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An experimental shift in character. - Vareal - 05-19-2013
I've been thinking a lot recently about how my characters have failed, seem godmoding and all together lore breakers, and I wanted to change that. I wanted a character that I liked, keeping some of what I had created while adhering to the game's lore and sense of time. I believe I have done just that.
Over the past 5 hours, I have been studying the lore of the game; the games timeline, the way time works in the game, events and Miqo'te naming conventions as well as clan structure for Keepers of the Sun. I am happy to say that I am personally pleased with what I've done, however I would like to get some input from the various awesome people from the RPC community; to see what you guys think and to possibly point out inconsistencies with the lore I may have made or overlooked. So without further ado, let me introduce you all to Caden Vadoma. (AKA: Isaac Vadoma)
Biography:
History - Timeline format:
In keeping with naming conventions:
*wipes the sweat from his brow*
~whew!
With all that said, and again I'm very happy, I'd like to get your guy's input on what you think. I'm absolutely adamant on roll playing this time around and I will do whatever I have to to make that happen!
Nothing here is 100% complete and is obviously open to change and alterations.
Thanks for reading~!
RE: An experimental shift in character. - Aysun - 05-19-2013
Here we go!
Please, take everything I say here with a grain of salt. This is just opinion, and my interpretation of what we know, etc. Just trying to help you out with the lore and such! Mainly just things that you can think on.
Race: Miqo'te, Clan: Seeker of the Sun, Tribe: Wolf.
He seems a bit tall for a Miqo'te male. From a study we did, they seem to cap out at about 5'7". This is just an estimate, though, and is not to say there can't be some that are really tall.
The status of nunh does not actually give any leadership status in the tribes for Seekers. It simply is for males who breed. So when his father died, it'd be far more likely that another male who was of age and such would take over the job of nunh, not him. If he wants to be nunh, he'd likely have to fight for it, prove himself, or start his own group.
"All males are born as tia. At any time in their lives, a tia can challenge the tribe nunh to battle. If the tia is victorious, he takes the nunh’s place as tribe breeding male (until he is challenged and defeated), and the nunh becomes a tia once again (if he survives the ordeal). This is done to ensure that the tribe’s offspring are of the finest stock. Depending on its size, a tribe may have multiple nunh (a ratio of one nunh per ten to fifty females is average).
There is only one other way a tia can become a nunh, and that is to leave his tribe, and start his own. This, of course, requires several females to accomplish, and most female Seekers of the Sun are rarely impressed by a male who cannot defeat a nunh.
Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders."
Him opting for a single mate would lose him the name nunh in an instant, me thinks.
The tribe system in the Seekers.. is a bit different than I think you are understanding. The tribe itself in his case would be that of Wolf, therefore they would all have W' starting their names, as you sort of have. "The first name is always proceeded by a letter representing their tribe." You may want to say.. his tribe had 10 family groups, rather than clans, as I don't really understand what you mean by it. If they had different letters (like C' or w/e), they would be technically a different tribe. Clans would be that of him being a Seeker of the Sun.
I tend to avoid major things in my own stories, but that's just because I prefer simplistic characters that can develop more through RP than complex backstory. I get kind of lost around 1570. The Order, the magic infection.. Maybe you can help me out there.
RE: An experimental shift in character. - Vareal - 05-19-2013
(05-19-2013, 10:19 PM)Aysun Wrote: The status of nunh does not actually give any leadership status in the tribes for Seekers. It simply is for males who breed. So when his father died, it'd be far more likely that another male who was of age and such would take over the job of nunh, not him. If he wants to be nunh, he'd likely have to fight for it, prove himself, or start his own group.
He did have to battle for his Nunh status, in 1565. But I do think you're right, that his act of taking a single bride would reduce his status to Tia. And his status as Nunh didn't dictate his leadership status. His father imparted it upon him. Upon his father's death, instead of holding a tribunal to elect a new leader, someone simply took it upon himself to challenge Caden to take his place. Wether or not that would have held up to a tribunal is unknown. I didn't mean to make it seem like Nunh was a status of leadership. I will make the proper adjustments to correct that.
