+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: Lore Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=49)
+--- Thread: Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] (/showthread.php?tid=17552)
Pages:
1
2
Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] - Kyren - 10-21-2016
Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory
The following is an argument in favor of the Au Ra race being draconian in nature, citing new evidence from the Encyclopedia Eorzea, and offering conjecture and speculation in the areas where we still lack information. I've seen some people mentioning tidbits of this here and there, but I haven't seen anyone pull everything together so I'm going to take a shot at it.
The first and primary argument comes from comparing the Au Ra Creation Myth with descriptions of Bahamut and Tiamat during the Third Astral Era.
The Dawn Father and the Dusk Mother
Quote:"Auri creation myth tells of a world formed by the Dawn Father Azim and the Dusk Mother Nhaama. These two deities came to quarrel over which should rule the new world, and created mortals to serve as soldiers in their war by proxy. These were the first Au Ra - the Raen, children of the Dawn Father, and the Xaela, the chosen of the Dusk Mother. Though they waged a bitter struggle in the name of their creators, they eventually put aside their differences and learned to love one another, giving birth to a new generation. On seeing this, Azim and Nhaama returned to the heavens, leaving the world below in the custody of their children." - Encyclopedia Eorzea pg. 90
The Dawn Wyrm and the Dusk Wyrm
Quote:“Bahamut – One of the first brood, Bahamut lived for countless centuries as a ruler of the southern skies until being slain by the power-hungry Allagan Empire. When the dusk wyrm Tiamat learned of her beloved's untimely fate, she, with the aid of Meracydia's remaining dragon horde, chose to ignore the warnings of her kin and attempt a summoning of the spirit of Bahamut. Her sorrow and anguish, combined with the rage of her kin, however, corrupted the spirit as it returned from the Lifestream – the result a mad tyrant little resembling what had once been the dawn wyrm.†- Encyclopedia Eorzea, pg. 26
Here we have our main point of evidence that the Au Ra are not only draconian but are in fact direct decedents of Bahamut and Tiamat, based on the matching titles/genders. It is also not a stretch to think that when Azim and Nhaama “returned to the heavens,†they were in fact dragons that flew off into the sky. There are, however, still a number of issues with this theory that need to be cleared up.
Bahamut & Tiatmat vs. Azim & Nhaama
Quote:“'Azima' is an Arabic female name, coming from the word asim meaning 'protector.' Since Azeyma goes by the title "The Warden," it is likely that her name was inspired by this.†- http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Azeyma
Azeyma, the Warden, the keeper of the sun and the goddess of inquiry, commanding the element of fire. I would propose that Azeyma was actually inspired by Bahamut, the ruler and guardian of the people of Mercydia, who certainly commanded the element of fire, and whose symbol was the sun. Or, if you prefer, the dawn. And who the first Au Ra likely called 'Azim.'
Tiamat as Nhaama I'm still trying to work out. My best conjecture at this point is that Nhaama may be the Auri word for 'night.'
Relations with Dragons
Quote:"Upon release into the world so many eons ago, Bahamut chose to venture south with his kin Tiamat. The people they found there venerated the dragons, and thus a bond of friendship grew betwixt dragonkind and man. This bond was so great that scholars have reason to believe it was none other than the great wyrm himself who led the mortals of Meracydia against the invading Allagan armies..." - Encyclopedia Eorzea, pg. 207
Through Heavensward we know it's possible for a dragon to fall in love with creatures outside its species. Given the emphasized strength of their bond with the Mercydians it's not a stretch to assume that Bahamut and Tiamat felt the same.
Dragon Reproduction
Quote:“Although dragons will identify their gender as either male or female, be it for the sake of convenience or individual preference, every member of the species is capable of reproducing asexually. The offspring produced in this manner is considered the same “race†as the parent, but over the course of its prolonged existence, a dragon undergoes a series of metamorphic changes that may result in a creature of vastly different physiology. - Encyclopedia Eorzea, pg. 268
Quote:“While capable of procreating with the physical need for a mate, dragons place great value on emotional and spiritual connections. There are instances of individuals bonding as a pair, though the significance of such a relationship is difficult to compare to the marriages that take place between mortals.†- Encyclopedia Eorzea, pg. 269
The make takeaway here is that while it's agreed that dragons CAN reproduce asexually and on their own, the wording strongly implies this is not their ONLY way of reproducing. I suspect the Au Ra are the result of producing through mating with Hyur, Elezen, or possibly Meracydian.
Scale Color
Another issue is the hereditary scale color. As we see can see from Bahamut in his primal form, his scales are fairly dark.
