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Keepers of the Moon and the Elementals - rugen914 - 11-22-2016
Hello! I'm new to Balmung and trying to iron out the details of a character concept. I have a question and after some searching I don't think I have seen it answered anywhere, so apologies in advance if this is a retread of a common theme.
The question I have is about Keepers of the Moon living according to their own hunting traditions in the Twelveswood. The Encyclopaedia Eorzea states that Keepers of the Moon reside mainly in the Shroud, and that they live and hunt freely there and have done so for "many years" in conflict with Gridanian law.
My question is... how? If Gridania is able to communicate directly with the Elementals via the Padjal and their laws represent the Elementals' will, then how have the Keepers of the Moon been able to break those laws and live freely in the Shroud without accruing Woodsin? In 1.0 even the Padjal had to, it seems, work pretty hard to keep the Elementals on-board and to keep the Greenwrath from claiming their citizens. I know that the Elementals' will isn't being demonstrated as firmly now following the damage inflicted by the Calamity, but what about before then? Surely the Keepers of the Moon have been living in the Shroud for longer than the past five-or-so years.
Is there any suggestion in the lore that the Keepers have been historically able to keep from ticking off the Elementals? Do they have their own methods of purging Woodsin? Do the Elementals just embrace them as a part of the forest itself? Have I missed an important detail?
What even is up, y'all?
RE: Keepers of the Moon and the Elementals - Gegenji - 11-22-2016
I don't quite know for sure, but I think it has something to do with the Pact of Gelmorra? I know there was the whole situation of the Sons of Man (aka the playable races) of the Shroud being beholden to the pact, but there was this whole deal about the Keepers and the Duskwights having not accepted the Pact and thus were not part of it?
It's this weird quagmire I do hope someone can explain more clearly. For example - who and who isn't beholden to the Pact? Why were those who refused the Pact still allowed to be in the Shroud without apparently having to suffer any of the consequences for their actions? And, furthermore, why does it affect those who enter the Shroud afterward but not the Duskwights and the Keepers?
It's all really confusing. Or maybe I just missed something or misunderstood something. It wouldn't be the first time.
RE: Keepers of the Moon and the Elementals - Kilieit - 11-22-2016
It's a mess because "fey beings with no concept of morality and we do whatever they say" is not a kind method of government. The simple, canon answer for why the Elementals don't go after them is, as far as I'm aware, "nobody knows, Elementals do what they want". Or, depending on which Gridanian you talk to, possibly "because they come after us instead". Which then leads into why the Gridanians consider them criminals even though they don't actually seem to provoke greenwrath very much.
Quote:Do they have their own methods of purging Woodsin? Do the Elementals just embrace them as a part of the forest itself?
Probably something along these lines.
We know the Hyur / Elezen are historically nomadic races - I imagine it's probable that the reason why they were forced underground, and then later into the Pact, is because a whole bunch of them all arrived at once, started messing up the ecosystem and building buildings and stuff, and got eaten by trees.
But like... "building buildings"... that's the thing. The Gelmorran people, as we know from their extensive warren, liked to build things with stone and wood. They liked to make permanent structures. The Gridanians of today do the same thing, albiet primarily with wood and glass - point is... it's a bit different than the simple wooden watchtowers and removable tents the Keepers we see reside in, and I'm not convinced this manner of living is a result of poverty.
It's civilisation the elementals seem to object to the strongest. The people we see who live peacefully in the wood without being disturbed by the elementals (Sylphs, too!) tend to be pre-industrial, living side-by-side with animals and utilising a minimum of shelters; the people we see who have to worry about woodsin generally have buildings, governments, economies...
Those things are allowed to exist without being torn apart by angry animals because of the Pact, which involves the agreement that some things will not happen, and other things will go back to the forest, in exchange for the civilisation's existence. But if you aren't building a civilisation to start with... if you aren't stockpiling things and trading them for riches, if you're just hunting what you need to eat like any other predator... if you aren't doing anything that would leave a permanent scar on the wood if you were to be gored by a wild boar tomorrow and never come home...
