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+--- Thread: [Discussion] [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners (/showthread.php?tid=17346)
[Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners - Gegenji - 09-28-2016
I've been waffling over mentioning this for a little bit since I cleared A12 last night. Considering this thread is being posted, I think it's pretty obvious what conclusion I came to. This is heavily dependent on the end of the Alexander quest chain and the cutscenes that follow, hence the spoiler tags.
Anyway, it's not an uncommon thing -Â at least, not that uncommon at the Runestone where I see most of my magical combat - to see people playing Summoners who can summon and/or trance Primals other than the Big Three and Bahamut. And to varying levels of detail and power creep. Some can only summon the one special Primal Egi - Shoshopu's Leviathan-Egi is a good example of this. Others can summon and trance the whole set - having Titan out as they trance Shiva before switching to a Moggle Mog Egi for combat reasons that escape me. Point is, there's some degree of precedence of RPers accessing Primals beyond Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan.
I've avoided doing much of that myself (even though I "cheated" Gogon into having his Three via absorbing the soul energy of prior Summoners from his Soul Crystal... long story) mostly due to not feeling giving Gogon those abilities really added anything or fit his character beyond "must have all the power." Anyway, as I learned more about Alexander itself and how it was very heavily focused on knowledge and predicting the future (later to be shown through time travel for the Illuminati and Alexander itself apparently existing enough out of time to look at past, present, and future simultaneously and both witness and compute infinite possibilities)... I kinda ended up thinking he was a very fitting Primal for Gogon. This was mentioned back in one of the Prompt threads of which Primal you figure your character would serve if they were Tempered or something similar like that. Anyway, I started musing on the idea of Gogon somehow tapping into Alexander's power.
Now, before the pitchforks come out, the first thing that came to mind that Alexander is way too powerful for there to be an Alexander Egi since even Ramuh was canonically considered too strong for the Warrior of Light - though that's personal belief on the matter and I'm not going to openly refute someone who summons up a tiny castle-mech at the Runestone if they really want to. In fact, I would put the sort of power he had (and the fact he was drawing aether from all over the planet with the horn) roughly in line of Bahamut. Which gave me an alternative solution - trancing. Before I learned about the time travel, I had ideas of Gogon bathing in Alexander's aether when it was ultimately defeated and gaining the ability to trance the robot to fire a giant mecha laser instead of a giant dragon one. A simple re-flavoring of an existing ability, realy.
Then the ending cutscenes happened. Alexander decides to "erase" itself from existence since its own presence defies the reason it was summoned - it cannot create a perfect timeline because its own aether-draining nature will result in causing destruction and ruin. And it does this by effectively stasis-locking itself in a time-bubble for all eternity. Or something. Needless to say, this means that the stolen aether - aspected into what is needed to summon/trance a Primal - is forever locked out of time and is inaccessible.
Which kinda put a damper on my idea.
So it leads me to this thought: folks (like myself) may still want to access Alexander for RP stuff like this. I'm just curious about ways to go about it ICly that might make some manner of sense given the outcome. I suppose being IN Alexander for some or all the fights would suffice - the defeated mechanical enemies and such likely suffused with Alexander's aether - but that also entails being with the Warrior of Light on his delves or at the very least part of Biggs and Wedge's investigations (and yes, I'm aware it's odd to be iffy of that approach when I'm musing over how to ICly gain access to the abilities of a giant, time-traveling mecha-deity). Perhaps just being in Alexander's presence while it was active might be enough - since it wasn't actively tempering things near it (or inadvertently tempering like Goddess apparently does in her little quest) - perhaps in that brief moment the shield is down and it's exposed in its full glory outside the barrier? Or perhaps, even though it's in temporal stasis, it is still technically existing (though it is neither draining nor consuming aether in this state, I'd assuming) and thus just being around it even after the fact could be enough to gather enough "residual aether" to allow Summoners access to its abilities.
Or, conversely, would Alexander be considered "unsummonable/untranceable"? Dreadwyrm Trance required bathing the the residual aether of Bahamut after he was basically exploded, and that never happened to Alexander. And the only time Alexander itself was technically "defeated" was during the fight with the Prime in A12 - thus relegating access only to those who were with the Warrior of Light in that final battle. Or am I just thinking way too hard on this and either should just do what I want using whatever logical-sounding explanation I come up with... or, opposite, just drop the idea because re-flavoring Dreadwyrm Trance is a silly idea?
Thoughts? Theories? Opinions?
RE: [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners - Nero - 09-28-2016
In terms of summoning, I think Alexander is a little bit too much of a stretch, given the circumstances you just described. I don't think summoning an Egi of him would be possible without some seriously weird insertions.
