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+--- Thread: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view (/showthread.php?tid=2961)
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Maqali Qulaan - 09-06-2013
(09-06-2013, 01:39 PM)Xha Wrote: There are at least two Tia and one Nuhn NPC that you'll meet during the MQ around lol 32/33.There's also a Tia NPC involved in parts of the arcanist class story.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - XelosOne - 02-18-2014
As a practicing Genetics Counselor at a tertiary level regional high risk clinic/newborn intensive care unit at a regional medical center and fan of the Final Fantasy MMORPG series I enjoyed reading your obviously carefully thought out and well presented piece. I must respectfully disagree with you though on a couple points.Â
First a brief overview of my own credentials, and I assure you though it may appear to be so, I am not trying to play the old game of online one-upsmanship with you. My education consists of a combined PhD/MD in Microbiology and Molecular Genetics as well as a MS Degree in Nursing after my military service. My undergraduate degrees are a BSNursing and BSPsychology prior to my time in the military. I won't bore everyone with further details and impressive medical terminology they won't understand anyway. Suffice to say it is my background in genetics which informs my viewpoint on this issue.Â
Really anyone who cares to look up the mapping of the human genome and read about it for five minutes would come to the exact same conclusion.Â
It's not M Theory.
While I truly did enjoy your piece from a cultural/sociological perspective I found it lacking in pure science. I disagree completely and with good grounds with your assertions regarding the plausibility/possibility and results of interbreeding between species in the game. Very early miscarriage would be the only possible result IF (and that is one huge IF) any kind fertilization occurred, as implantation would quickly be rejected as an unrecognizable foreign object, to put it in simplest terms. I place most of the onus of the developers, however, for their misuse of the word "race" as opposed to "species" in the first place.Â
As your education would certainly inform you, the Miqo'te Seekers and Keepers are races within the same species, as are Highlander and Midlander Hyur and so forth. Grouping all the "humanoid" species of the rich world of FFXIV ARR under the misnomer of races simply because they walk about on two legs and have the same number of digits (actually I'm not positive they do--I've not counted Lala fingers and toes)Â eyes and other obvious organs goes far beyond poetic license and into the realm of outright sloppy error.Â
That said, inter-species coupling is without a doubt enjoyable and appealing. My own (genuinely) female Miqo'te character is coupled with a Hyur male, which is about as typical as relationships get in the game, and they are quite blissfully happy and equally childless. At least birth control in these couples is a complete non-issue, and depending upon the Miqo tribe, being mated "one-on-one" with a Hyur male certainly beats being female number X for many female players who find the whole harem system a bit ...off-putting.
That same system also leaves males with a choice between being seen as a "player" or basically a neuter if they choose that build and wish to stay lore friendly. Was that really necessary? I personally don't think so, so my cat-boy character has simply decided to F that ridiculous bit of lore, which is anyone's choice at any time IMO. What I cannot do is F science..
As for the the specifics, I won't even get into the breeding process among feline species here, but Hyur males are absolutely not built correctly to "get that process going". All humor aside, speaking strictly from a scientific standpoint, the donor-recipient genetic puzzle pieces simply would not fit, and no amount of rumored lore, wishful thinking or magic could make them.
That said, I would never presume to dictate to others what they do with their own characters or story lines.Â
I offer this only as factual information. What anyone does beyond that is most certainly their own choice, just as it is the choice of each man, woman or set of prospective parents as to whether or not they move forward with procreation after presented with the results of genetic testing. I can only offer them positive reinforcement for the often daunting decision to have the testing done, present the information as clearly and kindly as I can, offer them options within the confines of my practice and referrals beyond it, then let each person decide how they wish to proceed.
I do believe Square-Enix should have done their homework on this and other issues with a bit more diligence, not only for the sake of the RP community but in order to put forward the best game possible.
Thank you again for your nicely put together post. As for those who say disparaging or dismissive things along the lines of "It's a fantasy world so, like, science doesn't apply and stuff, so this is all, like, a bit much," I suspect they're less than mature players in the "let's make babies 'cause it sounds like fun!--makes me feel manly/womanly!--stakes my claim on you!" etc. stage of development, which is perfectly natural but no reason to deride someone for elevating the discourse beyond "let's play house" status.Â
Kudos to you for your efforts even though we don't see 100% eye to eye. Â *smiles*
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Tequila - 02-18-2014
[quote pid=77923 dateline=1392715537]
That same system also leaves males with a choice between being seen as a "player" or basically a neuter if they choose that build and wish to stay lore friendly. Was that really necessary? I personally don't think so, so my cat-boy character has simply decided to F that ridiculous bit of lore, which is anyone's choice at any time IMO. What I cannot do is F science..
[/quote]
Thanks for bumping this and thanks for replying. That was an endlessly interesting read -- this coming from a lamen.