But then, there's the matter of Gridanians considering these people as criminals. There's no legal distinction between an adventurer who recklessly poaches an animal because they didn't realise doing so could potentially cause a greenwrath, and a Keeper who's lived in the forest since she was born and hunts these animals every day and never had a problem and it's not her fault the Wood Wailers decided to move in.
Because... it's completely possible for stuff to happen like Keepers hunting all of the boars that the Elementals will be happy to allow to die this moon, and then a Gridanian goes out and kills one and suddenly everyone's treesnacks because the amount agreed upon as per the Pact was exceeded, even though "those mortals" don't see themselves as ever having signed up to the Pact. Elementals don't care. Treesnack time.
Therefore, Gridanian law doesn't care either.
RE: Keepers of the Moon and the Elementals - rugen914 - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 09:58 AM)Kilieit Wrote: Everything.
This is fantastic and really helps put into context the train of thought that I was on. That the notion of a developing civilisation is what the Elementals are really nervous about. The Encyclopaedia Eorzea says that the Miqo'te think of themselves as part of the natural world itself, and gives their perspective on the city-states:
"To the free-willed Miqo'te, other races' way of life - their wont to flock together with their own kind, to overrun nature to build cities, to seek safety and stability in laws and alliances - must seem quite curious indeed."
This coupled with the important role that hunting clearly plays in their culture leads me to believe that they might have a kind of intuitive understanding of the Twelveswood and the Elementals, but not in the same way that Hearers do, perhaps in being highly attuned to the behaviour of their prey and relying on cues in their environment to let them know what they should hunt and when.
RE: Keepers of the Moon and the Elementals - Valence - 11-22-2016
You put the finger on something that has always ruffled me the wrong way with the lore, because it apparently makes zero sense indeed.
So, firstly, being out of the Pact means not being allowed in the Shroud, period. That's why Gerlmorrans lived underground, and why Duskwights continue to do so. The pact was made between Elementals (of the aetherial plane), and mankind (of the physical plane). It was concluded after Moogles teached gelmorrans how to conjury and how to hear and reach out to the elementals, and how to appease them.
I also don't subscribe to the belief that Elementals are against civilization. That's possibly an interpretation of it though, that could make sense after the War of the Magi as a logical conclusion for them to do. But Elementals also tend to exhibit that very alien, different plane of existence feel that the lore and the MSQ showed us a few times already. It was even stated (by Y'mithra right?) that they dont speak our language, don't think like we do, they are beings of pure eather, and communication with them is in itself a feat. It is very possible that the only thing they see, is forest imbalance that has to be corrected.
The Gridanian explanation though is that every man in the Shroud, Keeper or Elezen or Hyur or anyone else, is bound by the Pact to the Elementals, because we have to remember that man was banned from there after the fall of Amdapor and the war of Magi.Â
Keepers poach, and that's a fact. They seem to cause the same amount of damage to the balance of the wood like the Gridanians could do. The problem is not civilization or not, but the balance of the wood to be threatened or disturbed. Gridanian quests often go at a great lenght to show how the conjurers of Stillglade Fane send requests to the Wailers and God's Quiver with the aim to cull X or Y population of animals or vegetals because that's what the Elementals point out.Â
When Keepers start to disturb that balance since they don't exactly conjure and attune to the Elementals, it tends to spill over indiscriminately over every man in the Shroud. This is incidentally why Gridanians are so wary of Keepers, that they consider as poachers.Â
That is, however, the Gridanian centered view of things, and while there is probably some truth to it, there is also possibly some bias like it is often the case with most subjective points of view in the lore.Â
What we don't know also, is how much time Keepers have been living here for. Were they already living there when the Ixal were still the sole sentient inhabitants of the region and Gelmorrans confined to their caves? Or did they come after the Pact and the foundation of Gridania?
This to my eyes, changes almost everything, because in the latter case, they probably are bound to the Pact like their Gridanians peers, since they showed up after. If they were already living there quietly before however, then it raises a lot of interesting and disturbing questions indeed. How did they co-exist with the Ixal if so? And that could also mean that the Elementals did forgive them sooner the deeds of the Amdapori/Mhachi/Nymians that made them cause the 6th Umbral Calamity. That could mean they didn't care about Keepers indeed because they were way closer to nature (but I also find that a point of contention itself because they still remain sentient and are not pure animals, and have a culture and civlization of their own).
