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+--- Thread: Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought (/showthread.php?tid=2860)
Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought - Eva - 07-16-2013
We would like to hear what you've heard of Crystalline - all the good and the bad. We are considering making some adjustments, particularly if there are things that we are doing that are being interpreted in ways that we do not intend. We invite you to share your honest feedback about your experiences with our group or what you may have heard about us. Thank you!
RE: Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought - Nox - 07-16-2013
I'm about to say something that is of absolutely no help. I have heard nothing about Crystalline at all. Nothing bad, nothing good. I've read your linkshell page though, and thought that the ideas were interesting. I like that you put a hold on recruiting until you have all your ideas ironed out. I respect that. I could see, if you choose to keep the charity side, X'sato finding an interest in allying with y'all. But that breaks away from the topic at hand. To answer your question, while simultaneously being absolutely no help, I've heard nothing of your Linkshell. I'm new to the community, so I haven't had experiences with the LS. Sooooooooo yeah. Sorry to be of no help whatsoever.
RE: Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought - Eva - 07-16-2013
This is actually somewhat helpful X'sato, thank you for the comment. Â
I suppose I probably could have elaborated a bit more since I imagine a lot of folks newer to the RPC (particularly after November of last year) may never have heard of us.  While we've been around since 1.0 launch in some form or another, we're not actively recruiting so we haven't felt much need to bump our thread (although I did earlier today because certain wheels are now being set into motion and I wanted to give a kind of timeframe for those who have been patient with us so far).  Other than that, it's made little sense to advertise ourselves since we're not actively recruiting, nor have we figured out our structure in-character or anything.  But I'm glad you looked up our Crystalline community thread here on the RPC.  There is more information there that details what exactly we're all about, if that helps.
We have set some of our forums up to be available to the public and we've heard from a number of folks so far who have shown interest, offered encouragement, or just wanted to spitball some ideas with us.  Despite our current - and let me stress temporary - closed-door recruitment policy, we're hoping to be a very active and open part of the RP community on Balmung - er, once we're officially founded in character.
For now it's just kind of a fun and wild ride between Point A and a sort of amorphous Point B.Â
RE: Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought - ArmachiA - 07-16-2013
I've heard a few things OOcly but nothing criticizing the guild ICly, if that's whats your asking.
If you mean OOCly, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with stating what has been said and what has been said to me because I don't want that negatively effecting me or my guild. I know you say it wouldn't, but I feel if I said anything there would be a negative slant whenever you looked in me and mines direction if I did.
One more edit for good measure: It's no one in my guild saying anything, just want to make that clear. XD
RE: Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought - Ellion Goto - 07-16-2013
Honestly I don't really expect you to get very much feedback at the moment since the game hasn't launched yet and you folks are really secluded. I could be wrong, but that is my impression unless it's just feedback from the guild's "presence" on the forums.
RE: Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought - FreelanceWizard - 07-16-2013
IMPORTANT EDIT: This post doesn't make a lot of sense without the context of the original post (which is located in a spoiler tag further down on this thread).
First off, I want to say that I really don't know anything about the LS, other than I seem to recall its existence from way back in 1.x before I drifted away from this site. Personally, I have no information about the guild and no real experiences with members of it, so I have no negative inclination towards it or its members starting out. In fact, I start with a positive inclination towards all RP groups because, hey, other RPers are usually good people and I like to assume the best about people unless proven wrong.
So, when I say anything here, I want you to know that I'm trying to offer an objective critique from a "new player" who's also done the guild leader and officer thing a few times in a few different games. I'm emphatically not trying to shake up a can of drama nitroglycerin and hit it with a blowtorch.
With that disclaimer out of the way, let me suggest a few things that might be giving people impressions you don't want. First, your LS contains most of the leadership of this site. That makes sense to me, as it seems like your LS is basically the "survivors" of 1.x who came together out of friendship when the RP community (and the game's population itself) imploded. However, to some, it might seem like a clique of the "old guard." That perception may be amplified when you consider that your recruitment is closed and there's little indication on your page of when it'll open again. You do say it's temporary, but temporary can be a very long time. Those susceptible to crying "Conspiracy!" might ascribe ulterior motives to that and, by proxy, to this site and potentially Balmungians in general.
