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With Great Power... - Orlog - 07-05-2013
(07-04-2013, 05:05 AM)Renaise Wrote:
![[Image: supermanlead.jpg?1360325163]](http://cdn.pastemagazine.com/www/articles/supermanlead.jpg?1360325163)
Admittedly, I kind of winced when I seen this. I mean no offense, but why Superman? I've honestly never been able to understand people's interest in him. Let's be honest, he's a plot device of a character, claiming to have this golden compass of a morality code, but in all honesty, when do you actually see him doing things other than fighting of meteors and strange super beings? It's almost like the little stuff like purse snatching and murderers are too beneath him to bother with.
So, is it just because you grew up with him? What is it that you like? Tell me; I NEED TO KNOW.
RE: Favorite Comic hero? - Uther - 07-05-2013
(07-05-2013, 06:12 PM)Bea Wrote: Admittedly, I kind of winced when I seen this. I mean no offense, but why Superman? I've honestly never been able to understand people's interest in him. Let's be honest, he's a plot device of a character, claiming to have this golden compass of a morality code, but in all honesty, when do you actually see him doing things other than fighting of meteors and strange super beings? It's almost like the little stuff like purse snatching and murderers are too beneath him to bother with.
So, is it just because you grew up with him? What is it that you like? Tell me; I NEED TO KNOW.
EVEN THOUGH I HONOR YOU, GUILDY, I'm going to have to disagree here.
I used to feel the same way about Superman as you, and it's kind of hard to define his appeal in a few short sentences. I can definitely recommend some reading though that might change your opinion of him. Kingdom Come and Superman/Batman: The Search For Kryptonite are both outstanding reads. Really the entire Superman/Batman series that Jeph Loeb started is nothing short of amazing. Superman: Earth One also puts the character in a better perspective. I will say this, in your defense, he is very difficult to write well. Most writers fail miserably with Superman because they can't seem to give him character beyond "I'm good." But, when he's done well, he's done very well.
When creating Uther, I had the same issue. I thought "well, he's a 'good guy'.. now what?" and I actually had to re-read those comics I just named and a few others to get inspiration on how to make him more than just a one-dimensional 'good guy'.Â
Sorry that was kind of void of any real argument, but it's difficult to explain. I highly suggest reading those comics. Kingdom Come is one of my personal favorites because it has the same "Classic super hero tale flipped on its head" vibe that Watchmen has, though in a very different way. It asks a lot of questions about how to handle super criminals and what really makes a super hero a super hero.
RE: Favorite Comic hero? - Black - 07-07-2013
(07-05-2013, 06:12 PM)Bea Wrote:(07-04-2013, 05:05 AM)Renaise Wrote:
Admittedly, I kind of winced when I seen this. I mean no offense, but why Superman? I've honestly never been able to understand people's interest in him. Let's be honest, he's a plot device of a character, claiming to have this golden compass of a morality code, but in all honesty, when do you actually see him doing things other than fighting of meteors and strange super beings? It's almost like the little stuff like purse snatching and murderers are too beneath him to bother with.
So, is it just because you grew up with him? What is it that you like? Tell me; I NEED TO KNOW.
I am going to take a different approach from what many people that reply to you said and assume you won't pick up these issues (or the recent animated DVD movies that are based on them) and just answer you...although this is my perspective.
To me, Superman isn't a favorite/favorite, but he is still pretty high on the list of characters I like.
I come at him from a different angle (and some of this is covered under All-Star Superman series).
Superman is basically a man, with the powers of a god, that wants to be a normal man. Since he can't be that, he takes up the responsibility to use his powers for the greater good of mankind and doesn't impose himself on others.
There is a common failing in many folks and the saying of, "Power corrupts...." and that is not true with Superman. He is a role model of non-corruption, or tries to be. He is not always perfect, but tows the line and doesn't let his power color his view of himself. Really, in his inner monologue to himself, he considers himself, "Clark" (or "Clark Kent"). He is not "Superman" or even "Kal-El". He is "Clark". A country boy raised by good parents who respects his fellow men and does not impose his own will or law on them. He is something to strive for. A role-model. Sometimes, even with someone with his powers, it is very hard to respect others as he does and that is part of the character. A guy that wants to be a guy, but can't.
Admittedly, he can be hard to write for, but when someone writes him well, he "sings".
And really, like I said, I really enjoy him and appreciate him, and I am more into "anti-heroes" (I think you also stated as such, too).
To me, he is in a different class of character and I have room for all varieties.
RE: Favorite Comic hero? - Uther - 07-07-2013
(07-07-2013, 06:24 AM)Black Wrote: I am going to take a different approach from what many people that reply to you said and assume you won't pick up these issues (or the recent animated DVD movies that are based on them) and just answer you...although this is my perspective.
