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+--- Thread: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view (/showthread.php?tid=2961)
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Seohyun - 07-23-2013
The original post is extremely informative and well put together. Mucho internet points. I don't play a miqo'te but if I did plan on playing a tribal miqo'te I'm sure this would have been a huge help. Good job.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Myxie Tryxle - 07-23-2013
The original inspiration for this thread was a thread about inbreeding by Swift a few days back. In it, he and others were asking questions like:
Why don't the Miqo'te suffer from inbreeding?
Would the Miqo'te have traditional father figures?
Could my character have a Seeker father and Keeper mother?
Most people just wanted to flesh out a good back story for their characters, despite the lack of lore. We got some good discussion going there, and Swift asked me if he could reuse the information on other forums, so I decided to write a more cohesive thesis and bring all those questions together. There was a lot of good feedback on that thread as well as this one, and it became obvious a lot of people were asking these sorts of questions and valuing the input.
As far as ERP goes, I find it a little far-fetched to say that this discussion is ERP or encouraging ERP. As far as I can tell, character background or lore are not a consideration, and hardcore ERPers (the ones that most roleplayers despise for giving the community at large a dubious reputation) care about two things: how hot is my character and how sexually explicit is the interaction? Looking back at the entire thread, the most sexually explicit posts by far are the flames against it. I'm rather impressed and proud of this community that 95% of the discussion has been intellectual and informative. If it weren't, I would have already petitioned a moderator to lock or delete the thread.
As for the notion of someone using the lore to justify blackmailing others into creepy, unwanted RP, that would likely happen regardless of what the lore is, because that person is a creep. At the very least, it would come out over time. Most people will back down if you send them a tell that you're not comfortable with being pressured into a certain type of roleplay. If they don't, blacklist them and move on. Plenty of better people than that out there to RP with.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Myxie Tryxle - 07-23-2013
(07-22-2013, 08:07 PM)Razamir Lahoka Wrote: Hell for one such instance their nose, as per SE "Â have the noses of hounds."Â If you bring this topic up, you are shot down as being a metagamer or even godmodder.I'll take a stab at the second part first. From the private messages I've gotten regarding this thread, the vast majority want this information to inform their character's backstory. Because the male Miqo'te are new to the setting and because their social structure is different from normal humans due to their different mating strategies, people have a lot of questions without any answers leading to a lot of discussion.
tldr = Why are people focusing on the mating so much of this race, when there are many more aspects to focus on, str/stam/agi their senses ie noses, eyesight, hearing.  etc. Unless alot of people are planning on doing just this " breeding." Should it really matter if not? I personally think , if any aspect of the nuhn thing should be focused on is their other duties, such as protecting their lands/ clan members, hunting etc.
As for the other discussion you mention about the senses, I'd be very interested to see that thread. I did a little digging and got a couple ideas. For your quote about the Miqo'te sense of smell, I found this quote from 1.x:
"Midlanders do not possess the endless stamina of the Roegadyn, nor the hawk-like eyes of the Elezen, nor the hound-like noses of the Miqo'te, nor the deer-like ears of the Lalafell, nor even the muscle-bound builds of their cousins, the Highland Hyur."
It's the only one I could find equating Miqo'te to hounds. Considering this comes from an NPC description of Midlander Hyur rather than a description of Miqo'te, my take is that it's a little bit of poetic license, and that they were likely exaggerating a little bit to punctuate the notion that Midlanders were the "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none." Just as I would doubt that Roegadyn all have no limit to their stamina and that Elezen have eyes that are literally capable of telescopic vision like many birds of prey.
Further searching yielded this quote, which seems to come directly from a description about Miqo'te. This same quote appeared on several wikis. Although I couldn't find its source in game, it sounds like it came from the character creator:
"Adaption to a hunting lifestyle has fashioned them with a keen sense of smell, powerful legs, and a tail which provides them with exceptional balance."
Doing a little bit of internet research, I came up with the following numbers. Real-world cats have senses of smell that are roughly 14 times as acute as humans. For wolves, their sense of smell jumps to 100 times the strength of humans (about 7 times more powerful than cats). Bloodhounds are the terrestrial kings. Their sense of smell is around 300 times more powerful than humans (3 times that of wolves and 20 times that of cats).