Second, in a similar vein, a guild that says it's open to RP with everyone and wants to play a role in the larger guild and RP community but that also closes its recruitment might appear a bit hypocritical. This is due to the entirely logical propensity for guilds to RP internally more than they do externally. "If you want to interact with people so much, why are you closing yourselves off?" some might ask.
Finally, threads like this come off as defensive and as "traps." It's a bit like when a teacher says he'll turn around and let the guilty party step forward to return what they stole, then whips around and yells, "J'accuse!" at the thief. I've personally been part of a guild that did a similar thing on their forums -- asking the players what they thought was going wrong -- and then pointed to the thread in the officers' forum as a list of "internal enemies" of the guild. (Yes, this really happened; yes, I was an officer of this guild and had an alliance with it in the guild I ran; yes, that precipitated the end of the alliance between those guilds, in addition to causing a nuclear drama blast.)
This last reason is why I was quite reluctant to post anything on this thread and, when I did, why I put the big disclaimer in the second paragraph. I share ArmachiA's fear of receiving retribution for offering some honest feedback. Even as I type this, I'm concerned that someone's going to look at it and say, "AHA! FreelanceWizard is the guilty one! He's been stabbing us in the back this whole time and is foolish enough to admit it in public! Prepare the pitchforks and torches!" I obviously don't think that's the case or I wouldn't say anything at all (hey, I play political LARPs, I know how to keep my mouth shut
).I guess my "tl;dr" point here is that I think there's a few things at play here that may, to some, engender negative perceptions about your guild and its members. Obviously, that will always be the case with some people, no matter how hard you try to fight it; I can cite innumerable examples of that. The worst thing is that it doesn't seem like there's much you can do to address some of the key drivers of that perception, so I guess the only advice I can offer is to ignore it. TBH, as a GL, your perception of what other people think about your guild will always be inflated out of proportion to what it really is.
RE: Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought - Ellion Goto - 07-16-2013
(07-16-2013, 10:23 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Snip
Perfectly represents my impressions from what I've seen thus far. Very well said. I don't wanna say too much as we've been involved in some heated deals in the past and are looking for a quieter comeback this time around. Though ArmachiA has trouble with this.
RE: Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought - ArmachiA - 07-16-2013
^ Hell yes I do.
Okay, so Freelance just said everything I've been hearing so... I guess I'll just talk about it.
For reference, I'm a big mouth, I'm a huge defender of "the noobs" coming to the RPC and RPing and being welcomed into the fold. You've probably seen me fight about it on the Beta forums, on HERE, and I have questioned it in the only leaders meeting I've been to. I have a problem with not shutting up when I have concerns. Because of this, I've heard from people on the Beta forums, on here, and off site about Crystalline being utterly and completely exclusionary, and by extension the RPC being the same way (One person joked that the RPC was really just "Crystalline forums 2.0.")
(Disclaimer: This doesn't mean anyone in Crystalline is not a big defender of "the noobs", I'm just explaining why I have a wealth of info
)One person told me to just give up on anyone in Crystalline being welcoming to noobs, they don't want anyone new playing with their ball (I heard this about specific members too from different people, but I won't say who, cuz that's getting mean :/).
I've heard many people saying they are interested in the Crystalline story (yay) but the fact they are closed off (Even for good reason) is completely unacceptable. Some even feel hurt about it.
Okay none of that above is my opinion. That's just what I've heard. MY opinion boils down to this
~ The Night Blades also won't exist till launch but we found ways to recruit and make new people feel welcome. So... I don't think that's a good excuse. Sorry. I'm personally not gonna judge ya for closing off recruitment or whatever, I just think "It's because it won't exist till launch!" it a thin and floppy excuse. (That's really my only negative-ish thing to say)
~ I think the fact a lot of mods (not all, but a lot) and popular members are from Crystalline that kinda helps with this "We don't like you" reputation. Everyone see's Crystalline as the top dog LS because of it. "They control the RPC! They only know each other! They aren't recruiting, QED the RPC hates us all" etc etc etc
Also pretty much everything Freelance said.
