(08-28-2013, 11:49 AM)Vinter Wrote: That brings up an interesting question. How do you think the familial relations look among the miqo'te?
They're not exactly monogamous creatures, and according to the lore the rites and rituals regarding who can and cannot be a Nunh is to ensure that the offspring are of the finest stock. That seems very detached and practical. It doesn't sound like love ever enters into it. Not romantic love anyway.

Could it be that since the Nunh is just a breeding male, he is expected to sire many children, and thus would be too busy to take part in raising any of them? And so, perhaps strong familial bonds would only exist between the mother and the child, and not the father and the child.

(08-28-2013, 11:49 AM)Vinter Wrote:

(08-28-2013, 09:55 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: "Why is this random miqo'te making insinuations about the heritage of my mother, and suggesting that she's a prostitute?"

That brings up an interesting question. How do you think the familial relations look among the miqo'te?
They're not exactly monogamous creatures, and according to the lore the rites and rituals regarding who can and cannot be a Nunh is to ensure that the offspring are of the finest stock. That seems very detached and practical. It doesn't sound like love ever enters into it. Not romantic love anyway.

Could it be that since the Nunh is just a breeding male, he is expected to sire many children, and thus would be too busy to take part in raising any of them? And so, perhaps strong familial bonds would only exist between the mother and the child, and not the father and the child.

(08-28-2013, 12:30 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: So... we do get to see a tribal miqo'te group in game, and their approach to breeding does seem to be fairly practical (there's a strong implication via NPC dialogue that the hunter females plan their "couplings" with the nunh). When you consider that the intended goal of the cultural construct is to create the strongest, most adapted offspring, I suspect romance doesn't play a huge role. Then again, since the nunh is the strongest, most adept male of the tribe and has proven such through battle, it'd be to them like getting to bed a rock star while at the same time doing a great service to your tribe. It may not be romantic in a Western (or city-state culture) sense, but to the miqo'te, it may serve a similar cultural purpose.

(08-29-2013, 02:41 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: in the opinion of my character regarding his tribe, tribe -is- family. There exists different families within that tribe of course if it's large enough but he feels the tribe is a large family of its own. He's also very dedicated in caring for those under his wing, much like how an Alpha male would. (Nunh can be largely compared to those, except they do not tend to be -the- actual leaders)

The reason they survive and stand as strong as they do is because they stand together. The Tribe is a place of family and friends for him, a place where you can trust and someone can get the helping hand he might need now and then without being exploited for it, without expecting something in return.

Thus he may be close with many in the Tribe, but especially caring of those under his wing. I would say it depends what kind of Nunh you have, the title at face value might be very..practical, but a Nunh can make it more emotionally invested as well. In doing so he's likely to gain more too, as his females might be more loyal.

(08-29-2013, 04:34 AM)C Wrote:

(08-28-2013, 12:30 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: So... we do get to see a tribal miqo'te group in game, and their approach to breeding does seem to be fairly practical (there's a strong implication via NPC dialogue that the hunter females plan their "couplings" with the nunh). When you consider that the intended goal of the cultural construct is to create the strongest, most adapted offspring, I suspect romance doesn't play a huge role. Then again, since the nunh is the strongest, most adept male of the tribe and has proven such through battle, it'd be to them like getting to bed a rock star while at the same time doing a great service to your tribe. It may not be romantic in a Western (or city-state culture) sense, but to the miqo'te, it may serve a similar cultural purpose.

The strongest, most adept male of the tribe may still not be that impressive given that tribal miqo'te women seem to be much stronger, more capable warriors. Instead of to a rock star, I'd liken it more to a Roman noblewoman taking an accomplished gladiator to bed. He may be the best within his caste, but she's still his better. Plus, in Forgotten Springs, you see the miqo'te there talking about how the "Nuhn is a sop who is slacking in his duties," suggesting great disregard for him. "But that -mane-" replies the other miqo'te. This tells me that the objectification of breeding males exists also and may even be more prevalent given the non-romantic, highly eugenic nature of the union.

(08-29-2013, 02:41 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: in the opinion of my character regarding his tribe, tribe -is- family. There exists different families within that tribe of course if it's large enough but he feels the tribe is a large family of its own. He's also very dedicated in caring for those under his wing, much like how an Alpha male would. (Nunh can be largely compared to those, except they do not tend to be -the- actual leaders)

The reason they survive and stand as strong as they do is because they stand together. The Tribe is a place of family and friends for him, a place where you can trust and someone can get the helping hand he might need now and then without being exploited for it, without expecting something in return.