In short? Too many unknowns for me to be able to tell properly what's up with Keepers and the Pact. We only have the Gridanian version.
RE: Keepers of the Moon and the Elementals - Sounsyy - 11-23-2016
(11-22-2016, 09:26 AM)rugen914 Wrote: Is there any suggestion in the lore that the Keepers have been historically able to keep from ticking off the Elementals? Do they have their own methods of purging Woodsin? Do the Elementals just embrace them as a part of the forest itself? Have I missed an important detail?
This is a question that's long been debated. The simple fact is we don't know for sure why, but we do have several theories.
For starters, we do not know when Miqo'te (Keeper and Seeker populations) first came to Tinolqa. We know they live there, but there has never to my knowledge been any hint given to when they arrived. We do know when the Elezen and Hyur arrived, however. The first Elezen began settling in the Black Shroud around the Year 660, during the Second Hyuran Migration of the Sixth Astral Era. The Hyur followed roughly 50 years later, sparking territorial conflicts for several decades until they put aside their differences to build Gelmorra and escape from the threat of the elementals in 740 6AE.
The founding of Gelmorra and later Gridania, as well as any history between the two, only cites Hyuran and Elezen populations. No mention of Miqo'te. The way I see it, you can take this in one of two ways: 1) The Miqo'te pre-date Gelmorra and were already living in the woods, causing jealousy from the Gelmorrans, or 2) Gridania predates the Miqo'te arrival and their arrival after the fact is what caused contention. Which is right? Don't know.
Let's move on to something I can answer though. Why are Miqo'te and Duskwight allowed to hunt in the Shroud without fear of the elementals? My theory has long been that it's not the fact that they hunt that causes issues, it's how and where they hunt that matters more. So the answer is the Trappers' League.
Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:To ensure no man is too greedy in his take, hunters who pursue game in the woods must abide by the regulations of the Trappers’ League. The League also works to combat poachers, whose actions risk upsetting the natural balance of the forest.
Now, this is a slight over-exaggeration of what all the Trappers' League actually does. They're also a group of naturalists who work tirelessly to protect, domesticate, study, and ensure the health of the Wood's creatures, including the Spoken races. They're also responsible for ensuring Gridania's wellbeing by studying pests, viruses, and blights carried by animals and plants which might endanger the Wood or its citizens, such as the Creeping Death, which nearly wiped out Gridania's Hyuran population some 250 years ago.
I actually noticed there's some interesting lore about the Trappers' League in the starting quests for Leatherworker and Archer guilds, which are corroborated in the lore book.
Athelyna Wrote:Archery as practiced in Gridania was born of two distinct styles of bowmanship. The first was devised by the longbow sentries of the Elezen who once ruled the lowlands, while the second belonged to the shortbow hunters of the formerly nomadic Miqo'te. As you will doubtless be aware, both races ultimately came to call the Twelveswood home. Though the two peoples began as rivals, they gradually learned to live together in harmony. During this time, they learned from one another, their two schools of archery intermingling to give birth to the art as it is known today.
Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:The Archers’ Guild began life within the Trappers’ League, a body existing to promote brotherhood amongst hunters. From its advent, the League decided where and when game could be taken in an effort to maintain peace with the elementals. In time, the hunters took to friendly competitions in bowmanship, and eventually a group split away to devote themselves to their weapon of choice. These were the founders of the Archers’ Guild.
Gridanian archery itself emerged from a history of strife betwixt two traditions: techniques of the longbow, beloved of the Elezen, and of the shortbows, developed by Miqo’te hunters. The Elezen sought to defend the forest, and clashed mightily with the Miqo’te, who poached its creatures for their meat. The two ultimately reached an accord, and merged their archery techniques into a unique style not found anywhere else in the realm.
