of everyone who has reported anyone for any reason. I'm sorry you have had a negative experience with a harassment claim, but that does not justify people breaking the ToS at any point. Houses are moving still, sure. People still buy gil with real money and bully people with parsers, too. People speed all the time on the road irl, but saying "everyone else was doing it" is not a defense that holds up in court, ever. Someone getting away with something is not an indication that SE doesn't care. It is just an indication they haven't been caught yet. If they are not being caught because you refuse to report the people doing it for reason x, then you have given them tacit approval. In doing so, it can be argued that you become part of the problem. 

Snatching up a house to inflate the price to make a large level of profit when relinquishing the plot is about the same sort of act as when that douche bag bought the rights to an AIDS treatment medication and jacked the price up. Yes, you can argue that it is simple supply and demand, and that it is all SE's fault for a flawed housing system. This does not make the action right. Particularly when the people who created and own the game say it is wrong. Flawed systems do not absolve an individual from making bad moral or ethical decisions.

Dude, are you kidding me? How is flipping a pretend video game house for pretend internet money even remotely close to someone jacking up the price of AIDS medication???

In that it is that one is using the exact same thinking to justify and proceed with the action. One takes advantage of a flawed system to the detriment of others in a community. While knowing (i hope) that what they are doing is wrong, but proceeding anyway because profit. This would be why there was the qualifier of "about the same."

But if you have an argument for how snatching up a house soley for the purpose of exploiting other player's want of housing for a massively inflated profit isn't using the same sort of douchebag logic as the above example, i'm open to hearing your argument. Yar.

(08-31-2016, 12:20 PM)Valence Wrote:

(08-30-2016, 11:16 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote: snip

Maybe the 6M dude got enough evidence gathered against him and not the 200mil dude? Maybe depending on the GM in charge and their mood, the answer can vary a lot? Maybe the high rolling house sellers are you know, actually good at hiding their thing when the smaller ones probably don't even know what they are doing?

Lots of things can happen, and the problem is, you are talking mostly without knowing half of the actual details and pulling vague examples that only you can talk about here.

(08-30-2016, 11:16 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote: I actually do personally know three people who flipped houses frequently to make 300mil+

That's exactly what I was telling above. You know three people. Out of... lots. Maybe you haven't heard about high rollers being banned. Maybe some still get banned. Who's to say that you can't miss anything?

See, the thing is, after a few years in the industry, I see so many people claming various things on game forums like, they think that feature X or Y is shit, or that facts are A and not B, and that everyone thinks to agree, so why is the company not doing anything against it, etc etc?

They think they know about everything, have all the data, when in fact they just kept paying attention only to their own echo bubble and circle of friends or personal network to the point where they naturally think that this is representative of the whole situation.

And then you take a look at the actual stats that the playerbase has no access to, with actual numbers to back it up, and see that those people are actually a minority, or talk about very vocal but very minor parts of the community.

(08-31-2016, 06:02 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:

(08-31-2016, 11:37 AM)Yssen Wrote:

(08-30-2016, 11:34 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:

(08-30-2016, 08:55 AM)Yssen Wrote: It is incorrect to say that no one at SE is batting an eye when they called for people to report house flipping and selling plots for profit in a live letter. Clear as day in a live letter. SE is not to blame for you not doing as they asked when someone violates the terms of service. Further, the fact that a similar behavior is allowed on the market board, does not mean that house flipping is in anyway justified when they have said "We don't like this, don't do it." It is specious reasoning to say that they don't care at all when they have bothered to clarify the point in a live letter, and given a method of action that you as a player can take to help them solve it. One can come up with as many reasons as they like as for why a behavior against the ToS might be justified in their eyes, at no point does this truly justify anything. It also doesn't change the fact that a behavior is against the ToS. 