And I do see what you're saying with the clan thing, I did get that mixed up with tribe. There are 26 different tribes, the clan being Seekers of the sun. I will also make that proper adjustment. So I suppose it would be a community with different tribes all gathered together. I was thinking it this way because of the devastation they had to escape from in Ala Mhigo that there weren't many of the tribes left so they formed a community? I don't think that's so far fetched. Also, because Ala Mhigo has historically been a sort of...unstable place, that over the years in that area, tribal structure for some Seekers of the Sun tribes would change, alter slightly.
I'm sort of basing Caden's tribal structure around that.
That would partially attribute to not everyone having the same clan letter assigned to their name, such as Caden's mate, as she's from a different tribe. And his father did mate outside of his tribe. Unless you think that once mated, the female becomes a member of the tribe she marries into.
For example, Caden's mate, C’meina, is of the Coeurl tribe; once mated to Caden she would adopt the Wolf so her name would be W'meina?
Good points all around Aysun, thank you for your input. This was all put together rather hastily for me and isn't entirely. It's helped me immensely to flesh out those aspects. And again, this is still in the experimental stages. Everything is subject to change or to be thrown in the trash.
OH, height! Forgot about that part. I actually changed Isaac's height when that study came out. I gathered from it that Miqo'te males are tall? Eh, just as well. I didn't like him being so tall anyway. I have re-adjusted his height to what it was before.
RE: An experimental shift in character. - Eva - 05-20-2013
(05-19-2013, 09:24 PM)Vareal Wrote: Nothing here is 100% complete and is obviously open to change and alterations.I've read through all of the information, and I think this is probably the most important thing. Â I would urge you never allow it to be 100% complete, and always keep an openness to change and alteration - perhaps not necessarily the backhistory, but particularly early on with a character in the RP process there is a lot of wiggle room to go back and make changes, amendments, deletions. Â This gets more and more difficult to do as time goes on and information is shared with other characters and such changes would impact their RP as well.
To be clear, I'm not saying that you should mold your character to suit the expectations and wishes of others. Â Rather, you may come upon a hook or some point of interest. Â As a sort of example, we realized early on that Eva was a pretty bland character. Â Largely this was by design but we wanted there to be some unusual or uncharacteristic elements to serve as hooks or points of conversation. Â So it was plausible that she learned some sleight-of-hand and parlor tricks from an old boss of hers. Â This kind of happened on the spot and it's been interesting once in awhile when she pulls a gil out of a child's ear or produces a dagger as if from thin air (it may or may not go without saying that she is not the sort of character most would expect this sort of trick from).
In reading around (and this isn't targeted at you specifically), I've also picked up on a huge stress upon the lore and this almost over-dramatic fear of going against it in any way. Â While I think it's important to have a grounded understanding of the lore, I feel like there is too much expectation that certain behaviors or characteristics are a "must" and that there is too much emphasis on adhering to these specifics. Â This probably presents itself because there's minimal opportunity for actual RP right now, and that sort of leaves many of us in a sort of RP vacuum. Â All I can really say is, "Relax... and just let the interactions happen as they will, naturally." Â I feel like many of the newer folk are on pins and needles that someone is going to pop-quiz them on what Ala Mhigo was like, or Garlemald, or Ishgard... and this is really not something that routinely happens (i.e. just because someone says hello to you at a tavern doesn't necessarily mean they want to hear your life story, or that of all of your ancestors). Â My advice would be to think more about the present-day sort of stuff. Â What are your character's interests, hobbies, and that sort of menial day-to-day stuff. Â These things that he or she might find in common with another adventurer are more likely to be discussed casually.
I'm sorry this kind of ran on longer than I'd intended.
TL;DR: Â Don't worry. Â Keep calm, and just RP. Â The minutiae will practically take care of itself as time passes and your character will grow and evolve that way. Â
RE: An experimental shift in character. - Vareal - 05-20-2013
That was extremely helpful insight, Eva, thank you. I understand all the points that have been made so far and believe me, I have listened with open ears and will continue to take them into consideration.