To me, Superman isn't a favorite/favorite, but he is still pretty high on the list of characters I like.
I come at him from a different angle (and some of this is covered under All-Star Superman series).
Superman is basically a man, with the powers of a god, that wants to be a normal man. Since he can't be that, he takes up the responsibility to use his powers for the greater good of mankind and doesn't impose himself on others.
There is a common failing in many folks and the saying of, "Power corrupts...." and that is not true with Superman. He is a role model of non-corruption, or tries to be. He is not always perfect, but tows the line and doesn't let his power color his view of himself. Really, in his inner monologue to himself, he considers himself, "Clark" (or "Clark Kent"). He is not "Superman" or even "Kal-El". He is "Clark". A country boy raised by good parents who respects his fellow men and does not impose his own will or law on them. He is something to strive for. A role-model. Sometimes, even with someone with his powers, it is very hard to respect others as he does and that is part of the character. A guy that wants to be a guy, but can't.
Admittedly, he can be hard to write for, but when someone writes him well, he "sings".
And really, like I said, I really enjoy him and appreciate him, and I am more into "anti-heroes" (I think you also stated as such, too).
To me, he is in a different class of character and I have room for all varieties.
Yeah, that's a pretty good explanation right there. I love Superman.
With Great Power... - Shuck - 07-07-2013
(07-07-2013, 06:35 AM)Uther Wrote: Yeah, that's a pretty good explanation right there. I love Superman.
FINALLY! I have someone to argue about Superman with!
Ok. So. Counterpoint on Superman:
Even when he's written "well", there's something about this character that irks the crap out of me. Mostly in that he's named himself the absolute arbiter of justice. Everywhere. Forever. With no attention paid to whatever personal shortcomings he's got.
To say his power simply doesn't color his perceptions of the world is a massive oversight. Every day, Superman picks and chooses who he does, and does not save. A man who could be just about everywhere at once, and he'll skip right over you if he feels like it. Sure, he's made it a point to stop a sad girl from jumping off a building. But how many people in Metropolis were murdered in range of his super-hearing at that moment? He catches a plane, but makes no effort to say...keep that security guard facing down Lex Luthor's secret Spec Ops crew from getting gunned down and dissolved in super-acid later.
Perhaps my biggest issue with Superman is that he's reactive, rather than proactive. He doesn't really prevent these disasters from happening. He just handicaps our ability to handle them by swooping in and doing it all for us. Superman's actions show something that writers never out and out say: He doesn't trust us for shit. He's gonna tell us what's right. He's gonna tell us who gets to be saved, and who doesn't. He's gonna tell us when we need him, and when we don't.
Honestly, I find myself in the same boat as Mr. Luthor. I look at him, and I think "Who asked you?"
And, now a segway into thoughts on Rorschach, 'cause he poses a question I think we should all ask about Superman (And Batman, frankly):
Rorschach asks the audience, quite plainly, if we really want someone with an unwavering moral compass. Someone who doesn't see grey. Someone who decides that they know better than anyone around them.
Rorschach, like Superman, forges on without turning any of his thoughts inward, and it destroys countless lives. Did the child murderer he butchered deserve to be punished? Sure, but nobody deserves to be hacked to bits by a madman in possibly the coolest mask ever. This is the road that heroes like Superman and Batman are on. Particularly the former. Superman can get away with just about anything. The fact that he hasn't yet is pretty much just luck. After all, he has a human psyche. He doesn't have a super-strong sense of identity, or an unending reserve of mental resilience. He can't choose not to be scarred by trauma without diving into a world of utter fantasy. He's well beyond genius-level as far as intellect is concerned, but that comes with it's own set of issues, not the least of which would be his ability to actually relate to the people he's trying to protect.
And we see these same sorts of things come back and bite Rorschach in every way possible. He's a smart guy, and his ability to recall events and bridge logical gaps just means that his trauma and stresses dig that much deeper. His moral compass is unwavering, but that leaves him unable to adapt to a changing world. He's named himself the absolute authority on right and wrong, and that makes him a monster.
You guys. Guys. Seriously. I am so happy to argue about comic characters right now.
RE: Favorite Comic hero? - Black - 07-08-2013
(07-07-2013, 10:40 PM)Shuck Wrote:(07-07-2013, 06:35 AM)Uther Wrote: Yeah, that's a pretty good explanation right there. I love Superman.
FINALLY! I have someone to argue about Superman with!
Ok. So. Counterpoint on Superman:
Even when he's written "well", there's something about this character that irks the crap out of me. Mostly in that he's named himself the absolute arbiter of justice. Everywhere. Forever. With no attention paid to whatever personal shortcomings he's got.