One's personal experiences with a GM do not encompass the entire experience of everyone who has reported anyone for any reason. I'm sorry you have had a negative experience with a harassment claim, but that does not justify people breaking the ToS at any point. Houses are moving still, sure. People still buy gil with real money and bully people with parsers, too. People speed all the time on the road irl, but saying "everyone else was doing it" is not a defense that holds up in court, ever. Someone getting away with something is not an indication that SE doesn't care. It is just an indication they haven't been caught yet. If they are not being caught because you refuse to report the people doing it for reason x, then you have given them tacit approval. In doing so, it can be argued that you become part of the problem. 

Snatching up a house to inflate the price to make a large level of profit when relinquishing the plot is about the same sort of act as when that douche bag bought the rights to an AIDS treatment medication and jacked the price up. Yes, you can argue that it is simple supply and demand, and that it is all SE's fault for a flawed housing system. This does not make the action right. Particularly when the people who created and own the game say it is wrong. Flawed systems do not absolve an individual from making bad moral or ethical decisions.

Dude, are you kidding me? How is flipping a pretend video game house for pretend internet money even remotely close to someone jacking up the price of AIDS medication???

In that it is that one is using the exact same thinking to justify and proceed with the action. One takes advantage of a flawed system to the detriment of others in a community. While knowing (i hope) that what they are doing is wrong, but proceeding anyway because profit. This would be why there was the qualifier of "about the same."

But if you have an argument for how snatching up a house soley for the purpose of exploiting other player's want of housing for a massively inflated profit isn't using the same sort of douchebag logic as the above example, i'm open to hearing your argument. Yar.

That medicine is needed for someone's survival. You're not going to catch an infection and die because you didn't get a plot of land in Final Fantasy. Flipping pretend video game houses is not a matter of life and death. They only make that gil because people are willing to pay it, people who don't necessarily need a house, but want one anyway. The buyers could all band together and say nah, I'm not paying that. People who need their meds or their epipens or whatever else somebody is jacking up the price of these days don't always have that option. It's nowhere even close to "about the same".

(08-31-2016, 06:42 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: so you're privy to all that shit and you never reported?

HMMMMMMMMMMMM

(08-31-2016, 06:45 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote:

(08-31-2016, 06:42 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: so you're privy to all that shit and you never reported?

HMMMMMMMMMMMM

Why would I report an RPer/FC who has bought themselves a house they enjoy? So they no longer have a house and no longer have any gil?

(08-31-2016, 06:45 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote: Why would I report an RPer/FC who has bought themselves a house they enjoy? So they no longer have a house and no longer have any gil?

(08-31-2016, 06:42 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: so you're privy to all that shit and you never reported?

HMMMMMMMMMMMM

(08-31-2016, 06:55 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:

(08-31-2016, 06:45 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote: Why would I report an RPer/FC who has bought themselves a house they enjoy? So they no longer have a house and no longer have any gil?

and then you wonder why they get away with it.

(08-31-2016, 06:41 PM)Yssen Wrote:

(08-31-2016, 06:02 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:

(08-31-2016, 11:37 AM)Yssen Wrote:

(08-30-2016, 11:34 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:

(08-30-2016, 08:55 AM)Yssen Wrote: It is incorrect to say that no one at SE is batting an eye when they called for people to report house flipping and selling plots for profit in a live letter. Clear as day in a live letter. SE is not to blame for you not doing as they asked when someone violates the terms of service. Further, the fact that a similar behavior is allowed on the market board, does not mean that house flipping is in anyway justified when they have said "We don't like this, don't do it." It is specious reasoning to say that they don't care at all when they have bothered to clarify the point in a live letter, and given a method of action that you as a player can take to help them solve it. One can come up with as many reasons as they like as for why a behavior against the ToS might be justified in their eyes, at no point does this truly justify anything. It also doesn't change the fact that a behavior is against the ToS. 

One's personal experiences with a GM do not encompass the entire experience of everyone who has reported anyone for any reason. I'm sorry you have had a negative experience with a harassment claim, but that does not justify people breaking the ToS at any point. Houses are moving still, sure. People still buy gil with real money and bully people with parsers, too. People speed all the time on the road irl, but saying "everyone else was doing it" is not a defense that holds up in court, ever. Someone getting away with something is not an indication that SE doesn't care. It is just an indication they haven't been caught yet. If they are not being caught because you refuse to report the people doing it for reason x, then you have given them tacit approval. In doing so, it can be argued that you become part of the problem. 

