+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Final Fantasy 14 (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=41)
+--- Forum: FFXIV Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=12)
+--- Thread: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea (/showthread.php?tid=3437)
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Adelpha - 08-10-2013
Don't worry about it, it was just a lighthearted joke in an attempt to bring some levity to this thread.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Reppu - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 02:33 PM)Zizirimu Yayarimu Wrote: Reppu, I am not sure what you mean. I am reading a little negativity there with the short, 2 word reply though. I wont engage you for the purpose of this discussion if that's the case. Sorry about anything I may have caused.
I'm a little lost with your reply Colyer, but I don't think I am getting any closer to my inquiry at the moment.
Adelpha, I am not sure what happened before in 1.0 but player history wouldn't matter in this case. It's just like with introduction of new genders suddenly... people have to change their backgrounds. I am sympathetic, but I don't think lore should be effected by what happened before.
Sometimes you only need a short response. I try not to always flood my posts with words, when I can be a minimalist. Since apparently that failed me this time...
"I have my extreme doubts that it would be frowned upon, dangerous, or otherwise shunned or reported to show homosexual affection in both a roleplaying and real sense within FFXIV, intolerable and ignorant individuals non-witstanding.'
That is what I would have said, were I not trying to be a minimalist. The same thing I've been saying to you thus far.
-
Also, 1.0 is a very real part of the lore. If you're looking to disregard it, it sounds like you're joining Gilgamesh, since it seems a few people there are gungho for "1.0 never happened"?
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Naunet - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 05:36 AM)Reppu Wrote: Is there a problem in waiting, while keeping the issue known? I, for one, think not.
Okay, buddy, you seriously need to stop mischaracterizing the argument being made by those of us pressuring Squee for marriage equality in-game.
Please note: No one is demanding that Squeenix implement marriage right now immediately ASAP BLARGH!
So stop using that in your argument. Just stop. You're trying to redirect the conversation to a point that has absolutely nothing to do with the argument originally presented (and the one that we are pressuring Squeenix on).
(08-10-2013, 06:22 AM)Reppu Wrote: It's almost telling, really.
Your condescension is horrifically unnecessary.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - synaesthetic - 08-10-2013
Hey, hey, guys?
This calmly sitting around and protesting in a meek tone while sipping tea? That shit doesn't work. It just doesn't.
Remember when the XBOX One was announced with all those restrictions? No used games, always-on internet connection, all that stuff?
Yeah. You know now the xbone doesn't have any of those restrictions anymore, right?
You know how they got removed? Not by fucking being calm and polite!
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Naunet - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 06:35 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: So... how does introducing a marriage system in a video game that doesn't include same sex marriage fit into this description? For all we know all the marriage system does is give you a quest that ends in some kind of cutscene or something and absolutely nothing else. Does not getting a cutscene make your fake video game relationshio somehow more fake? Does it make my fake in game relationship less fake because I got a cutscene?
That's not the point. No one should be excluded from content - and it is hard-line exclusion, not just "Oh, I can't raid because it's too difficult/time consuming." I don't really appreciate your "What does it matter?" attitude, because clearly it does matter to a lot of us, which makes your posts largely irrelevant and mostly just inciting negative reactions.
I don't care when marriage gets implemented (I honestly wouldn't care even if they ended up not implementing it), but whenever it does hit the game, I absolutely expect them to implement it so that it is accessible to everyone, not just those who want to get married in a straight pairing.
And you know, this doesn't only affect non-straight players - it affects everyone. Real life couples who want to get married in-game using the marriage system but can't because they both chose to play male characters, or both play female characters. Regardless of their real life sexuality. So not only would gender restrictions be Squeenix-endorsed discrimination, but it would unfairly exclude a lot of other people from an aspect of the game (which, while fluff, is still very much a part of the game, and no one should ever be excluded from any part of the game).
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Twinflame - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 03:41 AM)Reppu Wrote: No, you should be tolerant of Yoshi-P and the FFXIV developers, because they are actually acknowledging the requests of far more reasonable and far more deserving individuals. Your demands are being looked into. Your equality is being acknowledged.
So the bus-driver said to Miss Rosa Parks: "I acknowledge your request to not sit at the back of the bus, but just sit back there for now and once we're on the road and moving we'll see what the rest of the bus thinks and maybe you can move up to sit with everyone else later." And then Miss Rosa Parks sat in the back for the bus because she understood that her tacitly accepting oppression when it is polite is actually a kind of equality.
That's exactly how it happened, right?
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Zizirimu Yayarimu - 08-10-2013
No I'm balmung, I wouldn't equate what I said with server selection. What I mean is that player interaction itself is not a factor to consider when it come to official lore. Thanks for unpacking your other reply
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Yini Kihn - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 12:36 PM)Zizirimu Yayarimu Wrote: I am thinking about the RP implications of this. Does it mean that there is only straight marriage in Eorzean culture/society as well? After all, isn't the devs word usually followed above player lore?
