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+--- Thread: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance (/showthread.php?tid=16625)
Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Piphan - 07-04-2016
So, I have a friend who RPs as a character that apparently holds a "high resistance" to basically all magic. He has stressed that it's not an "immunity," but that his character is just unable to use magic and is also far less affected by it in all respects. So while this means his character is less affected by offensive magic, it's also intended to mean that he is much harder to heal with healing magic as well.
Now, as far as I have seen so far in my research of the lore, I have a really hard time understanding how something like that could be feasible for a character. It seems like the source of all magic seems to be aether which, in turn, appears to be the source of *everything* in the Final Fantasy universe. Magic users seemingly only manipulate aether to meet their will:
So, for example, if you wanted to receive less damage from a fire spell, then you'd just have to have a higher resistance to fire in general. A Black Mage's fire attacks aren't any different than fire found in nature; it's just a matter of size and scale in regards to one's personal reserves of aether and their ability to manipulate it.
If this is truly the case, then one couldn't just simply say, "I have a high resistance to all magic," right? The individual in question would have to have a resistance to the elements being used, like fire or ice.
If I'm correct in my understanding of how magic and aether work, I personally feel like this sort of characteristic not only "disagrees" with the lore, but kind of flies in the face of the very heart of it all. Being "resistant" or "immune" to all magic seems like it would necessitate the same being true for aether in general which, again, just doesn't seem feasible when you consider that everything in existence depends on aether in some way or another.
Now, I'm not looking to argue about how to RP in the "right" or "wrong" way. If my current understanding of how aether and magic work is correct, it's not like I'm going to go and try to argue with him that he *has* to make a character more lore friendly. I think that's a personal choice for him to decide on, just like it's my personal choice to decide whether or not I find that engaging enough to RP along with.
That having been said, he has asked me if there's a viable in-lore explanation that could allow his character to remain lore-friendly without any big changes to his abilities.
Which brings me here: Is it possible for someone to be generally resistant to all forms of magic? If so, how would that work? In game, how are resistances to magic explained? Are there any key aspects of how magic and aether work in this world that I've missed in my summation above?
Any and all input that can help me figure this out would be greatly appreciated!
RE: Magic, Aether Manipulation, and the Notion of Resistance - Aaron - 07-04-2016
If we're being 100% honest here, oh yeah do note I'm not even trying to be offensive. I tend to type my replies where people tell me it comes off as snide. Trying to fix that.
Your friends entire idea sounds less of a character trait and more of a "I just want some perk/flaw to brag extensively about" type deal.
Like, what does he gain being resistant to magic like that unless he's going to go doing fight rp back to back to back?Â
My advice, I don't think something like that is necessarily lore friendly, but unless he's constantly talking about it or looking to fight people solely to win because had. Shouldn't be too big a deal.
But no, I myself don't think that's lore compliant iirc. Not even Nidhogg is totally resistant to magic and he's a magical dragon. I mean yeah, resistances to elements are a thing in game and you could use that. But they're pretty miniscule when it comes to actually doing anything.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Gegenji - 07-04-2016
Technically, you can have resistance to varying types of magic in the game, from a mechanical standpoint. If you look at your Attributes tab for your character, there's an entire section on elemental resistances - something that is very faintly altered by which Guardian you chose, if I recall correctly. That or your race. In addition, you can meld elemental materia to your gear to further increase your resistance to a particular element and there are elemental resistance potions.
So, as such, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that a character could have natural resistances - or have built them up like some manner of immunity (though I'm less certain on the latter; I don't think you'd get more resistant to Flares just by letting yourself be hit with Fire Magic over and over again). And, I would postulate that fire magic is indeed different than normal fire, just as arcane levin is different than normal lightning. It is merely individuals adapting their personal aether to something on the elemental wheel and projecting that.
... Or something like that. Also, you don't need to have duplicates of this thread in two different sections.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Piphan - 07-04-2016
I really wasn't sure which section it better applied to, so I figured I'd post in both and if it was a big deal then a mod would lock one down and I'd be better informed on where to post questions like this in the future.