To say his power simply doesn't color his perceptions of the world is a massive oversight. Every day, Superman picks and chooses who he does, and does not save. A man who could be just about everywhere at once, and he'll skip right over you if he feels like it. Sure, he's made it a point to stop a sad girl from jumping off a building. But how many people in Metropolis were murdered in range of his super-hearing at that moment? He catches a plane, but makes no effort to say...keep that security guard facing down Lex Luthor's secret Spec Ops crew from getting gunned down and dissolved in super-acid later.
Perhaps my biggest issue with Superman is that he's reactive, rather than proactive. He doesn't really prevent these disasters from happening. He just handicaps our ability to handle them by swooping in and doing it all for us. Superman's actions show something that writers never out and out say: He doesn't trust us for shit. He's gonna tell us what's right. He's gonna tell us who gets to be saved, and who doesn't. He's gonna tell us when we need him, and when we don't.
Honestly, I find myself in the same boat as Mr. Luthor. I look at him, and I think "Who asked you?"
And, now a segway into thoughts on Rorschach, 'cause he poses a question I think we should all ask about Superman (And Batman, frankly):
Rorschach asks the audience, quite plainly, if we really want someone with an unwavering moral compass. Someone who doesn't see grey. Someone who decides that they know better than anyone around them.
Rorschach, like Superman, forges on without turning any of his thoughts inward, and it destroys countless lives. Did the child murderer he butchered deserve to be punished? Sure, but nobody deserves to be hacked to bits by a madman in possibly the coolest mask ever. This is the road that heroes like Superman and Batman are on. Particularly the former. Superman can get away with just about anything. The fact that he hasn't yet is pretty much just luck. After all, he has a human psyche. He doesn't have a super-strong sense of identity, or an unending reserve of mental resilience. He can't choose not to be scarred by trauma without diving into a world of utter fantasy. He's well beyond genius-level as far as intellect is concerned, but that comes with it's own set of issues, not the least of which would be his ability to actually relate to the people he's trying to protect.
And we see these same sorts of things come back and bite Rorschach in every way possible. He's a smart guy, and his ability to recall events and bridge logical gaps just means that his trauma and stresses dig that much deeper. His moral compass is unwavering, but that leaves him unable to adapt to a changing world. He's named himself the absolute authority on right and wrong, and that makes him a monster.
You guys. Guys. Seriously. I am so happy to argue about comic characters right now.
:sigh:
While some messages have gone a bit off-topic, this is a thread about "elevating" favorites, not pointing out flaws or denigrating one's you may not like.
Sometimes it is a personal choice what one likes or does not like. I may pick apart your post, but this needs to be in another thread on its own (IMO). It should not be here, where people named their favorites and someone asked *why* do some people favor Superman.
RE: With Great Power... - Ryanti - 07-08-2013
I'm not really that geeky about super heroes. Not as much as other people are. But I'll put in my brief two cents.
In today's time, people are more focused on depth and gray morality when it comes to super heroes. They want to see open flaws that are easy to spot, or.. challenges that heroes overcome.
Superman was the first super hero ever made. In the time he was made, everything when it came to entertainment for young children was over the top. Superman is what he is. Super. He is a higher being then a human, being an alien, which at the time was a plot device designed to allow Superman be better then a person for not being human in the first place... so therefore, he is Super.
When you deal with Superman, beyond the tons and tons of Kripton/alien/scientific lore that he has now, he is the most traditional superhero. Therefore, when it comes to his personality and his demeanor, he is rather, well.. traditional.
Superman is very good at defining the ideal image of a super being. It's just going out of style nowadays because people desire more complicated heroes whom are neither not super, or.. not heroes, or.. struggling to deal with the issues of being a hero.
Superman is more of a person that people are supposed to look up to rather than relate to. That's how he was designed as a character, and it is pretty much what he represents. He's idealistic.
Some people believe he's one dimensional. But if you're a real comic book nerd and look things up and such, Superman himself is rather an intriguing character. He's just a little bit harder to appreciate then other heroes, because we see this big one dimensional aura about him after being exposed to all these other heroes.
I remember people saying the same thing about Captain America in the Avengers movie. I think it was just, once again, because he was the traditional one.
I like Superman because he reminds me of back in the day when things were more straightforward, and he's sort of a person who's.. mannerisms are quite literally super. A God among men. It pulls at the child in me that just says "You know what, I just want to see a person made out of the epitome of awesome beat the living shit out of bad guys."
RE: With Great Power... - Ashren Dotharl - 07-08-2013
Firstly...
![[Image: ka9LdSo.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/ka9LdSo.jpg)
Then secondly...
![[Image: IGHvBwl.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/IGHvBwl.jpg)
and finally...
![[Image: SU9J336.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/SU9J336.jpg)
Super Dickery...