Given the source in game is NPC dialog and the fact that bloodhounds are the result of 1000 years of artificial selection by humans to specifically strengthen their sense of smell over all other traits, the idea that Miqo'te have scent capabilities equivalent to bloodhounds is unreasonable. A shark, for example, can detect blood in the water at concentrations as low as 1 part per billion, but it dedicates a third of its brain to olfaction in order to do so.
The other problem with a super-human sense of smell is that it's game breaking for a variety of scenarios. If you're throwing a murder mystery event and someone's character can just smell the butler's scent on the bloody candlestick as well as the victim's blood on the butler despite him washing his hands, the story ends in three minutes and no one had any fun. It becomes an arms race where the storyteller has to bend over backwards to find a means to completely negate the player's ability just to have an interesting story, leaving both parties aggravated.
If we consider the second quote as giving a more reasonable interpretation for a Miqo'te to have a sense of smell somewhere in the real world cat to wolf range and limited the capability of the trait to something along the lines of the scent feat from D&D 3.5, I think that would be more reasonable.
Personally, I'm curious about Miqo'te night vision. I was watching a documentary on lions yesterday and learned that their night vision is far better than humans can achieve even with military grade night vision goggles. Real world lions do a lot of their hunting at night, and often sleep through the heat of the day, so they differ from Seekers in that regard. While not explicitly mentioned anywhere that I can find, I wouldn't think it unreasonable that at least the Keepers would have really good night vision.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Aduu Avagnar - 07-23-2013
Personally, this is a part of Miqo'te culture that IS mentioned by the devs, so I see no issue with delving further, mating habits can and will change a culture by their very nature.
Also, as I am playing a tribal Miqo'te, this is rather interesting to me. Will I run off with this new insight, or the help it brings to my RP and start forcing others to ERP with it? no, because I am not a douche, and don't wish to play like that, could others do so? yes they could, but those that do, probably would do so anyways.
more thoughts on this to come when not at work.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Rhynka - 07-23-2013
(07-23-2013, 08:58 AM)Callipygian Wrote: Given the source in game is NPC dialog and the fact that bloodhounds are the result of 1000 years of artificial selection by humans to specifically strengthen their sense of smell over all other traits, the idea that Miqo'te have scent capabilities equivalent to bloodhounds is unreasonable.It isn't unreasonable, considering the info you gave about lion prides I knew when I was still in elementary school I have to question if you're really a biologist.
"the fact that bloodhounds are the result of 1000 years of artificial selection by humans"
Okay, so you're saying the miqo'te are too damn dumb to do that with their own bloodlines? Are you saying they're just mindless cats who wouldn't selectively pick the fastest, strongest, most capable, and adaptive traits to pass on considering how they keep track of their bloodlines?
Also when breeding hounds, honey it doesn't take long before you notice physical differences if you know what you're doing. Here's a small example. In fact it's just 5 generations down picking the most docile in a liter of foxes before you don't just see their temperament change in the line but you also begin to see physical changes, such as tails curling and floppy ears as well as awkward colors not even native to the species. Yeah, this is with foxes, not hounds, but I think I got my point across that with sentient help it's not unreasonable. I'm pretty sure the miqo'te could figure it out if it's a desirable trait they want to keep in their descendents.
So saying it's unreasonable also negates your entire statement about selective breeding. I think it's not that it's unreasonable, but it's just not interesting and boring as one of the individuals mentioned in here.
Oh and as an after thought, don't compare to measly house cats, compare to a lion or tiger that has to live off it's sense of smell to hunt, or even FIND other females in the wild.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Aduu Avagnar - 07-23-2013
(07-23-2013, 12:07 PM)Rhynka Wrote:so then, given humans aren't mindless monkeys, why aren't we all Mesomorphs when that is the strongest, most capable and adaptive trait to have? surely we, as a species with a high intelect, would pick that trait to breed into ourselves?(07-23-2013, 08:58 AM)Callipygian Wrote: Given the source in game is NPC dialog and the fact that bloodhounds are the result of 1000 years of artificial selection by humans to specifically strengthen their sense of smell over all other traits, the idea that Miqo'te have scent capabilities equivalent to bloodhounds is unreasonable.It isn't unreasonable, considering the info you gave about lion prides I knew when I was still in elementary school I have to question if you're really a biologist.