I think you're confusing things.
Never once has anyone at Square-Enix even hinted that there is any form of discrimination with respect to sexual orientation in Eorzea. The only reason same-sex marriage might not be added is because of real-world issues that have nothing to do with how things are viewed in Eorzea. They want to put it in—they just might not be able to.
I strongly encourage you to role-play as if gay marriage is allowed in Eorzea even if the game mechanics do not support it. I'm quite confident that essentially everyone here would agree with my view on this. You can trust me, honest!
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Naunet - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 10:03 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: Having your thread locked is actually counterproductive to whatever cause you're trying to further because it means that whatever point you were trying to make got lost in pages of flames, trolls, and hate.
There is absolutely nothing an OP of a thread on the beta forum can do to prevent their thread from getting locked. If you make a thread supporting the implementation of a marriage system without gender restrictions, the majority of responses are people who just want to troll it into oblivion, or a whole bunch of "inb4lock" posts. It's absolutely idiotic.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Zizirimu Yayarimu - 08-10-2013
Lol so is anyone complaining to SE? Or boycotting the game until this resolves?
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Domri Blackblade - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 03:11 PM)Twinflame Wrote:(08-10-2013, 03:41 AM)Reppu Wrote: No, you should be tolerant of Yoshi-P and the FFXIV developers, because they are actually acknowledging the requests of far more reasonable and far more deserving individuals. Your demands are being looked into. Your equality is being acknowledged.
So the bus-driver said to Miss Rosa Parks: "I acknowledge your request to not sit at the back of the bus, but just sit back there for now and once we're on the road and moving we'll see what the rest of the bus thinks and maybe you can move up to sit with everyone else later." And then Miss Rosa Parks sat in the back for the bus because she understood that her tacitly accepting oppression when it is polite is actually a kind of equality.
That's exactly how it happened, right?
But... Rosa Parks didn't curse out everyone on the bus and act like a banshee. She just refused with a high chin.
Mind you, I'm on your side. I do RP gay characters. I am gay IRL. My only issue is that people are now attacking each other over this to the point where people who may not have an opinion are losing a lot of sympathy for our side.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Reppu - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 02:55 PM)Naunet Wrote:(08-10-2013, 05:36 AM)Reppu Wrote: Is there a problem in waiting, while keeping the issue known? I, for one, think not.
Okay, buddy, you seriously need to stop mischaracterizing the argument being made by those of us pressuring Squee for marriage equality in-game.
Please note: No one is demanding that Squeenix implement marriage right now immediately ASAP BLARGH!
So stop using that in your argument. Just stop. You're trying to redirect the conversation to a point that has absolutely nothing to do with the argument originally presented (and the one that we are pressuring Squeenix on).
The case as stated is there is ire toward SquareEnix for announcing their plans to implement Opposite-Gender marriage. Yoshida has come out and stated that the subject of Same-Gender is a very touchy (delicate) one, and will be looked at or considered.
This, right here, is where many of us, dubbed 'rationals' by another poster, are willing to accept things. For a mechanic not yet implemented, and thus no discrimination has yet been had. This is because there is a chance that this will change before the release in 2.1.
If you view discrimination as the original intent was not to allow Same-Gender Marriage, then that is 'fine'. However, should you attack this, you begin to undermine the empathy being presented by SquareEnix, enough to have the topic brought into consideration.
If you believe this a blanket statement to shut the LGBT community up, that is within your right.
Now, this is where things get trickier; People who are not in favor of waiting to see how things develop, while keeping the anvil hot, are sounding like they are not satisfied.
No one has once stated (I will note now, you made a perception and presented it as fact! What you claim I did, I have a quote of you doing right now) they think the LGBT community is demanding it right now.
HOWEVER, it is possible to take what IS presented, as it is being demanded to be either confirmed right now, or otherwise will be released at the same time. This, if false, is an easy mistake to make considering the sheer emotion behind the words being used.
Nothing can excuse some of the more toxic statements stated, however.
And thus, here we come at a major problem;
People who seem to be tolerant enough to wait and see if Yoshida can deliver are, and I quote from one of your own Company members,
"white knights that support passive-discrimination."
This? And I am going to use an unfortunately powerful word here? Is stupid. This is a blatant thoughtcrime attempt, and a witch-hunt for anyone who does not adamantly agree with an individual's point of view.
Ultimately? It is a disgusting statement.
But let's take it even further, when words are twisted and manipulated that showing tolerance for the Japanese is the same as, and I quote again,
"Should I be tolerant of gay people being put to death in the Middle East because it's "their culture?" So now we're supposed to accept horrible bigotry and discrimination and evil acts simply because it's someone else's culture?"
This is not just disgusting? But beyond toxic of a comparison to make. This is, again, a thoughtcrime attempt.
So, before you use 'statements' to belittle the opinion of a supporter of your cause, but is not quite as 'emotionally invested' as you are? Present some facts.
