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+--- Thread: PVP as an RP element...? (/showthread.php?tid=1711)
PVP as an RP element...? - Vareal - 02-22-2013
Seeing as there will be PVP in ARR, however details on the system haven't really be released yet, I'm curious if people were thinking of using this as an avenue for a type of RP battle between either two people or -if they give us some sort of battle ground- between factions and linkshells?
I can see how this would sort of take away from RP in a creative aspect, but I think it might actually add to it, somewhat. Add a more real aspect.
Say you had two linkshells, who in their RPing, were at each others throats or were vying for control of some spot as their headquarters and the only way to decide who gets what or just simply who gets the glory over another is to have a PVP battle.
I think, and this is coming from my Lineage 2 days, it would be extremely cool if they added castles or forts that one linkshell could own, and there be siege's once a month for control.
Personally, I'm kind of teetering on this subject as I've never roll played in an MMO and used PvP as an RP tool. Of course it can't replace the normal means of RP combat, but again I'm just curious what you guys think.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Eva - 02-22-2013
I think everything is speculation until the mechanics of PvP are released. I cannot comment for myself which method I think would be better, and I think either PvP or strict "texting it out" (possibly with the aid of /random) will be left to the preference of those involved in the fight.
In either case, I think it's one of those things that would need to be agreed upon by all parties involved OOCly beforehand, no matter which method is used.
But that's also my own opinion, and the methods for RPing combat are going to be very dependant upon the values and preferences of those involved.
I will say, though, that having another avenue for RPing combat like PvP is exciting and I'm looking forward to seeing how it's implemented. But what I predict you'll find is that those with leanings more towards endgame or who PvP regularly outside of RP will probably prefer this method while those who shy away from it will likely prefer to run through things in emotes. Still... more options definitely is a great thing!Â
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Deirdre - 02-22-2013
I will personally not be using PvP as an RP element, I prefer writing everything out and the fluidity of doing things based on environment and emotions, and not who can tap buttons faster.
I will however, be enjoying PvP as an OOC element ^-^
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Blade - 02-22-2013
Going along with what Eva said, it really depends on the agreement between the two parties out-of-characterly. If you are going to let the game and (your OOC skill) decide who wins in a PvP skirmish, you need to be ready to go along with whatever that result entails. You give up a bit of control for a greater sense of risk and chance and variability... pros and cons to that.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Vareal - 02-22-2013
(02-22-2013, 04:33 PM)Blade Wrote: Going along with what Eva said, it really depends on the agreement between the two parties out-of-characterly. If you are going to let the game and (your OOC skill) decide who wins in a PvP skirmish, you need to be ready to go along with whatever that result entails. You give up a bit of control for a greater sense of risk and chance and variability... pros and cons to that.Yes but that is what makes it a little bit more exciting because you're not in control of the outcome! I mean yes, writing everything out is just as good, but PvP takes away a certain...godmode -for lack of a better term- that people have in their heads about their character.
I mean, rather than just using the game for it's lore, avatars and locations, why not use this tool the game has provided? Sure, I can see how people might say something like, "yeah, my character has this tool though and it trumps that and even though I lost in the PvP, my character wouldn't really loose."
When I played Lineage 2 back in the day, the clan I was in was the second largest on the server. When we fought for control over a castle or we had clan vs clan PvP battles, if we lost it would only make us strive to do better and win the next time.
I dunno, I just think it would be an interesting avenue to at least explore and test. Once we know more about the PvP system.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Deirdre - 02-22-2013
(02-22-2013, 04:47 PM)Vareal Wrote:(02-22-2013, 04:33 PM)Blade Wrote: Going along with what Eva said, it really depends on the agreement between the two parties out-of-characterly. If you are going to let the game and (your OOC skill) decide who wins in a PvP skirmish, you need to be ready to go along with whatever that result entails. You give up a bit of control for a greater sense of risk and chance and variability... pros and cons to that.Yes but that is what makes it a little bit more exciting because you're not in control of the outcome! I mean yes, writing everything out is just as good, but PvP takes away a certain...godmode -for lack of a better term- that people have in their heads about their character.