Randall Wrote:As you cannot have failed to notice, the Twelveswood is blessed with an abundance of life, and we Gridanians have long hunted the forest's creatures for both nourishment and clothing. But Gridania is unlike any other place. The elementals that watch over the Twelveswood have never looked kindly on the taking of life, and those who flout their governance do so at their own peril. The elementals decreed that life not be taken without due necessity. And so the Trappers' League was formed to regulate the hunting of animals. The Leatherworkers' Guild was subsequently founded to manage the fair and equitable distribution of pelts. Nowadays, adventurers are a major supplier of pelts, and leather goods have become widespread. But in times past, they were rare and precious. The Leatherworkers' Guild has not forgotten those times. We treat leather with no less respect than the living creatures whence it comes, and craft goods of the highest quality. In so doing, we honor the lives lost, and minimize the need for further killing─an oft-forgotten benefit of our products' surpassing durability.
So on top of all of their other duties, the Trappers' League also regulates what can be hunted, where it can be hunted, and how much. They even take an active effort in hunting down poachers.
Eugenaire Wrote:My name is Eugenaire, of the Trappers' League - the greatest huntsman in these parts. <sigh> Or so I was long ago... Now, it seems I spend more of my days hunting poachers than game.
If you go to Quarrymill in Silent Arbor, which is elemental-sanctioned hunting grounds, you can find out a bit more about the specifics of Gridania's hunting trade. I'll pull quotes from an earlier post on this topic.
Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:An area where the elementals permit hunting, Silent Arbor has been a source of concern in recent times: from trespassing poachers to roaming Duskwight bandits, too many disturb the woods' peace for Gridania's comfort.
(10-10-2015, 06:07 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:Charline Wrote:Quarrymill was named for the waterwheels that served to process raw stone into building material. Over the years, it has come to be a gathering place for hunters and trappers, owing to its location amidst elemental-sanctioned hunting grounds. Quarrymill is also a place of judgement. All outsiders who wish to dwell in the Twelveswood must present themselves here to have their worthiness weighed by the elementals. Those whose petition is denied cannot remain in the wood, nor can they receive of its bounty. Harsh though it may seem, this has been the way of it since time immemorial.
045 Vista Record Wrote:South Shroud Landing
Constructed by Highwind Skyways to serve as a landing for cargo airships, this location was quickly abandoned when the imperial presence in the area became too large to ignore. Now the site is used as a makeshift market where bandits and poachers peddle their ill-gotten wares far from the eyes of the law.
Isarmoix Wrote:Antelope and dormice abound in these parts, but we must be careful not to hunt more than befits our need. What the forest gives, it can just as easily take away.
Wood Wailer Sentry Wrote:Even the bounty of the forest has its limits. To loot it for your own gains is to court the wrath of the elementals...
Now, the whole Coeurlclaw poacher problem is obviously exacerbated by the fact that its "King" requires initiates to murder Wood Wailers.
Faucertaux Wrote:Mayhap you've heard the tales, but the place they call Redbelly Hive wasn't always a wretched nest of scum and villainy. In the old days, it was home to a hamlet called Boughbury, where Hyur and Elezen alike lived a life of peace. That was before the Calamity came and all hells broke loose. Those Redbelly whoresons moved in when the villagers fled, and they've had their run of the place ever since.
And the hatred against the Redbelly Elezen seems to be more motivated by their hostile take over of a once-peaceful hamlet, and their willingness to kill Gridanians.
Faucertaux Wrote:When the surviving villagers tried to return from Gridania, they found those Redbelly bastards living on their land. Bad enough to lose your loved ones, but then to lose what little's left...
Cuthbert Wrote:Do you know how it feels? To see another man in your home, yet you're powerless to throw 'em out? For years!? Gods damn them all...
Conspiracy Theory Wrote:High-ranking members of the Redbelly Wasps have gathered in an abandoned hovel to discuss their next attack on Gridania's trade routes. See that they do not leave alive.
So this begs the question, are Miqo'te hunters really hurting the Wood and angering the elementals as long as they're following the outlines of the Trappers' League? So long as the ones who do breach the protocols are dealt with. Or, is it Gridanian bias? Unfortunately, it is an option we have to consider. Miqo'te, whether native to the Shroud or not, may still be considered "outsiders" in that they were not a part of Gelmorra or a part of Gridania's founding.
(11-22-2016, 11:12 AM)Valence Wrote: What we don't know also, is how much time Keepers have been living here for. Were they already living there when the Ixal were still the sole sentient inhabitants of the region and Gelmorrans confined to their caves?