RE: Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought - Naunet - 07-16-2013
(07-16-2013, 10:50 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: Because of this, I've heard from people on the Beta forums, on here, and off site about Crystalline being utterly and completely exclusionary, and by extension the RPC being the same way (One person joked that the RPC was really just "Crystalline forums 2.0.")A bit off-topic, but I can't help but be reminded of a situation I experienced while managing a roleplay forum for my old WoW server. There was a... very large and incredibly involved fiasco, and one of the accusations hurled at the admin team (myself included) was that we were biased in our moderation because two of the three admins were part of the same guild, and I was part of a guild that was friends with that guild. Needless to say, the accusations were complete bullcrap.
I'm not quite sure what my point is here. Perhaps it's just to caution against perceptions of bias in leadership just because said leaders happen to be a part of the same external organization. I don't really know anything about these people or whatever has gone on, so I'm totally just basing this off my own experiences, but... There it is. Whatever it is. I'm not sure.
I think I'm just rambling now. *shuts up*
RE: Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought - Monogatari - 07-16-2013
I'm very new, and Crystalline's one of the LS'es I'm interested in because everyone I've met from the LS is really friendly. I can understand the issues some people have about the current closed recruitment, but as the game hasn't launched yet, I don't have any. I've poked around the Enjin site and people seem to have thought out their characters and developed them quite well.
I can also understand the insular thing. With any group of people, it becomes easier to RP with those you know than those you don't, but as I mentioned, everyone who I've met from Crystalline is really friendly, and I've RP'ed with a couple of your members. I look forward to more of it in the future!
RE: Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought - ArmachiA - 07-16-2013
(07-16-2013, 11:15 PM)Naunet Wrote:(07-16-2013, 10:50 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: Because of this, I've heard from people on the Beta forums, on here, and off site about Crystalline being utterly and completely exclusionary, and by extension the RPC being the same way (One person joked that the RPC was really just "Crystalline forums 2.0.")A bit off-topic, but I can't help but be reminded of a situation I experienced while managing a roleplay forum for my old WoW server. There was a... very large and incredibly involved fiasco, and one of the accusations hurled at the admin team (myself included) was that we were biased in our moderation because two of the three admins were part of the same guild, and I was part of a guild that was friends with that guild. Needless to say, the accusations were complete bullcrap.
I'm not quite sure what my point is here. Perhaps it's just to caution against perceptions of bias in leadership just because said leaders happen to be a part of the same external organization. I don't really know anything about these people or whatever has gone on, so I'm totally just basing this off my own experiences, but... There it is. Whatever it is. I'm not sure.
I think I'm just rambling now. *shuts up*
But the perception is there, is all that I was putting out there. It is in like 99 percent of all cases, a totally unfounded perception, but the perception easily comes up if it even looks like one guild seems to be modding a bunch of other guilds. Hell, I even remember back in 1.0 Kylin didn't even want to announce what guild he was going to for fear of that perception.
RE: Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought - Alothia - 07-17-2013
FreelanceWizard Wrote:Finally, threads like this come off as defensive and as "traps." It's a bit like when a teacher says he'll turn around and let the guilty party step forward to return what they stole, then whips around and yells, "J'accuse!" at the thief.
I wish we could be more open around here, but I do know that people sometimes don't feel comfortable sharing their feelings. If anyone wants to post something without your name, just let me know and I'll be happy to compile them, if that's okay with Eva.
That being said, I don't know that a lot of people have problems with the group as a whole. I think a lot of the problems could be stemming from a perceived notion of a few people and how they act. (perhaps?) This sort of activity has been seen in public channels (so I've heard), and I don't think that it's helping things.
Personally, I've never had a bad experience in game with any of you guys. I have enjoyed the little bits of RP that I've had with your members, from the Mavanix downfall to the bachelorette party for Nel. I think that being more open helps people to see this about you, however. I understand that you guys aren't established yet, but you do have a core group of people. What harm would come from adding more people to your roster, but having them wait until you guys are established ICly to actually let them in, as it were? I think that would come a long way to dispelling any notion that you guys are being closed off.