![[Image: K45FYHA]](http://imgur.com/K45FYHA)
However if you take into account this artwork of the first brood, Bahamut is actually much lighter in scale color here.
![[Image: FMrXIho]](http://imgur.com/FMrXIho)
I believe it may be possible that due to the anger and grief of Tiamat and their brood during Bahamut's summoning, his form was actually darkened and changed. Which would align with the Raen inheriting their brilliant white scales. As for Tiamat and the Xaela, well...
![[Image: FXQVgCy]](http://imgur.com/FXQVgCy)
Looks pretty close to me.
Mercydia vs. Othard
And now we come to the largest issue with this theory.
Quote:“Together with my brood-brother Bahamut, I journeyed south to Meracydia. And together, we brought forth innumerable children into the world.†- Tiamat
It is stated that the ancestral home of the Au Ra is the Azim Steppe, where the Xaela have stayed and the Raen eventually left. However, Bahamut and Tiamat by all accounts wandered south to Meracydia and never left. So either
- A) Some Mercydians fled their lands during the war with Allag and made it up to Othard
- B) Bahamut and Tiamat traveled first through Othard, got into some kind some kind of epic lover's quarrel, created the Raen and Xaela to fight each other so they wouldn't have to. But when the two clans put aside their differences and learned to love each other, Bahamut and Tiamat made up and flew off into the sky (eventually traveling to Meracydia), leaving the Au Ra to take care of themselves.
Quote:“Each great wyrm, however, rules its brood in a different manner, with some choosing to command their hordes with dictatorial authority, while others remain aloof, granting their spawn almost complete autonomy.†- Encyclopedia Eorzea, pg. 269
I'm more inclined to believe option B. And I believe the Eorzean Scholars haven't realized this because Bahamut and Tiamat were known by different names in Othard.
Summary
- Bahamut & Tiamat share the same titles/gender association with the Auri Creation Myth.
- The Au Ra had different names for them in their language than what is commonly used now.
- Dragons have been shown to naturally form strong bonds and even fall in love with peoples outside their species.
- Dragons reproduce asexually, however they very likely can reproduce with a mate as well.
- Xaela scales line up with Tiamat. Raen scales may line up with Bahamut in his original form.
- Au Ra are either originally from Meracydia, or Bahamut and Tiamat traveled to Othard before they made their home in Meracydia.
- Au Ra were released with Heavensward, the expansion specifically about dragons.
Based on all the above evidence, I propose the Au Ra are draconic, not demonic in nature, and that they are direct descendants of Bahamut and Tiamat. Of course, this is a theory. Disagreement and discussion is more than welcome!
RE: Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] - Virella - 10-21-2016
Hasn't it been said that Au ra are confirmed NOT to be descendants of dragons? Like, multiply times by the devs and ingame? It's all nice and dandy, but I think the crux of it all was that Ishgard confused them for dragons, but they really aren't dragons, or ever were dragons to begin with?
If anything those Ishgardians are more draconian due to their curse then Au ra ever will be. Oh the irony.
RE: Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] - Aysun - 10-21-2016
(10-21-2016, 05:32 PM)Virella Wrote: Hasn't it been said that Au ra are confirmed NOT to be descendants of dragons? Like, multiply times by the devs and ingame? It's all nice and dandy, but I think the crux of it all was that Ishgard confused them for dragons, but they really aren't dragons, or ever were dragons to begin with?
If anything those Ishgardians are more draconian due to their curse then Au ra ever will be. Oh the irony.
That's what I've seen. However, I do not have sources on hand. Hoping someone else does to verify.
RE: Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] - Virella - 10-21-2016
(10-21-2016, 05:33 PM)Aysun Wrote:Found it!(10-21-2016, 05:32 PM)Virella Wrote: Hasn't it been said that Au ra are confirmed NOT to be descendants of dragons? Like, multiply times by the devs and ingame? It's all nice and dandy, but I think the crux of it all was that Ishgard confused them for dragons, but they really aren't dragons, or ever were dragons to begin with?
If anything those Ishgardians are more draconian due to their curse then Au ra ever will be. Oh the irony.
That's what I've seen. However, I do not have sources on hand. Hoping someone else does to verify.
http://gamerescape.com/2015/06/18/lorecast-6-e3-2015-interview-with-fernehalwes/
F: Way back in 2010, Yoshida floated the idea of a reptilian demi-beastmen race – I think it was in one of the player surveys – and the Au Ra seem to be the eventual result. The concept art showed that they were referred to as draconian, but now they’re said to be demonic. What’s some background on that? Was this changed to prevent association with Shiva’s … relationship?
