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+--- Thread: [Discussion] Weaknesses for Versitality (/showthread.php?tid=16712)
Weaknesses for Versitality - Morningstar1337 - 07-13-2016
Just a question I am curious about. But for those who have more than one class IC, how do you add drawbacks to compensate for their versatility? Do they gain a weakness as a result of this (Like for example Lamaris' Sage character who can't cast Freeze or Flare without damaging herself)? Do they have less skill in a certain class compared to someone who exclusively dedicates their being to it? Do they have psychological troubles as a result of their training and multiple disciplines?
RE: Weaknesses for Versitality - Andromeda - 07-13-2016
The most important part to me is that it makes sense for the character. Arbitrary flaws as a result of attempts to balance versatility aren't that much better, narratively speaking.Â
Iris is exceptionally studied in magic. While I haven't established her as having abilities outside those of a Scholar with a hint of lesser Summoner abilities, she's also competent in understanding the basic principles of most magic classes. She's also basically spent the last seven years avoiding people she didn't absolutely have to deal with, wasting the resources of her noble house on learning these exotic magics and is a complete disaster in social situations that aren't extremely controlled. She is too obsessed with strategy to adapt to changes in a plan quickly and by in large is a total mess.Â
Actually, instead of her flaws being a result of her skills, the inverse is true. She lost her fiancee in the Calamity (because that player didn't come back for 2.0) and that really seriously damaged her life. She became obsessed with the aetheric sciences as a way to do something other than grieve, and the obsession further damages her life and further fuels her obsession.Â
Basically she doesn't have actual friends that aren't other researchers or Tonberries.Â
A lot of those drawbacks are way less tangible or measurable than the skills, but they do affect her life pretty hard. I don't know if that /balances/ because that depends on how much attention you put on combat potential versus her life actually going well. I think a lot of people have different views on how those two factors balance out. If you're really driven by IC combat prowess, she might be a bit OP despite these flaws. If you aren't all that interested in IC combat, though, I think it more than balances out.
RE: Weaknesses for Versitality - Arzilia - 07-13-2016
It's a really good question, a similar one was asked in another thread, and if I recall correctly the topic was "building a gish". Similar but not really the same!
I like to think that most disciplines are similar to real life and have a logarithmic growth/curve. That means improvement and learning is greater when you start but with time these begin to decrease and improving in an area becomes more difficult.
Perhaps not everything related to a discipline or study follows this curve but we can use the amount of time it takes to advance into the next belt or phase in a martial art as an example. In general it takes less time to move up the ranks at first but the higher belts/phases of your training demand a longer time before being able to apply for the next one.
Many martial artists say that a black belt, for example, is not the complete mastery of your training, but rather the true beginning of it when you are ready to learn the more advanced techniques. I like to think that level 30 in a class in FFXIV is similar to a black belt as it's in that level when you can acquire the job related to that class.
Needless to say, of course it's harder and takes longer even in video games to continue leveling up.
So, I'm really okay with characters that can handle a couple or even a handful of different classes/disciplines, as long as their age allows it and usually stick to their main proficiency or adapt their IC power if they want to even them out.
Let's say a 45 year old character is already a master of their first class and also has some level 30 skill in other two disciplines, that seems really natural and understandable to me. But a 17 year old being job-experienced in three different ones seems special snowflake-y.
As for my character, Arzilia, she has trained as a dragoon since an early age and also has trained in hand-to-hand combat as a side training, but as a pugilist I'd say she's like a level 15, enough to defend herself but may not really be able to beat another dedicated pugilist. She's also kind of young, which I may use that in my favor if I ever want her to learn something else across the years. Obviously none of the other disciplines she'd learn would be as high as her lancing skills.
Hope I managed to explain myself with this wall of text
RE: Weaknesses for Versitality - Valence - 07-13-2016
Firstly I wouldn't put too much credit into labeling everything into the ingame classes. While they are of course good guidelines to use the lore and stay into it, I tend myself more to go directly take into the lore itself and just use the ingame classes as just a tool to equip a certain kind of gear and equipment and emotes and look a certain way. If I want to play a conjurer for example, you bet I'm going to use fire and ice spells as well, espcially if said conjurer learned it before 5 years ago. I don't care if the ingame class doesn't allow me to do it. The lore says it's the way it is. But the ingame class will allow me to wear the correct garb and use the canes I want.
I think a point you might also want to touch is the level of heroism you are aiming for, as well as the audience you try to reach out.