"the fact that bloodhounds are the result of 1000 years of artificial selection by humans"
Okay, so you're saying the miqo'te are too damn dumb to do that with their own bloodlines? Are you saying they're just mindless cats who wouldn't selectively pick the fastest, strongest, most capable, and adaptive traits to pass on considering how they keep track of their bloodlines?
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Rhynka - 07-23-2013
(07-23-2013, 12:16 PM)Nako Wrote:I don't know where that bullshit statement came from, but humans don't do what she is suggesting the miqo'te do. I doubt they do this with as rigorous planning as the OP suggests. I'm also sure if government agencies and other forms of authority had their way, yes they would love to attempt breeding the best out of the best with humanity. But guess what, ALL of us don't pick who we bump uglies with according to what you stated. In fact what a human being desires in a life lover is so different and varying from person to person, NO we wouldn't see that happening unless you robbed all of their free ability to choose.(07-23-2013, 12:07 PM)Rhynka Wrote:so then, given humans aren't mindless monkeys, why aren't we all Mesomorphs when that is the strongest, most capable and adaptive trait to have? surely we, as a species with a high intelect, would pick that trait to breed into ourselves?(07-23-2013, 08:58 AM)Callipygian Wrote: Given the source in game is NPC dialog and the fact that bloodhounds are the result of 1000 years of artificial selection by humans to specifically strengthen their sense of smell over all other traits, the idea that Miqo'te have scent capabilities equivalent to bloodhounds is unreasonable.It isn't unreasonable, considering the info you gave about lion prides I knew when I was still in elementary school I have to question if you're really a biologist.
"the fact that bloodhounds are the result of 1000 years of artificial selection by humans"
Okay, so you're saying the miqo'te are too damn dumb to do that with their own bloodlines? Are you saying they're just mindless cats who wouldn't selectively pick the fastest, strongest, most capable, and adaptive traits to pass on considering how they keep track of their bloodlines?
She is suggesting the miqo'te are on the level of wild cats, lions to be exact. Well she used house cats for the scent argument (Funny how the provisions change to snuff out boring concepts!) But combine the lion pride set up and this "Cultural" difference about 'breeding' and mix it with human intelligence that the miqo'te do have. I'm sure a city miqo'te may have no such distinct traits and may not be as up to snuff as a tribal one (Due to bloodlines-yes!) but to say it's unreasonable is a flimsy argument that the OP nullifies herself with the entire purpose of her thread. BREED FOR THE BEST!
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - growly beast - 07-23-2013
Well. I was all excited to see where this discussion would go, but it kinda feels like it's been hijacked by attempts to police what people talk about and do. It's making me uncomfortable to read and really feels like borderline flaming.
So much for that.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Rhynka - 07-23-2013
It does seem though that both me and my husband have been making others feel insulted while trying to prove an initial point.
The point wasn't the realism, lore, or trying to say miqo'te are all sluts! I plan to play a tribal miqo'te trying to adapt to city life. I've had to take a lot more into account than just how they make babies. I've seen other miqo'te culture threads turn into miqo'te breeding threads cause it's the most fascinating to the majority I guess. Mostly it occurs in skype chat with these discussions. It seems to be the main focus of their culture. It also has been mapped clear enough by SE, there's little need for that kind of detail unless that is the main focus of what you want to play. Not saying it's good or bad, just saying it looks bad and perpetuates that bad stigma on anthro style RP and the people who play them.
The point we've wanted to make here is that it feels as if all this community cares about is breeding. You bring up anything else given by SE and backed with RL facts just like she did and it's shot down as boring, moddish, and well now "Unreasonable".
Here are some things I've had to consider when making Rhynka and trying to tune the story of her origins.
-The miqo'te have a language all their own unable to be spoken by anyone outside of their race. Hence she speaks with an accent.
-When the miqo'te came to Eorzea they found Eorzea had 26 letters in their alphabet coinciding with the 26 tribes. They felt it was destiny to be part of Eorzea then.