Also, to those people who think that Crystalline runs the RPC, let me tell you that Kylin and Ellie are a part of Crystalline, while Merri, Xenedra, and myself are not. We are the moderation team of the RPC. Please do not think that we don't have checks and balances here. Trust me when I say that there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes to ensure that everyone here has a voice and can be heard in a fair manner.
RE: Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought - FreelanceWizard - 07-17-2013
Sadly -- and now this is getting totally tangential
-- there's no way to avoid the perception of conflicts of interest in this sort of thing. Back on CoH, the admin of the Virtueverse wiki wouldn't disclose anything about himself to avoid the perception of CoI, and several other admins used aliases on the wiki to avoid the perception of bias. Way back on Firiona Vie, the forum owners were extremely careful to select mods who were from different guilds, who were not in any guild, and some who didn't even play the game any more to remove the perception of CoI.Naturally, perceptions of CoI were not eliminated in any of these instances. (In fact, in the case of the Virtueverse, they got worse because people assumed there must be a conspiracy if people are keeping their identities private.)
There's one other thing I want to say, just to make it totally clear in case anyone didn't catch it the first time: I absolutely don't have any quarrel with Crystalline or its members. They all seem like very nice people.
Nor do I hold any contempt for the admin team of the RPC site. However, advice was requested by a guild, and so I replied with what I think may be rubbing people the wrong way based on my experiences as a GL. Please don't assume that I'm grinding an axe against either group, because I'm not.
RE: Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought - ArmachiA - 07-17-2013
(07-17-2013, 12:14 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: There's one other thing I want to say, just to make it totally clear in case anyone didn't catch it the first time: I absolutely don't have any quarrel with Crystalline or its members. They all seem like very nice people.
Here as well. I have no issue with anyone and I haven't even interacted with anyone to form an opinion more than what I just said. IN FACT, I may just join their forums [if I'm allowed] so I can form a better opinion on the group as a whole and maybe come back to this topic at a later date. I would surely be interested in seeing their RP style at the very least.
RE: Perspectives of Crystalline LS - Honest Feedback Sought - Eva - 07-17-2013
I appreciate all of the feedback so far, and thank you for sharing. Â There are a lot of points here I'd like to address, so I apologize if I don't manage to touch upon everything said, but I'll be glad to clarify anything further if it's needed.
I would imagine most of the comments that are being made are being made OOCly or refer to that aspect of the guild and/or its members. Â As there's not yet much of a guild to speak of so much as 'the idea of a guild' it's tough to legitimately point the finger at something like that and say 'good', 'bad', or otherwise. Â So I understand a lot of the feedback may stem from OOC reactions to forum posts, or some of our members' participation along the various avenues of chat.
I can also understand wanting to preserve anonymity with regard to who may be spreading certain things about us. Â This would certainly not be the first time that someone has taken something said by one/some of our members and either split it from context or outright distorted it with the perceived intent of making us look bad. Â Most who know me well enough will attest that I'm not one who is prone to flying off the handle about things, and I wouldn't have asked for honest feedback if I wasn't prepared to hear what had to be said. Â I'm not looking to point fingers or make accusations. Â Being that I'm feeling somewhat villainized myself of late, I have no desire to pass that buck along to anyone else. Â I would however like to clarify what is truth and what may have been fabricated somewhere along the lines. Â I'm not perfect, and neither are our members. Â We have our own internal issues that we deal with on a more regular basis than I'd like - and I feel a lot of this stems from the fact that we are a high-immersion guild that has been stuck in a state of OOC for a rather extended period of time. Â For those of us who are devoted to this game and to preserving character, that is a rather daunting thing and the past several months have been pretty tough on some of our members, and there has been friction - and I'm sure some of that has at times spilled out into more public channels.
I do find it a little surprising that there is some perception that Crystalline "owns" the RPC. Â I admit this was a concern of ours awhile back and a large part of the reason I stepped down as one of the forum moderators. Â I also wanted to focus more on developing the guild and had some personal matters going on at that time as well, and I'm still happy with that decision. Â As has been mentioned, Kylin and Ellie are both members of Crystalline and moderators here. Â Kylin can attest to the fact that I disagree with him regularly and would manage things with the RPC differently if I had the patience and tenacity that he possesses in his own management methods. Â I tend to look at Kylin the LS member as being separate from Kylin the RPC mod. Â We have an odd relationship like that, and we can disagree regularly and still respect each other in spite of those disagreements. Â But really I think the moderators chosen were selected not for being a part of one community or another, but rather for exhibiting calm and cool reactions in the face of some rather unpleasant situations. Â But you are correct - there is that perception of favoritism when a number of people from one group are in moderator positions. Â All I can really say is that there is no "power" being wielded, unless locking threads which are inflammatory is considered such - and most of the time I think almost all of us can agree with their decisions, when that happens.