The Ixal were actually not the sole sentient inhabitants of Tinolqa, nor were they the first. The Sylphs pre-date them by some time. As do the Gelmorrans, actually.
The Raven: 'Neath Garuda's Shadow Wrote:Some 550 years in the past, the Ixal chose the forest of Tinolqa as their homeland. The stories say they built their nests in its trees, and, spreading their wings to the wind, were able to soar among the branches. Even in this ancient time, the Ixal, feeling kinship with the creatures of the sky, revered Garuda as the Empress of Birds. During this age of prosperity the feathered beastmen flourished and multiplied, overflowing the borders of their territory. Their unchecked growth, however, angered the elementals, and the Ixal were cast out of the forest. The exiled birdmen, in search of a new place to roost, migrated en masse to the great canyon known as Xelphatol.
Hope this helps somewhat! ^^ I may come back to this and add a bit more when I have some time.
RE: Keepers of the Moon and the Elementals - Suna/Kana - 12-06-2016
What I want to know is, how does one cleanse Green Wrath? Is there a proper ritual for this sort of thing?
RE: Keepers of the Moon and the Elementals - Gegenji - 12-06-2016
(12-06-2016, 12:54 PM)Suna/Kana Wrote: What I want to know is, how does one cleanse Green Wrath? Is there a proper ritual for this sort of thing?Technically, if Greenwrath occurs, it's already too late. In a 1.0 cutscene, once Greenwrath was invoked, people just sorta... got dissolved away and such by the elementals. Cleansing woodsin, however, I do believe is highly possible - as well as "hiding" your woodsin through ceremonial masks. Sounsyy touched on all this a while back, I think, so I'll defer to her to either confirm or deny that.
RE: Keepers of the Moon and the Elementals - Kilieit - 12-06-2016
I replied to your PM as well, but for general references:
http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Whispers_in_the_Wood
Quote:Zezekuta of the carpenters has shown you the mask you are to wear in the purification rite, explaining that the woodsin which clings to a soul is transferred to the mask by the power and magic of the dances. He warns of the danger of a mask breaking should the woodsin be too great for it to bear.
Etc. Woodsin (and greenwrath) were more of a concern before the Calamity weakened the Elementals, so 1.0 lore is the best place to start when looking into this kind of stuff.
RE: Keepers of the Moon and the Elementals - Sounsyy - 12-06-2016
(12-06-2016, 12:54 PM)Suna/Kana Wrote: What I want to know is, how does one cleanse Green Wrath? Is there a proper ritual for this sort of thing?
There is a proper ritual, only able to be performed by Conjurers of the Fane. This ritual is called a Rite of Purification. This Rite was the central theme of the 1.0 Gridanian storyline when the elementals of the Wood were far more powerful than before the Calamity, back when the Black Shroud lived up to its name and the wood was much thicker, more obstructive, and rumors claimed the pathways through the forest would change as the very trees came alive. The fires that ripped through the Wood have weakened the aetherial balance there, and so rites to cleanse woodsin are never mentioned in the ARR version of the game, though they are occasionally referenced.
There's some obscure lore that tells us, if needed, a Rite of Purification or Cleansing would take place once monthly at a festival called the "Woodgreet Mass." Other events would take place at this Mass, including a Fasting Ceremony (hearers forsake any food not taken directly from the wood), the Leafreading Ceremony (hearers consume hallucinogenic spores), and the main event: the Loam Eye Ceremony, where newly come residents of the Shroud would be showered with earth and leaves.
Light for the Rites Wrote:The Stillglade Fane is busy making preparations for this moon's Woodgreet Mass, and requires several evenfall fireflies to use in the Rites of Purification. In which two and ten of the luminous creatures are released from a basket over the Fane, their light believed to cleanse the sacred land and prepare it for ceremonies to follow.
The actual process of the Rite of Cleansing is best described by some of the NPC quotes below. Essentially an expertly carved mask is placed on the person seeking to be cleansed, the conjurers then draw upon the energies of the crowd (through dance) to draw woodsin out of a person and into the mask. One mask can only hold so much woodsin though before it breaks. Which is one of the reasons why Wood Wailers (who wear the halfmasks to soak up that woodsin) replace their masks regularly, even post-Calamity, but the ritual burning of the Wailer mask has since come to serve as remembrance for those who lost their lives to the Calamity.