RE: With Great Power... - Ellie - 07-08-2013
(07-08-2013, 05:40 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: Firstly...
Then secondly...
and finally...
Super Dickery...
O________O
RE: With Great Power... - D R E N - 07-08-2013
(07-08-2013, 05:40 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: Firstly...
Then secondly...
and finally...
Super Dickery...
Superman, you're a monster!
RE: With Great Power... - Skyborn - 07-08-2013
Ryanti, I agree on every point. Superman is usually the first person anyone thinks of when you mention the term 'superhero'. His powers are admittedly over the top, but they're there to help paint the picture. Superman is more than human. He's something to strive to be. He's good, he's kind, he's selfless, he's a protector...things that, back in the day when he was made, was something that inspired awe in folks. And in today's day and age gives us something to look up to. A symbol of what we could do and be if we just tried. I'm not talking about the super powers (though that would be killer. Do a good deed, get super speed), but what he accomplishes. It's a big metaphor. It's hard to relate to a God among men, but you can look up to one. Uther has it right, though, Superman Earth 1 makes him more of a relatable, Human feeling character. (I personally love Earth 1. Makes Superman more of a believable Hero. Not 6'5'' and massively bulky despite being an awkward nerd in glasses. He's like...5'10" and could arguably hide his muscle tone under the cardigan and button down he wears)
I like Superman (and Captain America) because he is that traditional Superhero. Doing good. Righting wrongs. Standing for positive morals. It's something that gets lost in comics these days when it's popular to make things racier and edgier.
Er...I mean...kupo!
RE: With Great Power... - Ashren Dotharl - 07-08-2013
![[Image: HlG3Ngj.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/HlG3Ngj.jpg)
*just... leaves this here for folks...*
RE: With Great Power... - Kyatai - 07-08-2013
(07-08-2013, 11:28 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote:Is scarred. For Life.
*just... leaves this here for folks...*
RE: With Great Power... - Shuck - 07-08-2013
(07-08-2013, 04:17 AM)Black Wrote: :sigh:
While some messages have gone a bit off-topic, this is a thread about "elevating" favorites, not pointing out flaws or denigrating one's you may not like.
Sometimes it is a personal choice what one likes or does not like. I may pick apart your post, but this needs to be in another thread on its own (IMO). It should not be here, where people named their favorites and someone asked *why* do some people favor Superman.
What? Are you kidding me right now? You can't handle a discussion on why/why not as the natural evolution of a conversation? It's not like there was even any back-and-forth on the matter, we just stated our opinions one way or the other, and I'm quite sure everyone was prepared to move on.
I sincerely can't even fathom the kind of mindset where you can make up denigration in a post that borrows actual events from the comic character in question. That's not unfair criticism! That's an example! You've even used the wrong accusation in your made-up complaint.
It's like you honestly believe that being disagreed with makes you some kind of victim, deserving of special treatment. It doesn't. It means that someone disagrees with you, and eventually (maybe not here, maybe not in the next internet clubhouse any one of us signs up to), you're gonna have to learn to deal with it.
Christ on a cracker.
On topic (OH NO, HERE COMES SOME MORE DISAGREEMENT! HUDDLE IN YOUR SHELTERS!):
Skyborn Wrote:I like Superman (and Captain America) because he is that traditional Superhero. Doing good. Righting wrongs. Standing for positive morals. It's something that gets lost in comics these days when it's popular to make things racier and edgier.
There's a problem with this comparison. Steve Rogers (the original Captain America) was a soldier. He didn't claim that he always knew what was right and wrong, and he in fact didn't have the ability to enforce his personal viewpoint everywhere on the globe, at once. Rogers had things he believed were right, and he tried to keep himself and those around him on the right track.
He didn't always succeed. And that's a crazy-important differentiation.
Superman could be likened to a tyrant. His power is absolute. Therefore, his will in any matter he involves himself in is absolute. What he considers right? Well, not everybody would agree, but that's too bad, because he is the Sun God, and you will obey him, or he'll ruin your shit in ways you can't even imagine.
Let's take, for example, his adherence to Truth and Justice. Already, he's a hypocrite on the first count. His life is a lie. Like...actually a lie. It's bullshit, he's not Clark Kent, a normal motherfucker like you and me. He's Superman. He doesn't need to go to work. He doesn't really need to do anything, but just be who he is. If he's willing to impose that double-standard, what else might he be a hair's width away from doing?
Them's prospects I do not like.
RE: With Great Power... - Uther - 07-08-2013
I hope you're all not genuinely suggesting that we keep using this thread if we want to discuss Superman, as not to offend people.
It's Superman. If you're past the age of six and you get offended when people trash talk Superman, you've got a problem.
I'll be on the old thread, discussing Superman if anyone needs me.