The bit I highlighted is something I've been struggling with, too, since rolling a Seeker male. I liked the slitted pupils and the warmer skin tones. As you can see by his surname I also settled on "F that," and am currently brainstorming ways I can make it work lore-wise for my character. A Seeker/Keeper mix seems like the most obvious explanation, but hell.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Edgar - 02-19-2014
(02-18-2014, 11:39 PM)Tequila Wrote: The bit I highlighted is something I've been struggling with, too, since rolling a Seeker male. I liked the slitted pupils and the warmer skin tones. As you can see by his surname I also settled on "F that," and am currently brainstorming ways I can make it work lore-wise for my character. A Seeker/Keeper mix seems like the most obvious explanation, but hell.
Miqo'te raised among other races or outside tribes are known for adopting names. It could also be an alias or a nickname.
However, I'm not so sure about the Mix route in your case, as that usually involves the mixing of naming conventions to create the desired name. For instance, Edgar's birth name uses the Tribal Prefix of Seekers and the Numerical Suffix of the Keepers in combination, resulting in the name, Z'Shira'a (Z=Ziz Tribe, 'A=First Child).
If you've come up with the name on a whim, the Mixed Breed explanation may not work so well.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Faye - 02-19-2014
A very interesting and insightful read, kudos! I can understand the logic behind everything except one small detail. I don't know if anyone else has already mentioned this, but doesn't the lore state tribes can have a couple Nunh as opposed to just one? Does this mean that each tribe has a set amount of Nunhs based on its population? Or could it mean that when a Tia defeats a current Nunh, both are now Nunhs rather than the Tia taking the first Nunh's position?
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - FreelanceWizard - 02-19-2014
The rule is one nunh per territory, and a tribe can have multiple territories. A tia can become nunh by defeating the nunh of an existing territory in battle, or he can acquire new territory for the tribe and be granted the title of nunh of that territory. That's different from the tia just striking out on his own and creating a new tribe, which per lore is extremely rare.
By the by, the mixed naming convention thing on that wiki is a "fanon" construct and hasn't been confirmed by any official lore source. The devs haven't said anything about mixed clan naming conventions, at least that I've seen.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Olofantur - 02-19-2014
(02-19-2014, 01:07 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: By the by, the mixed naming convention thing on that wiki is a "fanon" construct and hasn't been confirmed by any official lore source. The devs haven't said anything about mixed clan naming conventions, at least that I've seen.
To back that up, the few cases we have of cross tribe [KeeperxSeeker] Characters in game side with one or the other [naming convention.] F'lhaminn being arguably the best example [Signs of keeper genetics, but raised with a Seeker name]
Side note, anyone else thing the ARR Goobbue bit a nice tie in with the 1.0 one? or rather, nod to it?
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Xenedra - 02-19-2014
(02-18-2014, 05:25 AM)XelosOne Wrote: As for the the specifics, I won't even get into the breeding process among feline species here, but Hyur males are absolutely not built correctly to "get that process going". All humor aside, speaking strictly from a scientific standpoint, the donor-recipient genetic puzzle pieces simply would not fit, and no amount of rumored lore, wishful thinking or magic could make them.
I enjoyed your standpoint, but it's not rumored lore, it's actual lore. Half-breeds are a canon thing.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/32685-Questions-related-to-Lore?p=490835&viewfull=1#post490835
Quote:Q: Can different races crossbreed?
A: Yes, but it is rare...and often difficult due to cultural differences, etc. which is why you don't see it often. The lore team has informed me that there will be future quests/events that touch on this and other issues, such as love and marriage.
Your info on miscarriages due to odd compatibility though, could explain some of the rarity. I find that preeetty interesting!
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Qhora Bajihri - 02-19-2014
Wow. Big thread from long ago. I read several pages but not the whole thing. My immediate first thoughts were things I thought I'd read but have no references for anymore.
1.) I thought I read somewhere that "humanity" or "mankind" within FFXIV's context actually referred to all the sentient races as a collective whole, never to just hyur. That would encourage looking at the different races less biologically and more culturally. Of course, I don't know of a human culture that has restricted access between genders due to a very real numbers disparity (as opposed to restricted access imposed by the culture), but in my case, that's where the interest lies. What would a human culture do in such a situation (insert examples of colony development here)?
and 2.) I thought I read somewhere that crossbreeds had a sort of Lady & the Tramp effect, where the resultant offspring is not a phenotypic mix but externally takes after one or the other of the parents, not both, which in the sense of what we see walking around the game makes it a lot more viable to play one. Yeah, my mother was a roegadyn and my father was a lalafell, but I take after my dad. Them's the breaks.
Woo, thoughts without references or reading the entire massive thread.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - TheShii - 02-19-2014
This is a great read, but frankly I'm a bit disappointed in those that find this 'going too far' or have called it useless/pointless or what have you.
It doesn't hurt anyone for the writer to have taken their time to conjure up a nice spread of information that covers some very basic social structures/behaviors and equated them to the miqo'te in a fun and entertaining way. While everything might not be word for word from lore (which was admitted throughout the writing), it's still a fascinating post to give some food for thought as well as offer potential muse fuel for those that want to get a bit creative.