Snatching up a house to inflate the price to make a large level of profit when relinquishing the plot is about the same sort of act as when that douche bag bought the rights to an AIDS treatment medication and jacked the price up. Yes, you can argue that it is simple supply and demand, and that it is all SE's fault for a flawed housing system. This does not make the action right. Particularly when the people who created and own the game say it is wrong. Flawed systems do not absolve an individual from making bad moral or ethical decisions.

Dude, are you kidding me? How is flipping a pretend video game house for pretend internet money even remotely close to someone jacking up the price of AIDS medication???

In that it is that one is using the exact same thinking to justify and proceed with the action. One takes advantage of a flawed system to the detriment of others in a community. While knowing (i hope) that what they are doing is wrong, but proceeding anyway because profit. This would be why there was the qualifier of "about the same."

But if you have an argument for how snatching up a house soley for the purpose of exploiting other player's want of housing for a massively inflated profit isn't using the same sort of douchebag logic as the above example, i'm open to hearing your argument. Yar.

That medicine is needed for someone's survival. You're not going to catch an infection and die because you didn't get a plot of land in Final Fantasy. Flipping pretend video game houses is not a matter of life and death. They only make that gil because people are willing to pay it, people who don't necessarily need a house, but want one anyway. The buyers could all band together and say nah, I'm not paying that. People who need their meds or their epipens or whatever else somebody is jacking up the price of these days don't always have that option. It's nowhere even close to "about the same".

I never said it was the same in terms of severity or life and death, I said it was using the same douchebag logic as the prior example. That is how it is "about the same." It is about the same because it is an equally predatory act made without regard for others by exploiting a flawed system. It is about the same because when people buy up the limited housing space with the intent of placing an excessive premium on releasing that space to a player, they are giving them no where else to go for housing other than to pay their fee. It uses the same douchebag tactics, that is how it is "about the same." 

The scale of the the acts severity is not what I am comparing here, it is the fact that going through with either act is equally ethically and morally bankrupt.

(08-31-2016, 07:03 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:

(08-31-2016, 06:41 PM)Yssen Wrote:

(08-31-2016, 06:02 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:

(08-31-2016, 11:37 AM)Yssen Wrote:

(08-30-2016, 11:34 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote: Dude, are you kidding me? How is flipping a pretend video game house for pretend internet money even remotely close to someone jacking up the price of AIDS medication???

In that it is that one is using the exact same thinking to justify and proceed with the action. One takes advantage of a flawed system to the detriment of others in a community. While knowing (i hope) that what they are doing is wrong, but proceeding anyway because profit. This would be why there was the qualifier of "about the same."

But if you have an argument for how snatching up a house soley for the purpose of exploiting other player's want of housing for a massively inflated profit isn't using the same sort of douchebag logic as the above example, i'm open to hearing your argument. Yar.

That medicine is needed for someone's survival. You're not going to catch an infection and die because you didn't get a plot of land in Final Fantasy. Flipping pretend video game houses is not a matter of life and death. They only make that gil because people are willing to pay it, people who don't necessarily need a house, but want one anyway. The buyers could all band together and say nah, I'm not paying that. People who need their meds or their epipens or whatever else somebody is jacking up the price of these days don't always have that option. It's nowhere even close to "about the same".

I never said it was the same in terms of severity or life and death, I said it was using the same douchebag logic as the prior example. That is how it is "about the same." It is about the same because it is an equally predatory act made without regard for others by exploiting a flawed system. It is about the same because when people buy up the limited housing space with the intent of placing an excessive premium on releasing that space to a player, they are giving them no where else to go for housing other than to pay their fee. It uses the same douchebag tactics, that is how it is "about the same." 

The scale of the the acts severity is not what I am comparing here, it is the fact that going through with either act is equally ethically and morally bankrupt.