I mean, rather than just using the game for it's lore, avatars and locations, why not use this tool the game has provided? Sure, I can see how people might say something like, "yeah, my character has this tool though and it trumps that and even though I lost in the PvP, my character wouldn't really loose."
When I played Lineage 2 back in the day, the clan I was in was the second largest on the server. When we fought for control over a castle or we had clan vs clan PvP battles, if we lost it would only make us strive to do better and win the next time.
I dunno, I just think it would be an interesting avenue to at least explore and test. Once we know more about the PvP system.
I've RP'd a lot of combat, a lot, and I have to say most of the people who I have done this with do not contain a sense of GMing. We have a good community here with a lot of honest, character driven people, so you would have to be involved in more of that to judge.
Regarding the random attributes of RPing combat, there is an element of random, though different groups will use different methods to employ it. Some use dice (which we trust one another to do) and some are just honest about circumstances (ie: if a character was injured previously, the characters set weaknesses and strengths). Personally with Deirdre, I choose actions she could take, roll a die if I cannot decide which one best suits the character, and act. Take in to mind I do not win all of my sparring matches either.
I've played a lot of PvP in Aion, I know what PvP entails, and to me it is simply lacking in character development abilities, and the cons outweigh the pros.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Vareal - 02-22-2013
I didn't mean to imply anyone here had a godmode complex, I personally haven't RP'd with a whole lot of people here so I don't know their habits. I was simply using it as an example of what I've seen in the past elsewhere. I've also never RP'd a fight before, so I'm not entirely sure of the different mechanics people use.
All I'm saying is that I think PvP as an RP tool would be interesting, but I guess that could be chalked up to the fact that I don't know any better.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Deirdre - 02-22-2013
(02-22-2013, 05:00 PM)Vareal Wrote: I didn't mean to imply anyone here had a godmode complex, I personally haven't RP'd with a whole lot of people here so I don't know their habits. I was simply using it as an example of what I've seen in the past elsewhere. I've also never RP'd a fight before, so I'm not entirely sure of the different mechanics people use.
All I'm saying is that I think PvP as an RP tool would be interesting, but I guess that could be chalked up to the fact that I don't know any better.
Everyone has their own ways of doing things ^-^
Who knows, the PvP may be designed where we could in fact use if for RP combat, but I will share my experience that this community is very easy going when it comes to RP combat encounter and recommend you try it out ^-^
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Vareal - 02-22-2013
(02-22-2013, 05:03 PM)Deirdre Wrote: Everyone has their own ways of doing things ^-^I hope to do that in the near future. ARR is a new start for me in more than one way.
Who knows, the PvP may be designed where we could in fact use if for RP combat, but I will share my experience that this community is very easy going when it comes to RP combat encounter and recommend you try it out ^-^
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Deirdre - 02-22-2013
(02-22-2013, 05:08 PM)Vareal Wrote:(02-22-2013, 05:03 PM)Deirdre Wrote: Everyone has their own ways of doing things ^-^I hope to do that in the near future. ARR is a new start for me in more than one way.
Who knows, the PvP may be designed where we could in fact use if for RP combat, but I will share my experience that this community is very easy going when it comes to RP combat encounter and recommend you try it out ^-^
Well if you need anything let me know I'm always around
We are actually doing some RP combat in a non-cannon thread on the RPC if you're interested in taking a peek!
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Olofantur - 02-22-2013
Some Excellent points above, I'll throw in my own.
While not a large pvp'er myself I have used the more formal arenas as set pieces in my own stories. The key points I was thinking of using it for in FFXIV ARR providing that it is set up in the arena style some what like Dire Maul.
- Hosting Competitions to settle disputes (Your craftsmanship is better than mine?! TO THE PITS! WE FIGHT WITH NAUGHT BUT WHAT WE MAKE!)
- Training, My sister and I in WoW would often enter the arena to face off attempting tactics on one-another.
- Entertainment, Betting on matches, simply passing the time, maybe rooting for some favorites, mind you this is dependent on our ability to sit in the stands and observe the matches, which I think would also lead to some interesting opportunities. (holding some back door deals as the fights happens?)