The lore is a guideline after all, nothing wrong with taking something from this little biology lesson and adapting it to how you'd like that's appropriate to the theme of the game
I would thoroughly enjoy reading some more biology themed food for thought rambles in the future!
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - ArmachiA - 02-19-2014
(02-19-2014, 01:21 AM)Xenedra Wrote:(02-18-2014, 05:25 AM)XelosOne Wrote: As for the the specifics, I won't even get into the breeding process among feline species here, but Hyur males are absolutely not built correctly to "get that process going". All humor aside, speaking strictly from a scientific standpoint, the donor-recipient genetic puzzle pieces simply would not fit, and no amount of rumored lore, wishful thinking or magic could make them.
I enjoyed your standpoint, but it's not rumored lore, it's actual lore. Half-breeds are a canon thing.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/32685-Questions-related-to-Lore?p=490835&viewfull=1#post490835
Quote:Q: Can different races crossbreed?
A: Yes, but it is rare...and often difficult due to cultural differences, etc. which is why you don't see it often. The lore team has informed me that there will be future quests/events that touch on this and other issues, such as love and marriage.
Your info on miscarriages due to odd compatibility though, could explain some of the rarity. I find that preeetty interesting!
I was gonna come in here just to post this. We don't know the evolutionary backstory of any of these races, we can't even say with 100% certainty that Miqote and Hyur didn't evolve from the same thing. Saying with 100% certainty that they can't crossbreed is just as bad as saying they CAN if there was no official stance to back it up. But since their is an official stance of the subject (They can) we need to respect that.
You know what would be interesting? Trying to figure out why the races can all interbreed instead of railing against it and saying they can't. I wanna see that theory.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Lost River - 02-19-2014
Its because they are all genetic alterations from their superior core Roegadyn species; yes, yes. They were engineered to add diversity to the world.
I kid, I kid.
Buuut, the whole engineering thing brings a curious light though.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Tequila - 02-19-2014
(02-19-2014, 01:07 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: The rule is one nunh per territory, and a tribe can have multiple territories. A tia can become nunh by defeating the nunh of an existing territory in battle, or he can acquire new territory for the tribe and be granted the title of nunh of that territory. That's different from the tia just striking out on his own and creating a new tribe, which per lore is extremely rare.
By the by, the mixed naming convention thing on that wiki is a "fanon" construct and hasn't been confirmed by any official lore source. The devs haven't said anything about mixed clan naming conventions, at least that I've seen.
Thanks for reaffirming. I've actually been putting a whole lot of thought into why Renha is named the way he is since deciding on it. Identity crisis wooo.
Without getting too much into detail, what I came up with is that a child born to a Keeper mother and raised in a traditional Seeker setting would likely be fairly ostracized from the rest of his tribe. When he gets old enough to understand why, he casts off the title of "Tia" and all the responsibility that comes with it, and takes on his mother's family name instead - paying respect to his lineage and toward the woman who'd loved him most.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - synaesthetic - 02-19-2014
Word of God states that all the races can interbreed. This means they are all the same species.
They don't go into enough detail to say for 100% sure, however, that half-breeds are "viable." So they don't say one way or another if any half-breed would be capable of having children of their own.
The idea that all the races are, in fact, the same species, or have all descended from a very recent common ancestor makes a lot of sense morphologically. Despite some minor differences, most of the races look very similar. The only major morphological difference is between miqo'te and lalafell and everyone else (the rest have the same shape, just different size and slight adjustments to their features between them). I would suggest, then, that the current miqo'te and lalafell population share a common ancestor with the rest of the "spoken," however, the common ancestor they all share is slightly further back than the most recent common ancestor shared by hyur, elezen and roegadyn.
Miqo'te and lalafell pose a problem because their morphology is not only different in major ways--the skull of a miqo'te would have to be considerably different than that of a hyur, elezen or roegadyn, and their spine and vertebrae would also have to be very different to account for the flexibility of their tails--but some of their physical features are extremely unlikely or impossible without some external influence. For that reason I would suggest that both miqo'te and lalafell were magically altered hyur or near-hyur ancestors, either intentionally or environmentally, by the presence of corrupted aether. It would not be very farfetched to imagine that the miqo'te were "genetically engineered" via the use of magic in order to create a "super hunter." I don't really know why anyone would intentionally create lalafell; perhaps their existence was an accident of magically-distorted evolution.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Ildur - 02-19-2014
Or maybe lalafells are the original race, and everyone else is just the results of their magical experiments. It explains why their architecture is so huge: they were expecting to become giants!
But in seriousness, yes, all of the 'races' are part of the same species. It makes perfect sense to me, as they all are basically humans. Additionally, Titan calls the player character and his allies "Sons of Man" (or maybe he was talking about how the "sons of man" were hurting the kobolds. I forgot). Considering the one saying it is an ancient monster as ancient as the world, it's a sure bet that they all share the same ancestor.