I'm new to the forum and since my question applies to both role playing and lore, I wasn't sure... Er, well, there's also the small hope that I might get more responses that way, so I have to admit I was taking advantage of the ambiguity to some degree. Sorry!
But on to your points:
I was thinking along those same lines for the resistances, but I feel a little foolish for not looking at character stats for more detailed information. Great point!
Also, I wasn't aware that elements brought about by aether manipulation were any different from what's found in nature. Not that it's too surprising, I just hadn't found much info that suggested one or the other. I'm definitely interested to hear more, though! What is "arcane levin"? All the google results I pull up on that just leads me to "Lord of Levin," which seems to focus more on the character/quests than anything else.
Also-also, thanks for responding!
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Gegenji - 07-04-2016
"Levin" is just what the game calls lightning. Just like they call a day a "sun" and a month a "moon" and so on. So I was just being overly fancy in saying "magical lightning."
And don't take my words as the absolute truth. I'm mostly spitballing based off what I've seen and read. High fire resistance could very well mean that someone could hold their hand in a campfire longer. Or someone who isn't bothered by the cold winds of Ishgard might have a higher ice resistance. I just always saw magical spells of the types as replicating things found in nature with one's aether more than just creating it - though either is possible.
... I mean, aether-attuned crystals are oft used in that manner. Fire crystals used to make fires or keep things warm, ice crystals to chill things down, and so on. So there could be some weight behind magical fire and regular fire being the same thing. It's all in how you approach it, I suppose.
RE: Magic, Aether Manipulation, and the Notion of Resistance - Piphan - 07-04-2016
(07-04-2016, 03:52 PM)Aaron Wrote: Your friends entire idea sounds less of a character trait and more of a "I just want some perk/flaw to brag extensively about" type deal.
Like, what does he gain being resistant to magic like that unless he's going to go doing fight rp back to back to back?Â
My advice, I don't think something like that is necessarily lore friendly, but unless he's constantly talking about it or looking to fight people solely to win because had. Shouldn't be too big a deal.
Yeah, that's really the reason I've bothered to look into it so much. He's stressed that he doesn't actually fight very much in RP and that he really only maintains it as an important aspect of a certain mystery he's got his character caught in for his storyline. That's understandable to me, but I'm sure there's got to be a way to accomplish whatever it is he's hoping for in a better way that doesn't so blatantly go against the lore.
When pressed about how it *would* affect an RP fight, it seems like it's more or less just a way for him to keep his character alive and to create a more dramatic scene. For example, he could survive a direct blast from a Fire IV spell, but it would still leave him in pretty bad shape. At the same time, he also wouldn't be able to just receive some heals and be back to normal. So it seems like it's something he's trying to use to create more tension for his character. Again, I think this is a clumsy way of going about it, but to each their own.
(07-04-2016, 03:52 PM)Aaron Wrote: But no, I myself don't think that's lore compliant iirc. Not even Nidhogg is totally resistant to magic and he's a magical dragon. I mean yeah, resistances to elements are a thing in game and you could use that. But they're pretty miniscule when it comes to actually doing anything.
If you happen to know, how does Nidhogg's resistance to magic work? Does he possess some ability that just makes magic generally less effective against him, or does he just have a bunch of different elemental resistances that, together, bring a similar effect about?
RE: Magic, Aether Manipulation, and the Notion of Resistance - Parth Makeo - 07-04-2016
(07-04-2016, 03:41 PM)Piphan Wrote: Which brings me here: Is it possible for someone to be generally resistant to all forms of magic?NO
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Piphan - 07-04-2016
(07-04-2016, 04:08 PM)Gegenji Wrote: "Levin" is just what the game calls lightning. Just like they call a day a "sun" and a month a "moon" and so on. So I was just being overly fancy in saying "magical lightning."
*Ohhhhhhhhhh.* Haha, I understand. Makes sense. Is lightning special in that regard, or are there fancy names for fire and ice spells as well? I wanna be down with the magical lingo.