For the first one, you can obviously have skilled and exceptional characters as well as very mundane, average joes, like IRL or anywhere else. People with bigger destinies than others. It's important to know what kind of level of skill and expertise you want to reach. There is a huge difference between playing a dodo farmer and a trained knight that spent his whole life, even if still young, training for his job, yes, but there is also a whole world of difference between a drunkard knight with passable skills and a very talented guy that is expected one day to become a commander. Also, the dodo farmer can also be very skilled in his trade, or not. Don't mock the dodo farmers.
For the audience, it's even trickier I would say. Some people will play very 'anime' characters, shonen style, with over the top actions and drama and everything. Some people like me will swear by realistic and modest, everyday settings playing the lives of your average eorzeans as seen in some quests (mogmail quests is a shining example of that). All in all the audience sets the tone, and if you combine a shonen anime setting with a heroic character you are probably going to play on a warrior of light kind of story, for example.
There is not really one better than another, just different ways of telling a story (clone wars is probably not gonna be told the same way than game of thrones is). It will also probably determine eventually which kind of roleplayers you might spend your time with.
RE: Weaknesses for Versitality - ExAtomos - 07-13-2016
I kind of compare it to real life. IRL, someone can be a skilled singer and guitar player, good with math, and an excellent car mechanic. They are also learning to fence and perform stage combat and enjoy reading books in their spare time. They can be good and proficient at all these things and many more. But there is a big difference between their skills, even though they are good at these things, and someone who has dedicated their life to singing opera and perform for the Met. That level of skill is phenomenal. But of course, the opera singer does other things as well outside of singing.
So, to me, saying "my character is skilled at both white and black magic and must take some ridiculous flaw to balance it" is more... martial arts movie rather than reflective of real life (magic use aside for the moment). In many martial arts movies, someone is only good at martial arts because they have dedicated their whole life to it, to the exclusion of everything else.
(Caveat: This has long been a pet peeve of mine. xD When I played tabletop RP, I'd get frustrated at the skill point limit. I would think, "IRL I can do this, this, this, AND this with some measure of proficiency... but my fantasy character can't have an equal number of skills?")(But then too, it doesn't help that some systems label 1 or 2 dots in an ability as "you suck at this". XD)
Dunno if it makes a difference, but my characters will never be god-like. They can be very good at multiple skills, but none are able to create life or destroy worlds. Some people do enjoy that level of drama, so maybe having an exaggerated flaw to balance the character's powers makes sense? I'm not sure.
RE: Weaknesses for Versitality - Virella - 07-13-2016
I'm a sucker for characters like that having experience due to age mostly. Like Avelyn, she's 45. She's a Fist. But could she beat the shit out of you with most close combat weapons? Oh yeah she could. Mostly due to having studied other type of fighters in her past, and trained in them to understand it better.
Does she have an excellent skill in it? No not at all.
But yes when a young character would claim the same thing, I'm genuinely just roll my eyes OOC, and Ave will just brush them off as little bragging shits. While in the end it is your character, and we got magical animals talking and dragons kept in huge devices in FFXIV, most people do sort of kinda ish still expect your character to be an age to have had the time to gather that experience.
Then again, it is your character, your choices. Ave here is only excels at one thing in the of the day. Multiclass characters can be interesting to play, as long you play them for the story and not so much to go "SHE CAN DO EVERYTHING AND FIX EVERY SINGLE ISSUE WITH HER ABILITIES BASICALLY." And that comes from the person playing the muscle wizard.
RE: Weaknesses for Versitality - Aaron - 07-13-2016
I take a different approach to it all, I don't believe in that knower of all master of none crap. There's plenty side characters in many stories that are like masters of many things because they dedicated their lives to it. Needless to say though, none of said characters are younger than like 40 though, so yeah..
Well no, I'll correct that. Child prodigies are a thing. But that's a trope that's been abused lately.
But that's besides the point. Aaron my character for example is very good at both magic manipulation and swordsman skills considering he spent like three years training with it non stop before his current self I rp. Like, he literally did nothing else but train.
The problem with him however is his after attitude. All that training was counter productive and basically turned him off to actually fighting as he complains about people dodging or having to use effort against people. His attitude restricts him from actually using what he knows. He's a lazy responsibility avoiding guy, and there's been plenty times where he's lost fights simply because he gave up and figured getting beaten was the easy way out, he's even asked opponents if they could hold still and just let him cut them. (I will note it's kinda hard rping him when doing dice events like GS or RS because of this, like, sometimes him winning feels completely ooc to me). But anyone that's probably seen him try to fight would probably say he's a lot stronger than what he gives off.