KF: The original concept was that we wanted to do something different than what we have in the game currently. We have our five races and they’re all fairly humanoid. Even the miqo’te – you have ears and a tail, but take them away and it’s still humanoid. We threw around the idea of the Viera, but, again, take out the ears and it’s humanoid. They wanted something that was a little bit more beastlike. So, you have the ideas of the dragons, and the wolfman art, and then you have the demon look. It went through a lot of different stages, and we tried to take the best of all of them. Of course, when you get the reptilian or draconian design, and you have the story of Heavensward focusing on Ishgard and the Dragonsong War, if you bring in something that is a dragon, you have to wonder how that player fits into the story. We didn’t want there to be that mess or alienate the players that choose that. Once we knew where the story was going to go, we were able to meld it all together and fix the design for what we have now.
RE: Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] - Parvacake - 10-21-2016
I find it most interesting how Bahamut and Tiamat share similar titles to the Dawn Father and Dusk Mother. Regardless of the validity, that part stuck out to me the most.
RE: Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] - Kilieit - 10-21-2016
(10-21-2016, 05:32 PM)Virella Wrote: Hasn't it been said that Au ra are confirmed NOT to be descendants of dragons? Like, multiply times by the devs and ingame? It's all nice and dandy, but I think the crux of it all was that Ishgard confused them for dragons, but they really aren't dragons, or ever were dragons to begin with?
If anything those Ishgardians are more draconian due to their curse then Au ra ever will be. Oh the irony.
Um... no. No it hasn't.
The character creation screen suggests Eorzean scholars believe that Au Ra are not Dravanian in descent, based on traits the Au Ra have which dragons do not (horns which help them hear/perceive space, and sexual dimorphism).
That's a completely different thing than it being "confirmed". The lore team are always extremely ready to point out how "Eorzean scholars" are wrong about everything.
--
Personally I'm fond of the theory outlined in the OP - and of blending it with my stubborn headcanon that Au Ra are Allagan experiments in origin... it explains their seemingly odd mixture of reptilian and mammalian traits, and also accounts, ironically, for a lot of different headcanons about their biology. Allagan creations are genetically unstable, so it's completely possible that, for example, one tribe's tails will grow back if cropped and another's won't - allowing both headcanons to be accepted mid-RP (my au ra like "ah yes, strangers always have odd goings-on with their biology, this is expected") without resorting to meta slap-fights over whose headcanon is more valid.
It'd also explain how they ended up in Othard - since presumably the Allagans touched the continent as well? Maybe they took their experiments from Meracydia and deployed them there instead of sending them to the moon like they did with everything else from Meracydia.
It's a coping mechanism I've developed for the lack of info on au ra biology. >< I'll happily supercede it with more concrete info if we get it, but.
RE: Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] - Parvacake - 10-21-2016
(10-21-2016, 05:36 PM)Virella Wrote:I can get why people say this is the devs flat out saying 'no', but I also don't see a definitive negatory in there save for them working on the concept designs and making it something agreeable across the board and so as to not draw attention to one race over others. Especially when the MSQ focuses on the WoL being essentially the same thing.(10-21-2016, 05:33 PM)Aysun Wrote:Found it!(10-21-2016, 05:32 PM)Virella Wrote: Hasn't it been said that Au ra are confirmed NOT to be descendants of dragons? Like, multiply times by the devs and ingame? It's all nice and dandy, but I think the crux of it all was that Ishgard confused them for dragons, but they really aren't dragons, or ever were dragons to begin with?
If anything those Ishgardians are more draconian due to their curse then Au ra ever will be. Oh the irony.
That's what I've seen. However, I do not have sources on hand. Hoping someone else does to verify.
http://gamerescape.com/2015/06/18/lorecast-6-e3-2015-interview-with-fernehalwes/
F: Way back in 2010, Yoshida floated the idea of a reptilian demi-beastmen race – I think it was in one of the player surveys – and the Au Ra seem to be the eventual result. The concept art showed that they were referred to as draconian, but now they’re said to be demonic. What’s some background on that? Was this changed to prevent association with Shiva’s … relationship?
KF: The original concept was that we wanted to do something different than what we have in the game currently. We have our five races and they’re all fairly humanoid. Even the miqo’te – you have ears and a tail, but take them away and it’s still humanoid. We threw around the idea of the Viera, but, again, take out the ears and it’s humanoid. They wanted something that was a little bit more beastlike. So, you have the ideas of the dragons, and the wolfman art, and then you have the demon look. It went through a lot of different stages, and we tried to take the best of all of them. Of course, when you get the reptilian or draconian design, and you have the story of Heavensward focusing on Ishgard and the Dragonsong War, if you bring in something that is a dragon, you have to wonder how that player fits into the story. We didn’t want there to be that mess or alienate the players that choose that. Once we knew where the story was going to go, we were able to meld it all together and fix the design for what we have now.