It's not an "equally" predatory act. Buyers can choose not to buy from a house flipper. They can choose to wait for SE to add more plots, or for the relinquish timer to tick down. People who need medicine don't have the choice of not buying or waiting for a patent to expire so they can buy a generic. Equating video game house flippers to a CEO jacking up the price of life saving medicine is a tasteless and unnecessary comparison. Some dude going into Wal-mart and buying up all the new Playstation 5s to resell on e-Bay at a huge price increase? Sure. But there was absolutely no reason to equate something as stupid as house flipping to something that is actually an incredibly evil thing to do.

(08-31-2016, 07:16 PM)Yssen Wrote:

(08-31-2016, 07:03 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:

(08-31-2016, 06:41 PM)Yssen Wrote:

(08-31-2016, 06:02 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:

(08-31-2016, 11:37 AM)Yssen Wrote: In that it is that one is using the exact same thinking to justify and proceed with the action. One takes advantage of a flawed system to the detriment of others in a community. While knowing (i hope) that what they are doing is wrong, but proceeding anyway because profit. This would be why there was the qualifier of "about the same."

But if you have an argument for how snatching up a house soley for the purpose of exploiting other player's want of housing for a massively inflated profit isn't using the same sort of douchebag logic as the above example, i'm open to hearing your argument. Yar.

That medicine is needed for someone's survival. You're not going to catch an infection and die because you didn't get a plot of land in Final Fantasy. Flipping pretend video game houses is not a matter of life and death. They only make that gil because people are willing to pay it, people who don't necessarily need a house, but want one anyway. The buyers could all band together and say nah, I'm not paying that. People who need their meds or their epipens or whatever else somebody is jacking up the price of these days don't always have that option. It's nowhere even close to "about the same".

I never said it was the same in terms of severity or life and death, I said it was using the same douchebag logic as the prior example. That is how it is "about the same." It is about the same because it is an equally predatory act made without regard for others by exploiting a flawed system. It is about the same because when people buy up the limited housing space with the intent of placing an excessive premium on releasing that space to a player, they are giving them no where else to go for housing other than to pay their fee. It uses the same douchebag tactics, that is how it is "about the same." 

The scale of the the acts severity is not what I am comparing here, it is the fact that going through with either act is equally ethically and morally bankrupt.

It's not an "equally" predatory act. Buyers can choose not to buy from a house flipper. They can choose to wait for SE to add more plots, or for the relinquish timer to tick down. People who need medicine don't have the choice of not buying or waiting for a patent to expire so they can buy a generic. Equating video game house flippers to a CEO jacking up the price of life saving medicine is a tasteless and unnecessary comparison. Some dude going into Wal-mart and buying up all the new Playstation 5s to resell on e-Bay at a huge price increase? Sure. But there was absolutely no reason to equate something as stupid as house flipping to something that is actually an incredibly evil thing to do.

As I have explained in an earlier post farther up, the devil is in the moral and ethical details. In this, these acts are the same. The scale of severity is the only thing that is different. The tactics are the same, scoop everything up so you can charge what you wish and make an ridiculous profit because you have cornered the market and are allowed to exploit others because of it. Life saving medicine, playstation 5s, pretend-y fun time housing. The severity of impact on the individuals being exploited, and the product that is being snatched up to exploit others does not really factor in. Those factors do not make this sort of action any more or less ethically and morally wrong.

(08-31-2016, 07:34 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote: I still want to know what I should have been reporting. I cannot send in a reddit post as a proof. I cannot report an FC changing leadership. I can't report a discord conversation. I cannot report a voice conversation. There's no evidence there's nothing there. What should I have reported? What can we report as outsiders looking in? Anyone? Any ideas? What can we do besides not buy at all? As for me, I don't think not buying is an option. If I see someone selling a large plot for a price I can afford I will jump on that so fast my own head will spin.

..And you can send a GM to this post and nothing will get done.

I think, honestly, the best we can do is ask the GMs to do better. If they have an RMT team, well, they do, the RMT team SHOULD be looking at huge amounts of gil moving right? Why isn't that doing the trick? Maybe we could make a post on the official forums asking WHAT we can report? I mean damn, all they said is 'report it' but report WHAT.