That said, if you really wanted to stick with the idea then I see no reason why a particularly judicious summoner wouldn't be able to combine arcanima with magitek to build a construct of sorts...bonus points if any of the goblins of Idyllshire managed some kind of salvage or some such (Did they? You think if there was anything they could unscrew they'd have nabbed it).
So I think Alexander the Primal is a no-go, off the top of my head. Something artificial made in Alexander's image might be a more workable solution.
RE: [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners - Gegenji - 09-28-2016
What about trancing, though? I definitely figure Alexander-Egi is right out, but he seems to be on similar levels for a Dreadwyrm Trance-esque ability. This may or may not because I love the concept of a giant death-laser in the SMN repertoire, but I kinda want to take a different angle on it - and giant robo-laser seems like a good way to do it. Again, though, it falls in the same foibles as just normal Alex-Egi summoning, I think? I mentioned it all in that huge wall there, I think.
RE: [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners - Nero - 09-28-2016
You'd need a direct source of Alexander's aether for that, regardless of whether the primal is alive or dead. Bahamut left his aether all over Carteneau from his Megaflare, for example, which is where Dreadwyrm Trance comes from.
I admit I haven't read the quest text for Alexander too closely (Mide....snoooooore) but I don't think Alexander actually expends or expresses any aether outside of itself. All of its aether would have to be sourced from inside it, either the creatures it generates or residue from its attacks.
RE: [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners - Aegir - 09-28-2016
![[Image: tumblr_oe8nkjvVe81vfi4y5o1_1280.jpg]](https://68.media.tumblr.com/85661c7a6459e585ae02b78f20654cd3/tumblr_oe8nkjvVe81vfi4y5o1_1280.jpg)
RE: [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners - Gegenji - 09-28-2016
(09-28-2016, 07:51 PM)Aegir Wrote:
... Not making me want one any less.
But yeah, Nero's basically hit the nail on the head for why it seems we can't be able to trance Alexander. At least, not with having gone into Alexander and/or aiding in the destruction of its constructs. Unless...
It'd have to be finicky timing (pun intended, as you will see) but... what if someone was around when Alexander activated its ability and went back in time to the events that started everything? That is Alexander's using its power on reality itself - wouldn't that be an outward expression of its aether? Or any other time that its temporal abilities are used? It's technically affecting all of reality at those points - would that suffuse the nearby area of the time warp with its aether?
Basically, how much aether does there need to be for someone to be able to summon an Egi or gain access to trancing? I might have to go back over the SMN quest lines about this. See if there's ways this could happen in contrast to the evidence available right now that basically says it can't.
RE: [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners - Warren Castille - 09-28-2016
Time traveling paradox. Person went back in time to prevent self from never existing, therefor never existed to go back in time and erase existing, therefor exists and thereby went back in time to prevent itself from existing.
No Fun Allowed says no, Alexander didn't leave aether behind because Alexander doesn't exist.
Fun Allowed says that some people had to have resisted the reality-wave that comes with rewriting reality.
RE: [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners - Aaron - 09-28-2016
If you run into those lore hungry people be prepared for them to go out of their way for seemingly no reason IC and OOC to make you justify why you CAN do it,
Only for them to erase it from their character interactions and never bother talking about it again.
RE: [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners - Edgar - 09-28-2016
(09-28-2016, 08:50 PM)Aaron Wrote: If you run into those lore hungry people be prepared for them to go out of their way for seemingly no reason IC and OOC to make you justify why you CAN do it,
Only for them to erase it from their character interactions and never bother talking about it again.
Pretty much. I'll have my reasons for why my character will be able to do this, and I hope it's good enough for the lore-hounds.
RE: [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners - AlionLucada - 09-28-2016
(09-28-2016, 08:50 PM)Aaron Wrote: If you run into those lore hungry people be prepared for them to go out of their way for seemingly no reason IC and OOC to make you justify why you CAN do it,
Only for them to erase it from their character interactions and never bother talking about it again.
You make it sound like wanting to stay within the bounds of the lore is a bad thing. I never got why people felt the need to tie their characters to important lore figures or give them powers on par with people/jobs that are supposed to be legends or extremely rare.
It's safer and more interesting to play something original that fits the established lore than try to find ways to bend it to justify your character having X ability.
RE: [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners - Gegenji - 09-28-2016
(09-28-2016, 08:27 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Time traveling paradox. Person went back in time to prevent self from never existing, therefor never existed to go back in time and erase existing, therefor exists and thereby went back in time to prevent itself from existing.
No Fun Allowed says no, Alexander didn't leave aether behind because Alexander doesn't exist.
Fun Allowed says that some people had to have resisted the reality-wave that comes with rewriting reality.
You say he doesn't exist... but he's still there in a giant time bubble in the Thaliak River. He did go back in time to effectively cause the events that lead to what happened... but that Codex still existed prior to his jump back. He just maintained a closed loop - nudged a little towards the result he decided on with the help of a small friend.