Would turn over their whole structure to suddenly bring in a race whose specific MSQ would different or something about the race it is changing some part of the story.
This looks more like addressing the design of the race, not the lore/origin of the race itself.
RE: Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] - Kyren - 10-21-2016
Quote:Of course, when you get the reptilian or draconian design, and you have the story of Heavensward focusing on Ishgard and the Dragonsong War, if you bring in something that is a dragon, you have to wonder how that player fits into the story. We didn’t want there to be that mess or alienate the players that choose that. Once we knew where the story was going to go, we were able to meld it all together and fix the design for what we have now.
Exactly. They never said they were draconian, but they never said they weren't either, they left it up to player interpretation. But now with the lore book and the fact that those titles are the same, I think we have a look at what was supposed to be the original intention. Because they're right, with the expansion the way it was it would have taken way too much time to fit in a backstory for the Au Ra and (probably) have different dialogue depending on if you were one or not. Better for them just to leave it vague. But I do think this is along the lines of what they were going for, and I think it has far more substance and weight against the argument of Au Ra being demonic.
RE: Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] - Melkire - 10-21-2016
My biggest contention with this theory is that there exists another couple to which Azim and Nharma can be equated: Zodiark and Hydaelyn.The light and dark theme matches too, though the genders are mismatched.
The war between Light and Dark that Hydaelyn's and Zodiark's servants wage also fits the Auri myth, whereas (if I'm not mistaken) Bahamut and Tiamat never waged war against one another, not even after she was complicit in summoning a primal in his image.
RE: Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] - Skullcrusher - 10-22-2016
(10-21-2016, 05:40 PM)Kilieit Wrote: Um... no. No it hasn't.
The character creation screen suggests Eorzean scholars believe that Au Ra are  not Dravanian in descent, based on traits the Au Ra have which dragons do not (horns which help them hear/perceive space, and sexual dimorphism).
That's a completely different thing than it being "confirmed". The lore team are always extremely ready to point out how "Eorzean scholars" are wrong about everything.
--
Personally I'm fond of the theory outlined in the OP - and of blending it with my stubborn headcanon that Au Ra are Allagan experiments in origin... it explains their seemingly odd mixture of reptilian and mammalian traits, and also accounts, ironically, for a lot of different headcanons about their biology.
I'm also a fan of OP's theory, but I think it's mostly my WANTING Au Ra to be draconic in nature.
One thing worth mentioning (which may be able to fall into your headcannon) is that, provided bahamut and Tiamat gave Au Ra the ability to reproduce - which they presumably would have; perhaps to differentiate / distance them from themselves or as an experiment - then we can easily imagine mixicity of the two as well as with other races. Such a mixicity of races may have caused a biological evolution in the millenia old race, one that resulted in them resembling the Dragons less and less, making them "more mortal", if you will.
Just a thought. ^^
RE: Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] - Verad - 10-22-2016
Right or not, it's an interesting theology that a character could believe, and could lead to good plots.
I think we're often quite hung up on making sure our characters are "theologically correct" - that they automatically know and believe the metaphysical rules of the world to be true. Believing alternate theories that also fit the evidence the world provides doesn't come up all that much, perhaps out of a fear of our characters being perceived as crackpots.
As such, you should hang onto this idea not as "This is the truth of the setting" but as "This is what my character thinks is the truth of the setting," and watch people launch themselves at you in RP to explain why your character is wrong. That's conflict, and it's fun.
Just be wary of people who then go OOC to say "Um but ACTUALLY you know your character is wrong, right? =)" in tells. Beware these sorts.
RE: Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] - Parvacake - 10-22-2016
(10-22-2016, 01:48 PM)Virella Wrote: Okay, you say 'screw what the devs said'. So what do you want to discuss here with people? Do you want to just have your headcanon praised? Because this isn't discussing lore, but merely gathering praise for your headcanon at this point?With all due respect, no one's actually been able to pull up something that says exactly what they are one way or another. So far the only source has been talking about their appearances and ultimately coming up with a blend of the ideas the devs had to make something less humanoid than things like the miqo'te and viera who, when you take away ears and tails, are more or less just humans.
While I like the effort you put in, it all doesn't matter at the end of the day if dev's stays 'no, they are demonic of origin now, only Ishgardians are stupid enough to confuse them for dragons'... then well, that's how it is? Yeah, it is a shame they bailed out on making them dragons, but don't try to make up 'lore'.