-Rhynka wasn't born in her clan, she was brought there by a mother that died shortly after. She had no bloodline connection so yes, it made her quite coveted to remain to prevent inbreeding.
-Interesting tidbit about Razamir's past is that his mother did beg for his life when the new nunh took over because he had off colored eyes which is a sign of greatness in an individual to the seekers. A superstitious seeker mom would be proud and see him as a hero to be of sorts if you catch my drift.
-Razamir had to challenge the current nunh because he wanted to take Rhynka when he left and her being new blood to the tribe wasn't going to fly at all with the current nunh. He almost died in this encounter.
-Rhynka and Razamir are by no means monogamous, but sex and love are two seperate things. They love each other but that means nothing when it comes sex with others. She does save her womb to bear his children only, which is strictly a cultural choice.
Have I taken into consideration the so called 'breeding strategies'? Yes, I have very much so, but it was easy enough to do with elementary level education on lions, and the stuff SE posted about the miqo'te as well as bits found in NPC texts during 1.0.
I don't feel the need to sit and focus hard on this one aspect as it wasn't that complicated. Things that are such as the result of selective reproduction I have had to think more on and my results will most likely be shot down in favor of more 'popular' lore I suppose.
The only point we've tried to make here is people are glorifying and making important something that's only a small aspect of miqo'te culture, and when other ideas are brought forth they're shot down cause they're not as appealing. The responses we've gotten are proof enough, so carry on an pick apart what I've said I won't be posting in this thread again.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - K'nahli - 07-23-2013
Uhm... there's no need to get so worked up over this. Disagreeing with someone's opinion is fine but please don't turn this topic into something degrading when it had potential for some decent conversation x.x
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Khaze'to Zhwan - 07-23-2013
I have lurked this topic because I felt that there was nothing really for me to add as Callipygian covered the biological view so well.  Obviously it isn't the only influence on behavior of an individual or the development of a culture.  As someone has already said Nurture vs Nature brings all kinds of interesting points of view to the table. Â
I don't understand why certain individuals needed to come in and start accusing the previous posters as spreading erp, Humans have mating strategies and that doesn't mean that those who discuss it are all free loving hippies who "spread their legs" The title of the thread was clearly labeled as being about the mating strategies from a biologist  pov.  If you want to talk about the other cultural aspects of the Miqo'te lore then please start up a new thread about it.
One further note, disregarding someones academic past just because they provide a simple  source of information is just rude.  Its a well known saying that if you can't explain something to the layman in simple terms you don't understand the subject as well as you think.
Keep on trucking Callipygian, as a student of animal behavior you have my thanks for a well thought out and structured approach to the subject.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Alothia - 07-23-2013
I think that most of the conflict in this thread have simply come from misunderstandings on both sides. That being said, let's get this conversation back on track!
I do think that maybe starting another thread that discusses the physical advantages of the races would be interesting. Maybe someone would like to do that?
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - FreelanceWizard - 07-23-2013
I'm way staying out of where this thread is going (I think we should have a discussion on other elements of miqo'te biology and how/if they factor into consent, but that's not this thread), but I've got one little lore nitpick:
(07-23-2013, 01:04 PM)Rhynka Wrote: -The miqo'te have a language all their own unable to be spoken by anyone outside of their race. Hence she speaks with an accent.
I'd say it's more accurate to say they "had" such a language. Dev posts on naming conventions strongly imply (or, in the case of Roegadyn, outright state) that any racial languages are long dead and really only live on in names. That doesn't mean you can't say your character comes from a really obscure, out of the way tribal branch that still uses them, but I don't feel the lore supports miqo'te actively speaking a racial language in the modern era.
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Naunet - 07-23-2013
(07-23-2013, 01:04 PM)Rhynka Wrote: Mostly it occurs in skype chat
So...
... is there some kind of community skype chat or something? o.0
RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Khaze'to Zhwan - 07-23-2013
(07-23-2013, 03:00 PM)Naunet Wrote:There is but I don't remember seeing much chat about Miqo'te sex, Add Tulcaondo to skype and I'll add you to the chat.(07-23-2013, 01:04 PM)Rhynka Wrote: Mostly it occurs in skype chat
So...
... is there some kind of community skype chat or something? o.0