I'm not saying I'm terrified of breaking lore by strictly adhering to it, what I wanted to accomplish here is to have a more well rounded character that has actual roots in a Tribal setting with his particular Miqo'te clan, rather than being raised in a city state. As Aysun had mentioned about the Miqo'te tribal habits, I have taken some liberty there and organized a type of community that may or may not have been feasible in current time or in the past, with many tribes coming together to make one community and mating outside of their respected clans. Also the fact that a Tribal leader is basically like a monarchy, the job passes to the next male heir, females not being allowed to be tribal leaders.
Everything I have posted here is just back story and it's not too terribly in depth. I'm not trying to cater to the people here, to make my character what everyone else will like. I think in the past I've been too focused on back stories of my characters because I write often and I write a lot. My focus now is to have this back story as a basis, but focus more on the here and now.
I have the basic biography for Caden, but I don't know him on a more personal level. Like what kind of quips or quirks he might have, favored actions, speech patterns, whether or not he speaks with a heavy accent and things of that nature.
I just want to be comfortable in my character and so far, I haven't been. That's why I'm going in a different direction, while still keeping most of what I had created for Isaac.
It's worth noting that I do love Ailith as a character, her story hasn't changed from what I had originally created for her, but I feel a little awkward roll playing a female character. So if I don't like this rendition of a male character, then I do have Ailith to fall back onto and will continue on with her.
Again, thank you for the insight and tips. And don't worry about offending me, that's hard to do. Especially after the Eternal Darkness debacle. lol I understand these are all suggestions and I know I won't like them all, but I do listen to each of them.
RE: An experimental shift in character. - Uther - 05-20-2013
(05-20-2013, 12:50 AM)Eva Wrote: Â or Ishgard.........
On a separate note, in addition to what Aysun said, there was one thing that kind of bothered me, and that was the character's age. The idea of him making tough life decisions and battling for his title at age 11 seems kind of weird. Same with putting heads on pikes at age 15. He's your character, so do whatever you want, but the math just doesnt seem to work. Just my opinion.
Also, I'll give you the advice I've given others (and myself about 600 times): keep it simple. Back stories are great and I like to write as well, so I know how easy it is to get caught up in your character. Keep in mind though that your character's journey should be the game, not take place before the game. I'm not saying "Your character should be a boring nobody until you start RPing" but I've found that too much fluff can take away from the experience at hand. Your character has a lot going on. A lot of it I really like, but some of it I think you can kind of cut out. The buzz phrases I like to remind myself of when I make my characters, are "Cut the fat out" and "Streamlined Story".Â
Of course, this is just me. I personally don't like to get myself muddled up in details before I even get the chance to explore the rest of my story in-game. If you're 100% set on every thing your character has done, then more power to you. Just an observation. Hopefully it was helpful and not too nit-picky.
RE: An experimental shift in character. - Vareal - 05-20-2013
Not nit picky at all. But 11 isn't actually a young age to be a monarch, let alone leader of a small tribe. And these elements of his back story are just key notes and will not be elaborated upon at a later date as in a story, or a detailed set of foot notes.
If you look at England, the youngest monarch to be named was Henry VI at nine months. Other young'uns include Edward VI at 9 years and Edward III at 14. And England is an entire country! This is a small tribe of cat people in the woods, maybe 150-200 strong.
When Caden defeated the first Nunh who challenged him for tribal leader, Caden won out of sheer dumb luck, the other guy basically tripped and fell on his sword, so to speak (no one died in this instance). And I messed up the date, he was 16 when he put all the heads on pikes and he did very little of the killing or fighting, mostly the directing. I see where you're coming from, but in a medieval fantasy setting -especially in nomadic-esque tribes- 13 is when a boy becomes a man, able to fight and hold his own at 16 or 17.
Isaac was still a little small and didn't really come into his near-full abilities until he was 18. His journey that led up to the fall of Dalamud really defined who he is.