Thus he may be close with many in the Tribe, but especially caring of those under his wing. I would say it depends what kind of Nunh you have, the title at face value might be very..practical, but a Nunh can make it more emotionally invested as well. In doing so he's likely to gain more too, as his females might be more loyal.

Again I have the same problem here in terms of mentioning loyalty. I think it is the nuhn who is loyal to the tribe, not the females who are loyal to him. If anything, the females are loyal to the tribe and never to the nuhn. In my opinion, loyalty to a demagogue nuhn over the tribe is an aberration, not the norm; it's a concept I've used in my own character's history and the reason she left to roam the world.

I agree with the idea that the tribe is family, but disagree that the male takes care of the females. I think it is the females who defend and take care of the males. I also don't believe females "belong" to a single or particular nuhn. My basis for this is in the cultural convention of naming children after the siring male rather than the female -- it suggests that a single female can give birth to multiple children of different fathers. In a case where more than one nuhn exist, I expect the choice falls with her, not him.

As usual, my comments push forward my opinion that Seeker culture is matriarchal and not patriarchal, so I understand that, while -I- believe my convictions are based on solid canon and deduction, this view is not in the majority. I'm hoping to sway more of you in my direction of thought, and I hope you forgive me if my character's experiences and views on the matter do not fit with yours. Of course, I will do you the same courtesy, .

(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: I suppose I wasn't completely clear. I agree completely that females are loyal to the tribe, but there is another loyalty beside that. I'd imagine while females might find a Nuhn suitable, it would be better if that Nuhn did more than just that one "duty" as it were. I mean't "loyalty" in that regard, aka relationships of further respect and care. Family.

(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: "I think it is the females who defend and take care of the males." this is wrong. They are both strong in their own regard but it is not so that males are in need of protection like that. Perhaps it is more true of the moon tribe, as sun females tend to regard those males as rather weak.

(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: A female cannot sire with more than one Nunh either, that goes against traditions. The naming can be explained as Nunh can be cast down by Tia at any point in their lives. at that point the females would or might go for that Nunh or another they think more accepable. (as always the choice lies with them. The Nunh must make themselves a attractive and strong choice if they want any females)

(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: That all said and done, I heard that in general there are more females born than males. That might explain why these traditions exist and why you might think females do more in the protection area. They likely do join on most if not all things male do (like hunting) but I don't think, not with the sun tribe atleast, that males are in particular need of protection. It's just a tribe thing to protect all, the males do the same. especially the Nunh I imagine as it is their duty to assure offspring and good offspring.

(08-29-2013, 06:46 AM)C Wrote:

(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: I suppose I wasn't completely clear. I agree completely that females are loyal to the tribe, but there is another loyalty beside that. I'd imagine while females might find a Nuhn suitable, it would be better if that Nuhn did more than just that one "duty" as it were. I mean't "loyalty" in that regard, aka relationships of further respect and care. Family.

Ah! In this case, I agree then, .

(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: "I think it is the females who defend and take care of the males." this is wrong. They are both strong in their own regard but it is not so that males are in need of protection like that. Perhaps it is more true of the moon tribe, as sun females tend to regard those males as rather weak.

This is interesting. Can I ask for where it is stated that the Seeker females view the Keeper males as much weaker? I remember this being mentioned before, but I don't remember where or by whom.

(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: A female cannot sire with more than one Nunh either, that goes against traditions. The naming can be explained as Nunh can be cast down by Tia at any point in their lives. at that point the females would or might go for that Nunh or another they think more accepable. (as always the choice lies with them. The Nunh must make themselves a attractive and strong choice if they want any females)

Where does it say that the female cannot sire with more than one Nuhn? That is information I've never run across.

(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: That all said and done, I heard that in general there are more females born than males. That might explain why these traditions exist and why you might think females do more in the protection area. They likely do join on most if not all things male do (like hunting) but I don't think, not with the sun tribe atleast, that males are in particular need of protection. It's just a tribe thing to protect all, the males do the same. especially the Nunh I imagine as it is their duty to assure offspring and good offspring.

Here as well is information I've never come across. I'm sorry for my scepticism, but I am someone who prefers to view from the source. If true, this is intriguing enough to alter my perspective on the Seekers to accommodate for the information, but I'd need to see it stated from Square directly. If it's not too much trouble, could you cite sources for me please? I'd very much like to read!