(07-04-2016, 04:08 PM)Gegenji Wrote: And don't take my words as the absolute truth. I'm mostly spitballing based off what I've seen and read.
Of course not! I'm well aware that we're all just ultimately speculating on what we've read, heard, or seen. But that having been said, I do think that with some patience, sound reasoning, and plenty of conversation, we could probably come up with a much more solid understanding of how aether and magic work. The writers for this game did an excellent job in leaving a lot of clues about.
So I'm totally content to spit-ball along with you and whoever else. Other than getting a direct line to the writers behind all this stuff, I can't think of a better way to go about discerning these things.
(07-04-2016, 04:08 PM)Gegenji Wrote: High fire resistance could very well mean that someone could hold their hand in a campfire longer. Or someone who isn't bothered by the cold winds of Ishgard might have a higher ice resistance. I just always saw magical spells of the types as replicating things found in nature with one's aether more than just creating it - though either is possible.
... I mean, aether-attuned crystals are oft used in that manner. Fire crystals used to make fires or keep things warm, ice crystals to chill things down, and so on. So there could be some weight behind magical fire and regular fire being the same thing. It's all in how you approach it, I suppose.
The aether-crystals and their usage are definitely a big part of what got me thinking this way. Normally, I'd assume the same as you have: Fire conjured by magic must surely be at least a little
different than fire created through natural means.... Right?
But when I stop to consider the way aether-crystals are used and the explanation given of how aether ultimately gives life and energy to everything, it seems harder to discern how the two would be different. I'm still digging around and talking for folks to look for examples, though. There could very well be something in the game or in the lore that disagrees with the line of logic I've been following so far, and if so, I'd be pleased as punch to find it.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Piphan - 07-04-2016
(07-04-2016, 04:14 PM)Parth Makeo Wrote:Haha, not that I'm inclined to disagree with you or anything (given everything I said in my initial post), but... Would you mind explaining your position a little more?(07-04-2016, 03:41 PM)Piphan Wrote: Which brings me here: Is it possible for someone to be generally resistant to all forms of magic?NO
I'd love to hear more details.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Unnamed Mercenary - 07-04-2016
(07-04-2016, 04:01 PM)Piphan Wrote: I really wasn't sure which section it better applied to, so I figured I'd post in both and if it was a big deal then a mod would lock one down and I'd be better informed on where to post questions like this in the future.
I'm new to the forum and since my question applies to both role playing and lore, I wasn't sure... Er, well, there's also the small hope that I might get more responses that way, so I have to admit I was taking advantage of the ambiguity to some degree. Sorry!
Former mod, still staff.
The way your topic's worded, it's currently wishy-washy on what you're looking for.
If you're looking strictly for lore, we can keep that one alive. If you're looking for a discussion on whether people could/should/can/want to RP with someone with such magical "restriction", then over here's good.
I'd suggest rewording and maybe retitling each to fit what you're looking for. There's nothing against having a lore thread for the facts and an RP discussion thread for people's opinions. ...you'll....just wanna keep them separate because those are pretty different topics.
---
That said, how someone involves magic in their RP varies within the community in general and within the small peek that RPC provides as well. Some people believe healing magic is a super-fix-it button. Others believe it can help or close wounds, but can't do much more. And so on. The same applies to offensive spells as well. Do we know if there's a difference between a fire started with some flint and an aetherial fire? Not particularly. We know they started from different means and are fueled differently, but they can likely reach the same temperatures and spread.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Maril - 07-04-2016
Modhat on:Â
I have merged two identical topics, and moved this thread to Lore discussion. Please just post the thread in one place, if you're unsure if it's in the right place, you can always alert a moderator for help
 /modhat off
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Valence - 07-04-2016
Everything is made of Aether as you say, and has various amounts of aether body reserves at their disposal in top of their aetherial essence (making some individuals more attuned and powerful at magic than others).Â
However, cast any spell on someone, it will hurt all the same no matter what as far as I know.Â
I don't remember having seen anything in the lore closely resembling to natural elemental resistances, or even magical resistances.Â
I think there is a misunderstanding how magic works. The less someone is attuned to magic doesn't mean that they are resilient to it in turn... I would even more tempted to say, quite the contrary since they have even less means to defend themselves against it.Â
That would be like saying because you are less able to see and use an arrow, then somehow you will resist it more...