I honestly see where you are coming from and where problems can arise, and I'm not painting Caden out to be some unstoppable warrior, because he is most definitely not that. He prefers the bow and isn't very good at close quarters with a sword or dagger. People come from all different walks of life, some are forced to mature faster than others. I personally don't have an issue with the age factors here. (all this is just making me want to flesh out the entirety of his back story, but I'm refusing to do so xD)
~looking forward~
**edit
Oh yes, almost forgot. In situations when one as young as, say Edward VI at 9 years, takes the throne, there are several advisers to the king and usually something along the lines of a steward to the throne so the child doesn't have to make all the decisions and can be groomed for when he is finally ready to have the full weight of his office put upon him. Similar is the case with Caden. There are Elder's in the clan that will advise him and see him through tough situations that he cannot possibly handle on his own, lacking wisdom, and there is of course his mother. The father of his mate would become his right hand and main adviser.
RE: An experimental shift in character. - Folken - 05-20-2013
Except these tribes aren't a hereditary monarchy like the examples you gave. Your European examples are horrible as all monarchies are not the same, and nowhere does it state that Nunh status is passed on naturally to the offspring (As it's highly unlikely, as once a nunh become too old he is then bested by a younger and stronger one, which could and is likely his own offspring. But it's not just automatically passed down. Edward VI got his title and position because his dad (Henry VII) got fat and died, thus his title passed to his heir, because he was part of a hereditary monarchy. Which the tribes of Miqo'te are NOT. Miqo'te tribes aren't even a monarchy by definition, they have a leader who is often NOT a nunh, who is most likely an elder such as in cases of tribal kinship.
Additionally it's INCREDIBLY unlikely an 11 year old could best an adult who has probably defended his position from more capable attempts at his seat. And even if he was "lucky" enough to beat him, that luck would not extend to the numerous challenges he'd face mostly instantly. Not to mention the fact that at 11 it's likely he would not even be able to breed successfully at that age in the first place. Most males don't reach that stage till on average 13 years of age. So what kind of tribe would allow a BREEDING male to be in that important position that couldn't breed? The answer, they wouldn't.Â
And then ON TOP of this, he was a runt too until he was 18? And so he's not a good warrior, he was small for 7 years after his rise to position. This group of Miqo'te must have been on a small island in the middle of nowhere and he was the only male that wasn't an old man or a bumbling child. Because any culturally tribal raised Miqo'te male would have challenged, and likely beaten such a nunh.
So the problem lies in that because your character isn't "Some unstoppable warrior" that doesn't mean you haven't created a backstory that is completely unreasonable and unrealistic. And in fact, stating that he isn't a good warrior, makes his story EVEN HARDER TO BELIEVE. Which makes it all the more worse.
RE: An experimental shift in character. - Vareal - 05-20-2013
(05-20-2013, 05:14 AM)Shippuu Wrote: and nowhere does it state that Nunh status is passed on naturally to the offspring
Haven't even finished reading yours, but I will, and for the last time he was not born an nunh, and no were did I state that so stop coming away with it. Besides, if you would have READ everything, you'd know that he lost the Nunh status pretty much as soon as he gained it by only taking a single mate rather than the traditional 10-50. His status of nunh was not given to him because he was made a tribal leader, the examples of the england monarchs are exactly those, examples of young rulers in the most general sense, this societal structure isn't really a monarchy in that sense anyway. He can be replaced at any time and he probably would have, but he had the support of several of the other elders and gave him a chance because of who his father was. And again, his win over that first nunh was complete, utter, sheer dumb luck.
The more I read yours, Shipp, the more I think you didn't read what i wrote and just read what others saw as issues and are playing on those.
Also never said he wasn't a good warrior. He just has flaws and is better with the bow than the sword, but that doesn't mean he can't hold is own. And I probably should have clarified that he started to grow rapidly when he turned 13, gaining his height and muscle mass. This isn't uncommon for maternal twins, the second born being the proverbial "runt" of the litter but still growing up perfectly healthy, just takes a little longer to develop. By the time he was 15, he had received challenges of several other nunh's and tia's for leadership and defeated them. On his 16th birthday he consummated his marriage. [/size]
And again, you're taking my example of a monarchy in the tribe too far and probably missed the part that this societal structure is different from other Miqo'te tribes because it was formed differently. It's more of a tribunal, where the tribe leader can make decisions, yes, but major things such as laws or punishments go before the tribunal. It's not strictly a monarchy.