Regarding the temporary block on recruitment, I do maintain that this is what's best to ensure the health of our community given what we are trying to do with it in-character. Â Towards the end of 1.0 we had a slight rise in membership and it is important to us that each pearl issued to a new member have a fitting reason attached to it. Â We're not a guild that hands them out willy-nilly - not that there is anything wrong with that. Â We are different, according to our stated purpose in 1.0 and transitioning that to our new purpose in ARR is proving to be a challenge. Â We have found some creative ways to introduce a few people in "under the radar" as it were, however after a certain point it goes against the goals of the community to allow a handful of people in when there isn't some sort of in-character mechanism in place for that. Â I don't expect this to be understood by all RPers, but it is an immersion thing and we do want all our members to be relatively comfortable with each other. Â Where we're at right now, we have a handful of members who joined up from various places who haven't had much time to interact in-character with the group from 1.0. Â This has always been intended to be a very gradual process of integrating new members. Â I've been doing this for a very long time and problems seem to crop up in some groups where too many new members are taken on too quickly without being given a suitable amount of time to integrate and feel the guild's style.
With regards to how long the recruitment status will be kept "temporarily closed", I bumped the LS thread just earlier today to indicate we're on goal with having doors open for potential new members sometime around mid-to-late August. Â I can't give an exact date because the events in RP govern this but I will bump the thread again when that happens. Â Even then, I think we'll be looking to keep our influx to a steady trickle. Â A poll of our members was conducted some time back and this has been generally agreed upon as the best policy for us.
I realize this may give certain perceptions which I really can't help. Â All I can say is that it's the nature of the beast. Â "Insular" and "Reclusive" are words I've heard spoken. Â Many of our members are pretty active on the forums and Skype channels - many will be joining multiple RPLS's to broaden their characters' horizons. Â This is not being discouraged. Â Most of us are looking forward to creating and hosting events. Â While I've admired the beta events posted that I've seen so far, it has been difficult for me as I've been wanting to create, schedule, and host similar such events but not being able to due to these temporary restrictions, however I still think it's for the best in order to preserve the essence of what Crystalline is and what it will become. Â I look at us as a horse that is going to be a bit late coming out of the gate, but one that runs strong. Â Of course now I'm sure someone will look at that metaphor and think we're competitive rather than collaborative. Â So instead, I look at us as a horse that is going to be a little late coming out of the gate, but one that runs strong so that he can join the other horses for tea and crumpets at the big horse table!
I guess I also don't really see us as a top dog LS for that reason. Â I think there's bigger groups now, and certainly those who are more clearly defined. Â I suppose we've been around for awhile and we've had a lot of good memories, but we were open to new members back in 1.0 and will be looking forward to welcoming more new faces again in ARR to join us in our adventures. Â We have some event ideas in store that we'd like to include the bigger community in. Â We're really excited about a lot of this stuff. Â So I guess I'm just a little taken back when I hear some of the more negative comments that have been stamped upon us.
All I can say is where I'm coming from with it. Â If you're not comfortable posting though, please feel free to take Alothia's advice and send her a PM to her to have a question or comment posted anonymously. Â I have no qualms about that. Â Or I invite you to send me a PM if you'd prefer not to post. Â I'm always glad to talk about the LS or RP in general.
Thank you for all the comments and constructive criticisms so far. Â I really do appreciate it. Â
Footnote: Â Please feel welcome to visit our forums! Â We have separate designations for prospective members and a category designed just for visitors from other guilds who have no intentions of joining but just want to hang out on our forums and gab. Â Most of the relevent forums are open to discussion. Â I just need a PM to tag you into the appropriate group. Â More information about that may be found HERE.