- The fights could also have a more "Swordspoint" importance (excellent book by Ellen Kushner) where the fights serve as official closures to arguments, the winner being "right" regardless of the actual truth.
lots of things to considered, it likely won't be a large part of my day to day operations, but to see a new star rise like the Ala'Mhigan Bull would be something worth remembering. Hrm...
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Eva - 02-22-2013
One other thing to keep in mind is that PvP may be considered biased depending on the "gear" element. That is someone who plays through more endgame and has the opportunity to obtain better arms and armor is going to naturally stand a better chance than one of similar skill who is not as well-armed. Some RPers do a lot of endgame activity. Others don't. I'm not sure how accurate it would be to say that someone in the RP world is stronger or faster because they spend more time doing endgame content than someone who would rather take that same time and RP. So that's another variable.
I'd like to see exactly how PvP is set up before expressing any sort of preference, but my inclination right now is along the same lines as Deirdre and I know we've had some fast-paced and fluid RP sparring matches in the past.
I think for something like duels it could be very interesting and may speed things up - again, so long as both participants are all right with going the PvP route as opposed to other RP methods.
I see merit to both methods.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - allgivenover - 02-22-2013
I love me some PVP, but...
Many good reasons why it might not work out very well have been stated by others already, there's the possibility of class/job imbalance to consider too. Some jobs will likely be flat out better at 1v1 PVP than others. For that reason I see using /duel to decide RP conflicts as something that would only be suitable for a very limited amount of RP situations, and only if the outcome is acceptable either way for both parties.
What little PVP occurred in FFXI was totally dominated by Redmage/Ninja if I recall correctly. Many other job/subjob combos had no fighting chance against a Redmage at all.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Sigyn Shieldbreaker - 02-22-2013
I'm in line with Vareal.
I guess I'm one of the few people that is a 100% advocate for PVP being a viable method of dueling. I agree with a lot of the statements above, that the situation and the people involved, as well as their 'skill-level' in PVP are all variables. I also feel that when we start delving into the matter of "It's not fair to use PVP as a method of decision for anything, because some people take the time to get better gear and to practice PVP, and some people are just naturally better" things begin to get a little skewed. If, for instance, PVP was a generally accepted method of dueling and conflict, people would naturally practice and gather the required gear. Oftentimes, it's been my experience that individual skill outclasses gear and class-based advantages, and even level advantages. Skill can be built over time with practice, even by people who think that they 'suck at PVP' and it isn't as one-sided and dictated just by gear and class, etc. as people label it to be. If we're to be so open-minded and mature as to be able to RP out our duels with text, then that same open-mindedness and maturity should apply to PVP. If you never RP a class, don't use it in your PVP. If you lose a duel despite all odds, this is just a surprising victory-- those things happen. Accept them and move on accordingly. Don't assume that because you've 'defeated' someone that they're fainted or dead, and similarly, don't get right up after you've been defeated and start hacking away again with a "HA HA HA I HAD POTIONS, BRAH!". Just like with text-based combat, there are pros and cons, true Roleplayers and trolls who are just antagonizing people for the sake of doing it.
For me, at least with PVP, I have a chance, our levels are where we have gotten them physically (It doesn't sit well with me to roleplay an unbeatable warrior of grandeur who loves to get in fights when I'm level 10 then complain that my physical level isn't my 'real' level....), all of the issues of level difference are simply what they are, and widely accepting PVP as a mode for RP duels usually (but not always) reduces the amount of roleplayers whose characters love to step up to someone but refuse to back up antagonizing words with actions. This happens, in text, and PVP, and both ways, it's really annoying. When someone's character runs their mouth off, insulting everyone around them, then they either use 'Well, I don't resort to PVP' or 'Well, I'm too skilled for you to even touch' as their reasoning for eluding any negative repercussions for their actions. Also, it seems that few people never consider the alternative options for PVP fights, such as running away...