Combined with your own statements earlier, and the quoted individual? All I've gathered from two of Unity's representatives in this thread so far, is a lot of hatred and... surprisingly? Intolerance.
And if this is the stance you all are taking, then I am unfortunately incapable of taking this further. I will continue to support this struggle? But not like this.
Quit with the thoughtcrimes. Quit with the toxic remarks. When you decide to practice what you demand from others, I'll be happy to discuss such a passionate topic again.
(08-10-2013, 03:11 PM)Twinflame Wrote:(08-10-2013, 03:41 AM)Reppu Wrote: No, you should be tolerant of Yoshi-P and the FFXIV developers, because they are actually acknowledging the requests of far more reasonable and far more deserving individuals. Your demands are being looked into. Your equality is being acknowledged.
So the bus-driver said to Miss Rosa Parks: "I acknowledge your request to not sit at the back of the bus, but just sit back there for now and once we're on the road and moving we'll see what the rest of the bus thinks and maybe you can move up to sit with everyone else later." And then Miss Rosa Parks sat in the back for the bus because she understood that her tacitly accepting oppression when it is polite is actually a kind of equality.
That's exactly how it happened, right?
I'm beginning to see a trend here with Unity. This is actually very troubling. Extreme statements abound.
(08-10-2013, 03:19 PM)Meia Wrote:(08-10-2013, 03:11 PM)Twinflame Wrote:(08-10-2013, 03:41 AM)Reppu Wrote: No, you should be tolerant of Yoshi-P and the FFXIV developers, because they are actually acknowledging the requests of far more reasonable and far more deserving individuals. Your demands are being looked into. Your equality is being acknowledged.
So the bus-driver said to Miss Rosa Parks: "I acknowledge your request to not sit at the back of the bus, but just sit back there for now and once we're on the road and moving we'll see what the rest of the bus thinks and maybe you can move up to sit with everyone else later." And then Miss Rosa Parks sat in the back for the bus because she understood that her tacitly accepting oppression when it is polite is actually a kind of equality.
That's exactly how it happened, right?
But... Rosa Parks didn't curse out everyone on the bus and act like a banshee. She just refused with a high chin.
Mind you, I'm on your side. I do RP gay characters. I am gay IRL. My only issue is that people are now attacking each other over this to the point where people who may not have an opinion are losing a lot of sympathy for our side.
Keep in mind, I actually support gay marriage in all forms ( I kind of have to be! ), be it in video games or real life. So, I'm a supporter? I'm just not bringing out the pitchforks yet.
(08-10-2013, 03:18 PM)Zizirimu Yayarimu Wrote: Lol so is anyone complaining to SE? Or boycotting the game until this resolves?
A boycott would be beyond the call of duty at this time. Maybe if 2.1 rolls around and nothing is shown of it. And even then? I would expect to further boycotts against any and every RPG that does not allow gay relationships or marriage.
Equality is also striking with it.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Colyer - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 02:33 PM)Zizirimu Yayarimu Wrote: Reppu, I am not sure what you mean. I am reading a little negativity there with the short, 2 word reply though. I wont engage you for the purpose of this discussion if that's the case. Sorry about anything I may have caused.
I'm a little lost with your reply Colyer, but I don't think I am getting any closer to my inquiry at the moment.
Adelpha, I am not sure what happened before in 1.0 but player history wouldn't matter in this case. It's just like with introduction of new genders suddenly... people have to change their backgrounds. I am sympathetic, but I don't think lore should be effected by what happened before.
My point is that a developer has the authority to state lore where an random "somebody" doesn't.
As far as I know, Yoshi P's statement was in official capacity so that gives his words weight.Â
Example in the current lore male Miqu'te are rare, with the majority of births being female. Reborn allows players to create male Miqu'tes now. So does an large population of player created male Miqu'te invalidates the existing lore? No, the developers can make the call to separate gameplay with lore in that case to preserve their vision.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Eve Malusion - 08-10-2013
So I would appreciate someone correcting me if I'm wrong on this, but there's one thing that is kind of bothering me about the earlier arguments about same sex marriage risking the game getting banned in some countries.
What exactly is the evidence of that happening at all in an MMO in the past? I've been trying to look it up but the only cases of middle eastern countries ever banning a game for same sex relationships has been for single player titles. No matter where I've looked I couldn't find a single case of a MMORPG being banned or having it's age rating increased due to same sex relationships. As for Russia, I haven't been able to find a case of them ever banning a video game at all.
Sorry if this has been addressed earlier, I did read the entire thread but I might have missed a post on it in passing.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Naunet - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 03:19 PM)Meia Wrote: But... Rosa Parks didn't curse out everyone on the bus and act like a banshee.Â
No one is doing this. There are passionate posts, but no one is "cursing out everyone" and acting "like a banshee". It is patronizing posts like this one, however, that make me want to do so, because it is incredibly frustrating to construct strongly worded but completely rational arguments and then get told to calm down like I am some kind of child who doesn't know how to control myself.