(08-29-2013, 02:50 PM)Vinter Wrote: You both have valid points, and some not so valid points.
When it comes to whether or not the Nunh has an influential position in the tribe, that's up for debate. Their purpose in the tribe is clearly not that of a leader or any sort of authority, and I don't think they would jeopardize their position within the tribe by shirking their duties and withholding sex. Remember, they're not called Alpha males, they're called Breeding males. They're the males who have earned the right and duty to breed. I imagine it sort of like the heavy-weight champion of the world title. It doesn't mean you get to make decisions, or that you're somehow in a priveleged position, it just means you were the best at punching people in the face until they passed out.

But that doesn't make them unimportant.
And I certainly don't agree that they need protection. I think the mere existence of this caste system among males shows that the strength of the males is highly valued. If they weren't able to fend for themselves, I think few females would give them a second glance.

The naming conventions I think is just a practical way of keeping track of which kid belongs to which male. You wouldn't want any accidental inbreeding. It makes sense that a male has a lot of kids, but the females probably only have a few each. So by giving the child the name of the Nunh who sired them, it's easy to keep track of who the child's parents are.

What I do agree with though, is the notion that the females don't hold any particular loyalty to a Nunh, and I'm backing that up by the lore outlining how easy it is for a Tia to replace a Nunh by simply besting him in combat.
The Nunh would then revert to a Tia, and all of the females would now mate with the new Nunh. Surely if they were loyal to him, rather than the tribe, they wouldn't abandon him the moment he lost a fight?

However, I don't think that makes them discardable. Males are supposedly rare. I don't know where I read it but I definitely did. And since the males are key to the continuation of the species, it would make sense for them to be treated as a valuable commodity.
Even if they're not one in a million, you wouldn't want to lose your males unnecessarily. One could speculate that seeker society would have very detailed rules for how and when males could challenge and fight eachother, and strict punishments for anyone who broke the rules.
For instance, if a Nunh felt threatened by a young Tia and attacked him pre-emptively, that would probably go over as well as Frey family wedding.
I'm thinking the challenges are probably quite a ritualized affair.

(08-29-2013, 05:00 PM)Y Wrote: I've always thought of Seekers as being like prides of lions, with the dominant males still depending on the females that support him and bear his children. A Nunh in a leadership role would have twice the amount of looking over his shoulder to do, given he'd have to protect both his position as a leader and as a Nunh, so I don't see that being very desirable. Though a badass mofo of a Nunh could probably handle it, I think Tia have the advance when it comes to holding other positions of power, seeing as they don't have to worry about the duty of siring.


In Y'el's story, her father was pretty much only good for pumping out kids, and kept his position more through guile than brute strength... Something else to think about. Her retainers are with her thanks to a desperate ploy by the elders of her branch of the tribe (it's important to note I don't necessarily think the rest of the Jaguar tribe is like them; just her immediate family) to force her to stop adventuring by having two wanna-be Nunhs get her pregnant. They're still technically Tia, but were promised they'd become Nunh officially if they knock her up. The thing is they're not worthy, and would lose the title in a hot second if challenged. This is just me playing with the politics of gaining power. The elders of Y'el's family are particularly manipulative like that, given their desperation to assure their particular bloodline doesn't die out since Dalamund decimated it.


When it comes to tribes, I don't think there's really a right or wrong way to play it. What really matters is the particular branch/familial circle your character comes from. That's where you really have the freedom to do as you see fit. Some branches are going to allow their men more power, others will use them only as breeding stock while the females do all the heavy lifting. The members of the same tribe might also balk at the practices of their cousins. We have the lore as a guideline and foundation to build upon, no one has to play it exactly the same.


As for the differences in naming, I see Seekers being named after the male who sired them because a male could potentially sire a lot of children in his lifetime, so it helps to keep track of who came from who. Keepers, with their much smaller tribes and smaller number of males, instead go for taking the names of their mothers, and the numbering of males is because they're just so damn rare, so each number is its own little badge of honor regardless of the actual value. I see both as matters of practicality, not something that lends more power to either sex.

(08-30-2013, 08:02 AM)Y Wrote: I'm indeed on Balmung as Y'el Vhez, and yes, we should definitely RP, though Y'el's not one to talk much, let alone about her messed up branch of the tribe. I'm really looking forward to meeting other Miqo'te and seeing people's takes on things in play... Just as soon as logging in no longer requires me to watch TV hitting 0 until I get in the queue.