Behind the Mask Wrote:Once every full moon, the Wood Wailers conduct a ceremony in which they create a giant pyre and set alight masks to honor the spirits of those spears who fell at the Battle of Carteneau, five summers past. Black Rabbit Traders have been commissioned to provide the masks, and they now seek talented woodworkers to assist them in completing the order in time.
Greenwrath can actually be expunged in a similar manner, though the Conjurers and moogles warn that the occurrence of an elemental relinquishing their hold on one taken by the Wood is incredibly rare and the cost of doing so may prove too steep.
Pudgy Moogle Wrote:And are you— Hey! You understand what I’m saying, kupo! Save a wildling? You mean one taken by the greenwrath, kupo? Taken and claimed? Cleansing a wildling is not easily done, kupo. The conjurers must perform their cleanses. Purges and cleanses, rituals and rites.
Kan-E-Senna Wrote:I have imparted the truth of what transpires, and in their benevolence they have forgiven us much of the greenwrath. So, too, have they consented to return to us those forestborn who were spirited away.
More info on Woodsin, Greenwrath, and Wildlings can be found in the following links and in the quotes below:
-Woodsin Lore
-Woodsin, Wailers, and Wildlings
-Wildling Lore
O-App-Pesi Wrote:Hahaha, well, be that as it may, a cleansing is needed. Woodsin is not to be taken lightly─something you would do well to remember. I gather it is nigh time we hold the rites. Until then, take care not to enter the forest depths. Gods know how much woodsin you've steeped yourselves in. It could well prove your undoing.
We dance to honor the elementals, and they forgive us our woodsin in turn. Thus absolved, their greenwrath will not be stirred. Remember this.
Zezekuta Wrote:Your mask for the purification rite is nearly finished. Come, try it on to test the fit. Is there some problem? I assumed Fufucha had explained everything...
The purification rite is a kind of, well... transference is what the conjurers call it. You see, dancing in the name of the elementals expunges woodsin by transferring it to the dancer's mask and binding it there, magically.
Mestonnaux Wrote:In light of this, the conjurers of Stillglade Fane have resolved to hold a rite of cleansing. Ah, you must forgive me. We forestfolk are wont to assume all know of the rite, so integral is it to our own lives. Let me enlighten you as to our ways. The majority of the rite of cleansing takes place here at Greatloam Growery. The magic enacted during the ceremony quells the greenwrath of the elementals, and thus ensures harmony within the wood.
R'djongo Wrote:We Gridanians have a penchant for festivities you'll not find elsewhere. We hold ceremonies to praise the elementals, and other rite to give them our thanks. We even dance to appease them when they are angered. If the annals are to be believed, there was actually a ceremony intended to arouse their anger at one time. What in the hells was the point of that, I wonder!? And who in their right minds would think to take part!?
RE: Keepers of the Moon and the Elementals - Yssen - 12-06-2016
It is also worth mentioning that the Rite of Purification is far from the only means of staving off the Elemental's wrath. The lore book says:Â
"The customs of the subterranean city of Gelmorra are still practiced by the Duskwight to this day, from architectural advances developed to stake out comfortable residences in dank, humid caves to mystical wards that serve to stave off the wrath of the Elementals." - p.83, under Duskwight Culture section.
It is not entirely a question of whether they are de facto following the law of the Elementals by following the law of the Trapper's (though this could still be true and apply). It is also worth noting that the Duskwights are in no way bound by the Pact (they are giving the Duskwight distinction partially because of their refusal to participate in it and remain in Gelmorra). This all goes to explain that there is more than one way to skin a cat, or in this case prevent a cat from being skinned. Assuming that the Keepers do not have their own method to ward against the Elementals, it is entirely within the realm of possibility that they either learned the wards from the Duskwight, or trade services and goods in exchange for the Duskwight performing them, or both. Both are considered to be outsiders and heretics by Gridania and treated pretty poorly by it's citizens on a whole. My neighbor and I against the enemy, and all that.