AND the two that went in with him end up going back in time and becoming the Hotgo precursors - so he has to exist for that to occur. Alex just... kinda took itself out of the equation regarding its actual purpose: creating the perfect timeline. So you can argue your No Fun Allowed angle pretty strongly just with the very facts that have me stumped on whether or not you could get the aether required to create an Egi or Trance him.
And my idea wasn't so much that he resisted the reality-wave distortion as being close enough to be washed in the aether released when it was done. A sort of right place, right time situation. Which is obviously a bit sketchy, but it seems more... "fair"?... in comparison to Gogon delving into the machine with the Warrior of Light.
And if it helps, Alion, I'm mostly musing on this possible link because Alexander has for a while struck me as the Primal most "fitting" for Gogon. And since he has some manner of Summoning ability, being able to Trance him seemed a fun way to do it. The fact that he could ICly fire a giant laser if pushed into a corner is just an added benefit (and seems a more appropriate "manifestation" of the trancing rather than, you know, time manipulation - though a slight slowing/heavy effect added to spells cast while using it or an increase in casting speed might not be unheard of). And not something he would openly flaunt - as trump cards lose their effectiveness if people know about it.
Also, I just have a horrible habit of overthinking things and trying to make my ideas fit into the lore as much as possible. Not to mention this sort of thought project could be fun for anyone else who wants to try to explain their Summoning abilities.
RE: [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners - Aaron - 09-28-2016
(09-28-2016, 10:06 PM)AlionLucada Wrote:No I'm talking about those people who don't actually care about the person's characters but only initiate roleplay with a person just to question them about why they can do X or Y and hope they find something to point out.(09-28-2016, 08:50 PM)Aaron Wrote: If you run into those lore hungry people be prepared for them to go out of their way for seemingly no reason IC and OOC to make you justify why you CAN do it,
Only for them to erase it from their character interactions and never bother talking about it again.
You make it sound like wanting to stay within the bounds of the lore is a bad thing. I never got why people felt the need to tie their characters to important lore figures or give them powers on par with people/jobs that are supposed to be legends or extremely rare.
It's safer and more interesting to play something original that fits the established lore than try to find ways to bend it to justify your character having X ability.
They happen more often than you think. I'm just pointing out if he goes for the Alexander idea he will encounter them.
RE: [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners - Aegir - 09-28-2016
Just do what you think is fun. It's a game, the point is to have fun. Meeting someone with an Alexander summon/Alexander-egi seems fun to me.
Although you know this is what would happen if you had one:
![[Image: tumblr_oe8vnonkRq1vfi4y5o1_1280.jpg]](https://66.media.tumblr.com/3ff99bbf9b0f8dbe9adda393d47005a1/tumblr_oe8vnonkRq1vfi4y5o1_1280.jpg)
RE: [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners - Kellach Woods - 09-28-2016
I'd personally say having the sheer power to overwrite reality like Alex did would definitely leave trace residuals enough to Trance, but anyone seeking to Trance Alexander would need the following pre-requisites:
1) Be aware Alexander existed in the first place. (Obviously)
2) Have sufficient Summoning knowledge to know of Trance. (Again, obviously)
3) Have the ability to identify and sift through "Alexander" tainted aether.
And even then, that's just to have a chance at possibly learning how to Trance Alexander.
You'd have a better chance to cast Enkidu-Egi than that.
Actually, wait, no. You'd have a better chance of Trancing the Warring Triad AT THE SAME TIME than Trancing Alex.
At least until the next expansion where we find out the rewriting of reality Alex did also means that every summoner can do it because technically every summoner was touched with the reality-warp.
RE: [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners - AlionLucada - 09-28-2016
(09-28-2016, 10:38 PM)Aaron Wrote:(09-28-2016, 10:06 PM)AlionLucada Wrote:No I'm talking about those people who don't actually care about the person's characters but only initiate roleplay with a person just to question them about why they can do X or Y and hope they find something to point out.(09-28-2016, 08:50 PM)Aaron Wrote: If you run into those lore hungry people be prepared for them to go out of their way for seemingly no reason IC and OOC to make you justify why you CAN do it,
Only for them to erase it from their character interactions and never bother talking about it again.
You make it sound like wanting to stay within the bounds of the lore is a bad thing. I never got why people felt the need to tie their characters to important lore figures or give them powers on par with people/jobs that are supposed to be legends or extremely rare.
It's safer and more interesting to play something original that fits the established lore than try to find ways to bend it to justify your character having X ability.
They happen more often than you think. I'm just pointing out if he goes for the Alexander idea he will encounter them.
I've never seen this happen, not even once. Now if you're including anyone whose character doesn't immediately buy into the fact that your character can do things that they really shouldn't be able to in the confines of the lore, that's entirely different and something you need to get used to.