And besides, nothing is set in stone here and nothing has been implemented on this character structure as it is "an experiment shift in character."
RE: An experimental shift in character. - allgivenover - 05-20-2013
We don't actually know how leadership is handled with Seekers or Keepers. The only information they've given us is how the Tia/Nuhn dynamic works and its relation to naming conventions. If Vareal wants to be from a tribe that uses a tribunal to decide leadership or that leadership is passed from chief to the chiefs favored offspring, he's entirely free to do so. There's really no reason to be so aggressively critical towards Vareal about his background.Â
This community is for bringing RPers together correct? There's a lot of different styles of roleplay and everyone has different standards and ideas about backgrounds. Vareal's is a little more heroic and unlikely than most, but it's entirely possible to offer some helpful criticism without being so aggressively negative. Having disagreements and debates over what the lore is is totally fine, and something I actually enjoy, but hostility towards others use of the lore (assuming it's not obviously lore-breaking) is detrimental to keeping that community open and thriving. This place isn't meant to be a litmus test for character background validity enforced by the community (at least, I sincerely hope it's not meant to be), so please relax.
My advice to you Vareal is, as Eva said, to keep things open to change, my own addition to that is that simple is usually better, as it's always much easier to add to a background later on than it is to justify things down the road. I don't think you're doing anything inherently wrong here, although I do think his age at the time of his ascension to leadership is a little low if he's also a late bloomer in terms of development. If he were even slightly older this would be largely mitigated.
RE: An experimental shift in character. - Uther - 05-20-2013
(05-20-2013, 11:56 AM)allgivenover Wrote: There's really no reason to be so aggressively critical towards Vareal about his background.Â
Can't stress this enough. If you disagree with something Vareal has said about his character, there's nothing wrong with that. But keep in mind it is his character and he can do what he wants with it. I can understand if his character is getting completely out of control and ridiculous (which it isn't), but even then wouldn't it be more tactful to just say "Hey, I did some fact-checking and this is why this wouldn't work"?
I thought the age thing was a bit off myself. He's right about the European monarchies, however you brought up a good counter-point about hereditary monarchy vs. tribal leadership. I agree with you, Ship, (to a significantly less aggressive extent) that this all seems pretty unlikely. Him getting power from his father is fine if that's the way Vareal wants his off-shoot tribe to work, but battling another tribe member at 11 is a bit far-fetched. I'm guilty of similar situations, for example, Uther Skystrider went to battle for the first time at 15 (albeit, under the supervision of his father and older brothers who were already experienced.) 11 does seem too young, but it's not my character, it's Vareal's and he can do what he wants with it. All we can do is try to help him out when he asks for it.
RE: An experimental shift in character. - Vareal - 05-20-2013
(05-20-2013, 11:56 AM)allgivenover Wrote: I don't think you're doing anything inherently wrong here, although I do think his age at the time of his ascension to leadership is a little low if he's also a late bloomer in terms of development. If he were even slightly older this would be largely mitigated.
This seems to be the common issue and I have taken it into consideration and have made the necessary change in Caden's date of birth to 05/3/1548.
This would make him 16 years old when he inherits leadership of the Tribe, 21 when his mate and mother are murdered and he deals with the Gryphon tribe by killing their Nunh and Elder. 24 years old at the battle of Cartnaneau Flats.
By 16 years old, he would have grown out of "runt" status and come into near his full body, and by then he would have already been combat trained and had proven himself as a warrior, on a smaller scale, and also as a man.
I'm also increasing his ability with the sword. Not drastically so, he's still much better with a bow, but it would be equivalent of going from lvl20-30 out of 50, where is skill with a bow is around 48. Note that these skill changes are for when he returns from the void and is in his prime, at this juncture in his existence.