Either way, I don't feel that a PVP duel detracts from Roleplay. In fact, RP almost always seem to be derailed when things devolve into text-based fights, even when done by the most expert roleplayers with the best intentions. People on the sidelines inevitably will try to get involved, and likely be ignored. People instinctively resort to self-preservation and almost no one can subconsciously agree on what a 'expert' level entails. People who normally roleplay as open novices, still manage somehow to elude veterans, and will continue to do so. And, along with everything else, it takes time. If it happens with a group of other people and those people aren't involved in the fight itself, they're stuck sitting there watching you pound out paragraph after paragraph, move after move, and if they try to get involved and -aren't- ignored, things can suddenly become uncomfortably imbalanced.
Altogether, I think maturity and understanding is required for all forms of RP, including duels, in any facet, but I think that PVP is quicker, effective, and a legitimate reflection of how much effort you put into your character to portray how much skill he or she has based on your aspirations.
PVP MAY be an available mechanic of the game, and if so, the people who choose to work hard at it, train hard at it, and invest time in building their character in that sense shouldn't have to be concerned about suffering the stigma of others feeling that it's unfair because they want to dedicate all their time to social roleplay and not take their in-game accomplishments into account. I'm not saying people that only want to resort to text for everything involved in their roleplay are wrong, I'm just saying PVP if it's an option, is an available and viable method of dealing with issues, that can be taught, learned, and excelled at with only a small amount of extraneous time and effort.
** I should also include, no matter what form of fighting you use, I'm not saying you should instigate it to show off your cool new RP tricks or your gear, or whatever. And Class-based advantages/disadvantages can be easily handled one of two ways--
If your character is skilled with his or her fighting craft, he or she probably knows what his or her disadvantages and advantages are. In that sense, looking at a person's clothing and weapons (assuming they have any potential indicator of their class on them) would give them a good idea of what they're up against. If they don't think they can handle it, they should do what any person in that situation does and close their mouths and save themselves the chance of losing, if -surviving- is more important than -honor- or whatever they intended to fight over.
The second is, if you know another class has advantages against you, practice against friends or other individuals who are skilled at that class and try to work out a strategy. This is what a fighter in real life does when they know they have a weakness-- they learn to get around it or compensate for it with something else. What's more, you're allowed multiple classes (which presents a new breed of potential issues) but if you go the route of PVPing only what you RP, you have access to at least the skills of two (maybe three?) classes at one time which reduces some of the potential for class advantage in PVP, I would think.
*** And, I forgot to mention, I think it would be a cool flavor-injector for linkshell v linkshell, company v company things, but, understandably, not many people want to put in effort to get their whole headquarters and reputation built up as a group only to have it knocked out because someone else roflstomped them in PVP. That affects a lot more people than just a 1 v 1 situation.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Deirdre - 02-22-2013
Those of us who spent a lot of time in 1.0 already have our characters to lvl 50 on multiple classes, relics, and high ranking gear. A new character, which there seem to be a lot incoming in the RP community, isn't going to have that. It takes a lot of time and effort to obtain these things, those of us who remained with the game have 2 years of total accumulation. It's going to take newer people a significant amount of time to catch up, and that's just reality.
While I mean to each his own style, no one method is going to be generally accepted in the community.
On the note of people becoming involved in things as fights and sparring, this is definitely not always the case. While of course there may be certain causes for intervention, in my own experiences (and since Deir is a spaz and violent, there is a lot of them) people prefer to stay on the sidelines than interfere. (ex: Deir had gone on a rampage with at least 7 people standing there, no one jumped in to stop it)
RP sparring, where it is coordinated that two people fight for training purposes, occurred a lot as well. In places like The Eorzean Guard it was built in to the shell to train, and the sparring became less technical and more of an intimate relationship between whoever was fighting who. You feed off of one another, it's actually a very wonderful experience.
PvP mechanics, by their very nature, are going to be flawed. There is going to be an imbalance, whether from one class to another or one gear-set to another. It's not something you can control, while you can train at it, you cannot control it like you can text based, and be truer to your character. There isn't going to be on the fly gear switching either, which rules out multiple classes being available to you. If you're a white mage, you're limited to your white mage abilities, and we all know each of our characters are capable of more than that... it's written in the game.
I mean, do what pleases you~ but there are a lot more cool things to focus on in the game than beating someone in straight PvP (which is going to take a lot of grinding, and a lot of practice, and yeah, luck), rather than your character out witting them.