This whole theory is based upon your own headcanon, pushing them to be dragons, while we already have proof they are not. That's not discussion lore, that's just raving on about a part of the lore you don't like, and trying to justify them being dragons; while they are not.
But that's not proving or disproving anything. That still leaves a big hole of curiosity to be explored. Hence why Kyren says specifically at the end that it's simply a theory.
If the devs come outright and say exactly what they are and not just discussing what fueled their aesthetic, then awesome. People will be relieved to at least have a solid answer since Au Ra origin theories have been spiraling around since before the expac even emerged.Â
No one's trying to make up lore either? Not quite sure where you're getting that from since all of this was pulled from the lore book Kyren and I have been looking through and the similarities between titles, timelines, and a few other bits which he has directly quoted. If you'd like, I can personally send pictures of the pages if you do not have a copy of the book presently to look up the page numbers yourself or if others haven't already uploaded pages for others to view.
Quote:That's not discussion lore, that's just raving on about a part of the lore you don't like, and trying to justify them being dragons; while they are not.
Also ??? there as well. Again, this is a theory. The only thing anyone's been able to pull up has been either discussion on their aesthetic or what the scholars have claimed but even then that's not a hard line in the sand. Hell, maybe Osric's the one who's right and it's actually referring to Hydaelyn and Zodiark. FF14 could have Black Dagger Brotherhood'd this shit.
Lastly: no one said this was a part of the lore that wasn't liked. It's a part of the lore that isn't clearly stated, thus theories and discussions are born. Which is what we're doing here
RE: Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] - Oli! - 10-22-2016
(10-21-2016, 05:22 PM)Kyren Wrote: The Dawn Wyrm and the Dusk Wyrm
Quote:“Bahamut – One of the first brood, Bahamut lived for countless centuries as a ruler of the southern skies until being slain by the power-hungry Allagan Empire. When the dusk wyrm Tiamat learned of her beloved's untimely fate, she, with the aid of Meracydia's remaining dragon horde, chose to ignore the warnings of her kin and attempt a summoning of the spirit of Bahamut. Her sorrow and anguish, combined with the rage of her kin, however, corrupted the spirit as it returned from the Lifestream – the result a mad tyrant little resembling what had once been the dawn wyrm.†- Encyclopedia Eorzea, pg. 26
Here we have our main point of evidence that the Au Ra are not only draconian but are in fact direct decedents of Bahamut and Tiamat, based on the matching titles/genders. It is also not a stretch to think that when Azim and Nhaama “returned to the heavens,†they were in fact dragons that flew off into the sky. There are, however, still a number of issues with this theory that need to be cleared up.
Your main point of evidence doesn't make sense to me. This is the story of how Bahamut became a primal, there's no connection to the rest of the argument here.
RE: Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] - Parvacake - 10-22-2016
(10-22-2016, 02:35 PM)Oli! Wrote:He's just referring to the title of dawn wyrm at the endÂ(10-21-2016, 05:22 PM)Kyren Wrote: The Dawn Wyrm and the Dusk Wyrm
Quote:“Bahamut – One of the first brood, Bahamut lived for countless centuries as a ruler of the southern skies until being slain by the power-hungry Allagan Empire. When the dusk wyrm Tiamat learned of her beloved's untimely fate, she, with the aid of Meracydia's remaining dragon horde, chose to ignore the warnings of her kin and attempt a summoning of the spirit of Bahamut. Her sorrow and anguish, combined with the rage of her kin, however, corrupted the spirit as it returned from the Lifestream – the result a mad tyrant little resembling what had once been the dawn wyrm.†- Encyclopedia Eorzea, pg. 26
Here we have our main point of evidence that the Au Ra are not only draconian but are in fact direct decedents of Bahamut and Tiamat, based on the matching titles/genders. It is also not a stretch to think that when Azim and Nhaama “returned to the heavens,†they were in fact dragons that flew off into the sky. There are, however, still a number of issues with this theory that need to be cleared up.
Your main point of evidence doesn't make sense to me. This is the story of how Bahamut became a primal, there's no connection to the rest of the argument here.
 which is where the Dawn Wyrm=Dawn Father theory comes in.
RE: Au Ra Origins: The Dawn & Dusk Theory [Spoilers] - Oli! - 10-22-2016
(10-22-2016, 02:38 PM)Lililove Wrote: He's just referring to the title of dawn wyrm at the endÂ
That's an extremely flimsy connection, not gonna lie.
Not saying it's wrong, because anything can be right in the realm of things we don't know, but I wouldn't consider a shared title to be befitting of the position of "major evidence." At best, it's supplementary.