There's plenty of ways to rp a flawed master or skilled person. You just gotta find one that works best for you.
RE: Weaknesses for Versitality - Sylastair - 07-13-2016
(07-13-2016, 08:59 AM)Virella Wrote: I'm a sucker for characters like that having experience due to age mostly. Like Avelyn, she's 45. She's a Fist. But could she beat the shit out of you with most close combat weapons? Oh yeah she could. Mostly due to having studied other type of fighters in her past, and trained in them to understand it better.Same, I think age and experience tend to make character skill both more believable and more engaging. Whether it's through RP or stories, you see the cost that being truly great in something comes with. Time. Very few people start with a talent for something, and even those that do end up still well behind those that devote themselves to the same task. So you have someone take ten, twenty years learning a range of familiar skills, and maybe they can outdo most in that arena, but what did they give up for that? Failed relationships, missed opportunities and more than likely a good pile of regrets.
Does she have an excellent skill in it? No not at all.
But yes when a young character would claim the same thing, I'm genuinely just roll my eyes OOC, and Ave will just brush them off as little bragging shits. While in the end it is your character, and we got magical animals talking and dragons kept in huge devices in FFXIV, most people do sort of kinda ish still expect your character to be an age to have had the time to gather that experience.
Then again, it is your character, your choices. Ave here is only excels at one thing in the of the day. Multiclass characters can be interesting to play, as long you play them for the story and not so much to go "SHE CAN DO EVERYTHING AND FIX EVERY SINGLE ISSUE WITH HER ABILITIES BASICALLY." And that comes from the person playing the muscle wizard.
Time and age are really one of the great weaknesses to explore, Flynt is on the wrong side of thirty, and only now starting to realize just how much he missed out on and continues to miss being so focused on training and refining his spearmanship. He's got the reading level of maybe a 4th grader, he can barely do any of the administrative work that comes with running a business and can't really hold his own in more 'educated' conversations or environments. Fighting with a spear is cool, but it doesn't do much for him 70% of the time.
On the other end I've a young wannabe monk who at 17 does nothing but get pummelled by almost everyone he fights. He's got a knack for fighting, and works at it doggedly, but he's 17, he just doesn't have the experience to do much, his RP is him earning those stripes so to speak.
It's been touched on a few times now, but I really think that framing things in time is much better than assigning an arbitrary weakness or intentional gimp. Maybe they are great with all bladed weapons, really they are, but what did they lose in the 10/15/20 years getting there?
RE: Weaknesses for Versitality - Warren Castille - 07-13-2016
I tend to approach things with a very pen-and-paper mindset.
Your character has, say, 25 points to spend on their skills. Do you max out a few and be amazing at select things and not-great at others? Dabble and pick up a mix of everything, but nothing exceptional?
I think once you get to the point where you're trading weakness for the right to "buy" multiple, advanced skill sets you are also arriving at the point where you have to consider if that actually contributes to your character. If you're looking to balance, you should also be looking at why you are adding extra traits: If the answer is "because I'd be OP without some sort of flaw" what are you actually trying to accomplish?
If you're special enough to be the master of several, widely-varying disciplines (master swordsman who is also a martial artist and a summoner, for example) why is it then too much to have those things without a flaw or consequence?
RE: Weaknesses for Versitality - ExAtomos - 07-13-2016
Y'all have raised really good point about experience and age. I'm on the "wrong side" of 40 myself, so this is the viewpoint I'm coming from. If I think about my teenager, will she have the same level of proficiency in the various things I've learned over the years? No. But then too, there is a big difference between my teenager and someone who has grown up having to become an adult in a hurry (for example, if you had to start mining at age 8, you're going to be a lot better at it by the time you're 20 than someone who didn't start til they were an adult). And I feel Eorzea is more of the latter with the mix of quasi-medieval and fantasy violence/wars going on.
So, for example, I RP with a character that grew up hunting. They have various proficiencies that are related to hunting (not just ranged weapon use) and are good at them; they have also picked up unrelated skills due to being on their own as an adventurer for the past handful of years. Even though the character is just shy of 20, they can claim to be skilled at these abilities. Could they be 'better' at these abilities than someone older? In my opinion sure, unless the other person also grew up in that environment AND have more years of experience doing them (ie older).
Flaws are something we all have as a result of our experiences (lawd knows I do) and I think our characters should have them too, for the same reasons. I suggest not just randomly assigning a flaw to the character for the sake of balance, but instead letting it evolve naturally or on the fly as you RP.