RE: An experimental shift in character. - Uther - 05-20-2013
Now it makes a lot more sense. I still feel bad about harping on his age so much, since that isn't a lore-related issue. It does flow significantly better with the five year addition though.
Another question, and this one is strictly about lore: you said Caden ages five years between the fall of Dalamud and ARR, but also gets thrown forward in time like the other Adventurers who were at the battle. How does that work?
Again, not trying to be nit-picky, I just want to make sure you have your story straight so you don't dig yourself into a hole on accident or anything. Like Eva said, there isn't going to be a pop quiz, but I still think it's useful to know every last detail about everything that ever happened to your character in case it comes up. I tend to go overboard with this, which you don't have to, but consistency is underrated in my opinion and if your character says something important to mine, odds are it will come up later and my character will probably ask yours about it. Especially something as wild as "I jumped forward in time."
[sub]I realize a lot of people jumped forward in time, but my character doesn't.[/sub]
RE: An experimental shift in character. - Vareal - 05-20-2013
(05-20-2013, 12:49 PM)Abodo Wrote: Another question, and this one is strictly about lore: you said Caden ages five years between the fall of Dalamud and ARR, but also gets thrown forward in time like the other Adventurers who were at the battle. How does that work?
Don't worry about being nit picky, it also helps me to make sure I do have my facts straight. Allow me to clarify about Caden's time in the Void:
He goes into the void like everyone else and does not age, physically. However, it is still five years later so while he's still the same as he was at age 24 when he went in, technically speaking he's 29 years old, however his physical appearance and mentality do not reflect this. I suppose it is kind of confusing when you think about it that way... so lets just suffice it to say he's still 24 when ARR launches and everyone returns from the void.
His sister Ailith, however, does not go into the void. So at the time of ARR, she is 29 years old and her physical appearance and mentality will reflect as such when, or IF, she returns to Eorzea.
Also, as a side note because I love Ailith as a character, I just wanted to mention that she is extremely gifted with a sword. I won't delve into anything, but once Melfina takes Caden and Ailith into the Order of the Twilight Guardians, Ailith outmatches any of the other members with her abilities. She furthers her training as a swordswoman by taking up a second sword. Kinda sucks when she looses an arm though ;p
RE: An experimental shift in character. - Eva - 05-20-2013
Abodo Wrote:Another question, and this one is strictly about lore: you said Caden ages five years between the fall of Dalamud and ARR, but also gets thrown forward in time like the other Adventurers who were at the battle. How does that work?
I don't want to speak for Vareal, but this is one of those things that may be open to interpretation.
From the OP:
Vareal Wrote:Age: 18 (23 after he’s returned from the void, though didn’t age)
I think it's fair to say that most time-jumpers are keeping their age as it was in 1572 and not tacking on the 5 years.  I don't think there's really a right or wrong here.  If you determine a character's age to be the year of his/her birth subtracted from the present year, than tacking on the 5 years makes a certain sort of sense.  For myself - it makes more sense for the age to be kept as it was in 1572.  Being "untouched by time", those five years would not have happened for her.  As far as she knows (or most of the so-called "hollow ones"), no time at all will seem to have passed between entering this time rift and coming out of it.  So she'll be 32 going in.  For me it doesn't make a lot of sense for her to suddenly think she was 37 on coming out of it.  Various RPers will have different feelings about this though.  After learning of the 5-year gap, some time-skippers might prefer to remain true to the actual timeline and actually tack the 5 years on to their age.  It all depends on the character, I suppose.  Again, there's no right or wrong.
The important thing here is that the passage of time does not touch those who have entered the rift, so regardless of whether a character claims that he/she is +5 years or not, they would not show signs of that age, nor would they possess any experience, knowledge, etc. garnered during that time. Â I think there was a discussion about this several months back and we kind of looked upon it as sort of being similar to cryogenics or being put into stasis for 5 years.
EDIT: Looks like Vareal clarified as I was posting this but I'll leave it here for the sake of clarity. Sorry for any redundancy.