Well, to be honest I see where your friend is coming from. The character is supposed to have close to no connection to aether, and so magic ability, but if it's not just a lack of affinity and aether power, but also like a bubble of void preventing them to use magic and be harmed by magic properly, then as you say, it's contradictory and defeats itself. Everyone IS aether. And then, if you say, well, that the character is very much born of aether like everyone's soul, but is somehow cut off from the surrounding aether and the rest of the world, then I would say, it's the best way to go like corrupted crystals go, if you block the flow of aether, but I'm mostly speculating here.
Now then, there are plenty of other ways to be resilient or even invulnerable to magic: barriers of all sorts, among other tools, be them material or aetherial.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Piphan - 07-04-2016
(07-04-2016, 04:26 PM)Nailah Wrote: Modhat on:Â
I have merged two identical topics, and moved this thread to Lore discussion. Please just post the thread in one place, if you're unsure if it's in the right place, you can always alert a moderator for help
/modhat off
Thanks for merging them instead of just deleting one! I was a little worried some of the cool responses might be lost, but that was a huge relief.
As a new member, I wasn't really sure how to go about reaching out to a moderator for a swift response. Is there a way I can tell which moderators are currently online and available for pestering?
Thanks for letting me know!
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Gegenji - 07-04-2016
(07-04-2016, 04:20 PM)Piphan Wrote:(07-04-2016, 04:08 PM)Gegenji Wrote: "Levin" is just what the game calls lightning. Just like they call a day a "sun" and a month a "moon" and so on. So I was just being overly fancy in saying "magical lightning."
*Ohhhhhhhhhh.* Haha, I understand. Makes sense. Is lightning special in that regard, or are there fancy names for fire and ice spells as well? I wanna be down with the magical lingo.
I think levin is the only one with the alternative term. Though all the Primals have fancy titles - Lord of Levin, Lord of the Whorl, Lord of Crags, and so on. Levin is just also used in electrical attacks by some thunder-elemented beasties (ex. Levinbreath).
And the crystals really are the sticky wicket in the situation. I mean, you can also have unaspected crystals - since they are solidified aether - as well as having them be aspected or even overly aspected and corrupted. The latter even negates powerful elemental effects - as corrupted wind crystals were used to break Garuda's wind barrier (which, granted, could also be construed as a purely magical force).
In addition, the Vanu Tribe dailies include what seem to be joint elemented crystals. Firetouched Earth Crystals and the like. So, perhaps the solidified aether does just as arcane casters do and can "attune" to act like a particular element, due to that elemental wheel. And so they are used in place of more mundane uses of the element (fire crystals instead of flint and tinder) because they are similar enough to cause the desired effect?
After all, ice crystals don't melt like normal ice would - so wouldn't it be easier to just use those to chill something down rather than having to make ice?
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Maril - 07-04-2016
(07-04-2016, 04:29 PM)Piphan Wrote:(07-04-2016, 04:26 PM)Nailah Wrote: Modhat on:Â
I have merged two identical topics, and moved this thread to Lore discussion. Please just post the thread in one place, if you're unsure if it's in the right place, you can always alert a moderator for help
/modhat off
Thanks for merging them instead of just deleting one! I was a little worried some of the cool responses might be lost, but that was a huge relief.
As a new member, I wasn't really sure how to go about reaching out to a moderator for a swift response. Is there a way I can tell which moderators are currently online and available for pestering?
Thanks for letting me know!
The team list is here - You can see our names in Green and Blue in the currently browsing list at the bottom of the forum index. All moderators tend to be very active, and you can always send any of us a PM with any questions and concerns