RE: Weaknesses for Versitality - Valence - 07-13-2016
(07-13-2016, 09:22 AM)Aaron Wrote: But that's besides the point. Aaron my character for example is very good at both magic manipulation and swordsman skills considering he spent like three years training with it non stop before his current self I rp. Like, he literally did nothing else but train.Â
3 years is absolutely peanuts in that kind of things. A drop in the water at best. You will probably be a neophyte after that, nothing more. That's how it works with art, drawing, music, martial arts, swordsmanship or whatever else.
RE: Weaknesses for Versitality - Warren Castille - 07-13-2016
(07-13-2016, 11:50 AM)Valence Wrote:(07-13-2016, 09:22 AM)Aaron Wrote: But that's besides the point. Aaron my character for example is very good at both magic manipulation and swordsman skills considering he spent like three years training with it non stop before his current self I rp. Like, he literally did nothing else but train.Â
3 years is absolutely peanuts in that kind of things. A drop in the water at best. You will probably be a neophyte after that, nothing more. That's how it works with art, drawing, music, martial arts, swordsmanship or whatever else.
Swordplay and spellcasting are, so far as demonstrated in game, completely different schools. 3 years spent doing both would break down to roughly a year and a half each, if you spent every day working on both equally.
Better, if you developed your own style to incorporate both, you would be completely writing a new way of doing things. Those sorts of disciplines can only grow as much as they are challenged, so you would have to be fighting other styles constantly in order to establish how to maneuver around them. Given the different tactics used amongst varying styles of one type of weapon (boxing, wrestling, muy thai, juijitsu just to name some popular barehanded methods) you would be forced to be fighting every type of martial school AND every type of magical school in order to work on those reflexes.
What you're saying is that your custom-grown style has become strong enough to have a response to every form of known combat and you created, honed and perfected it in the time between the Calamity and ARR with time to spare.
Also, for someone who hates fighting, Aaron enters a fuckton of fighting tournaments.
RE: Weaknesses for Versitality - Morningstar1337 - 07-13-2016
I suppose I should be more specific in response to Valence's comment. This is for a Continuity/Journal I called "Borealis", in which my Character is the WoL. But I also want to have her learn most disciplines in a both that and a RP journal I'm making that is separate from the WoL continuity (likely to be Called Austrius) and focus on the "slice of life" aspects, things she does when not on adventures. Mainly as a point of reference for Group RP purposes where I don't want to bring in the Borealis version (think of it as one being canon to the other but not vice-versa)
I feel like The Echo only helps a little, and only after you already proved sufficient on one Job. As such How I'm portraying this is that she is learning the various disciplines for three reasons
- This is based on the In-Game ring decision, I answered power and got the Ring of Fortitude to show for it.
- She as a Sharlayan scholar wannabe has a thirst for knowledge. And you know what thy say about Knowledge being power. One of her goals is to use the accumulated power/Knowledge to eventually return to Sharlayan and overthrow a certain isolationist part of the Forum. A rather ambitious undertaking that would certain takes years or even decades
- She also wants to help people both in Eorzea and Sharlayan. And knows that some problems require a different approach. (This is mainly for Job/Class quests and Crafting, most of which will be in the Borealis continuity)
RE: Weaknesses for Versitality - Virella - 07-13-2016
Going to throw it out here. A lot of roleplayers, including myself, will nope out as soon you drop you are roleplaying the WoL.
It really sounds to me you're trying to roleplay a character for the sake of being powerful and important, and not so much to just write a good story or interesting character. Shortly said, everything screams Mary Sue to me.
RE: Weaknesses for Versitality - Morningstar1337 - 07-13-2016
(07-13-2016, 01:24 PM)Virella Wrote: Going to throw it out here. A lot of roleplayers, including myself, will nope out as soon you drop you are roleplaying the WoL.
It really sounds to me you're trying to roleplay a character for the sake of being powerful and important, and not so much to just write a good story or interesting character. Shortly said, everything screams Mary Sue to me.
This is why I'm doing two continuities in the first place... One is a very Private Continuity as the WoL part and another as an attempt o be a normal adventurer for whatever public RP I can do here. (I don't have any plans on transferring to Balmung for this, Well outside of remaking the character as a level one alt there). And also why I set my title to "Beyond Saving".
On the other hand, I'm a crap author who only experience was writing MLP fanfiction that in hindsight were pretty terrible and my initial intention was just creating a backstory for my character in the first place, and the only other concepts I have were all linked to crazy conspiracy theories.
I plan on writing the Borealis Journal but keep but Now I start to wonder if I already over-thought and planned my character to death...And also if I should add a premtive disclaimer on my signature regarding the continuities.