(08-10-2013, 03:47 PM)Naunet Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 03:44 PM)Reppu Wrote: Alerting you to blatant thoughtcrimes is a favor, not a negative line being crossed. If you see it purely as malicious, that is not my intent. I do apologize if you took it as such, but I do not apologize for pointing it out.

Thoughtcrimes? This is not 1984 (the novel). There is absolutely nothing wrong with being passionate about opposing inequality, but there's certainly something wrong with telling said passionate person that they need to stop.

(08-10-2013, 03:49 PM)Eve Malusion Wrote: Snip~

(08-10-2013, 03:19 PM)Meia Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 03:11 PM)Twinflame Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 03:41 AM)Reppu Wrote: No, you should be tolerant of Yoshi-P and the FFXIV developers, because they are actually acknowledging the requests of far more reasonable and far more deserving individuals. Your demands are being looked into. Your equality is being acknowledged.

So the bus-driver said to Miss Rosa Parks: "I acknowledge your request to not sit at the back of the bus, but just sit back there for now and once we're on the road and moving we'll see what the rest of the bus thinks and maybe you can move up to sit with everyone else later." And then Miss Rosa Parks sat in the back for the bus because she understood that her tacitly accepting oppression when it is polite is actually a kind of equality.

That's exactly how it happened, right?

But... Rosa Parks didn't curse out everyone on the bus and act like a banshee. She just refused with a high chin.

Mind you, I'm on your side. I do RP gay characters. I am gay IRL. My only issue is that people are now attacking each other over this to the point where people who may not have an opinion are losing a lot of sympathy for our side.

(08-10-2013, 03:56 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: So to be clear the off random chance that the gamy may get an unfairly higher rating because of bigots means we need to just chillax and hope maybe one day Square decides to acknowledge we exist, but also we can't be TOO forceful about it otherwise we're just bad bad uppity gays? So basically just 'hey trust the guys who said maybe someday'?

(08-10-2013, 03:59 PM)katattax Wrote: I'm shocked and quite frankly disgusted that magic, cat-people and so on can exist in this game but non-hetero marriage is apparently too much. I've read the "Japanese culture can't handle it" excuse many times in this thread and, in my opinion, it doesn't fly. I wouldn't accept that for racism so why should I accept it for homophobia? I'm writing SE to explain exactly how I feel on this subject; probably will be ignored but it's all I can do.

My ideal resolution? Either allow marriage to be free of restrictions or don't implement it at all.

(08-10-2013, 02:43 PM)Reppu Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 02:33 PM)Zizirimu Yayarimu Wrote: Reppu, I am not sure what you mean. I am reading a little negativity there with the short, 2 word reply though. I wont engage you for the purpose of this discussion if that's the case. Sorry about anything I may have caused.

I'm a little lost with your reply Colyer, but I don't think I am getting any closer to my inquiry at the moment.

Adelpha, I am not sure what happened before in 1.0 but player history wouldn't matter in this case. It's just like with introduction of new genders suddenly... people have to change their backgrounds. I am sympathetic, but I don't think lore should be effected by what happened before.

Sometimes you only need a short response. I try not to always flood my posts with words, when I can be a minimalist. Since apparently that failed me this time...

"I have my extreme doubts that it would be frowned upon, dangerous, or otherwise shunned or reported to show homosexual affection in both a roleplaying and real sense within FFXIV, intolerable and ignorant individuals non-witstanding.'

That is what I would have said, were I not trying to be a minimalist. The same thing I've been saying to you thus far.

-

Also, 1.0 is a very real part of the lore. If you're looking to disregard it, it sounds like you're joining Gilgamesh, since it seems a few people there are gungho for "1.0 never happened"?

(08-10-2013, 03:58 PM)Twinflame Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 03:19 PM)Meia Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 03:11 PM)Twinflame Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 03:41 AM)Reppu Wrote: No, you should be tolerant of Yoshi-P and the FFXIV developers, because they are actually acknowledging the requests of far more reasonable and far more deserving individuals. Your demands are being looked into. Your equality is being acknowledged.

So the bus-driver said to Miss Rosa Parks: "I acknowledge your request to not sit at the back of the bus, but just sit back there for now and once we're on the road and moving we'll see what the rest of the bus thinks and maybe you can move up to sit with everyone else later." And then Miss Rosa Parks sat in the back for the bus because she understood that her tacitly accepting oppression when it is polite is actually a kind of equality.

That's exactly how it happened, right?

But... Rosa Parks didn't curse out everyone on the bus and act like a banshee. She just refused with a high chin.

Mind you, I'm on your side. I do RP gay characters. I am gay IRL. My only issue is that people are now attacking each other over this to the point where people who may not have an opinion are losing a lot of sympathy for our side.

I think you're over-accepting Reppu's mischaracterizations of things that have been said in this thread. They is actually very little vitriol being directed at SE over this. Are we calling them discriminatory? Yes. We are calling them that because that is how they are behaving. Are we being sensitive to Japanese culture? No. We are not Japanese and cultural aspects that actively discriminate against us do not warrant our sensitivities. If we have to fight against Japanese cultural norms, then we will fight against Japanese cultural norms.

Nobody in here, as far as I can see, has gone as far as to "act like a banshee". Instead we have been tactfully expressing our anger in ways that, while they no doubt exude frustration and offense, also communicate the source of that frustration and offense.

Certain people in this thread are just misrepresenting these as somehow exceptionally vitriolic or vehement, which they are not. The oppressed have every right to be angry, and anyone trying to misrepresent that as "toxic" or unreasonable is completely in the wrong. And besides, they're responding to tone, which is not debate.

May Rosa Parks analogy is not a response to the vitriolic accusations. It is applying Reppu's exact logic to an alternate situation. You cannot say that the logic applies to this situation but not that one, because that isn't how logic works. If Reppu's "respect the oppressor" logic doesn't work in all cases, then the logic is flawed.

(08-10-2013, 03:50 PM)Reppu Wrote: "Should I be tolerant of gay people being put to death in the Middle East because it's "their culture?" So now we're supposed to accept horrible bigotry and discrimination and evil acts simply because it's someone else's culture?" - To asking for patience and tolerance for the Japanese culture that SquareEnix is rooted in.

This is suddenly acceptable? Really? These statements are 'passionate'?

(08-10-2013, 04:01 PM)Rock Sandbourne Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 02:43 PM)Reppu Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 02:33 PM)Zizirimu Yayarimu Wrote: Reppu, I am not sure what you mean. I am reading a little negativity there with the short, 2 word reply though. I wont engage you for the purpose of this discussion if that's the case. Sorry about anything I may have caused.

I'm a little lost with your reply Colyer, but I don't think I am getting any closer to my inquiry at the moment.

Adelpha, I am not sure what happened before in 1.0 but player history wouldn't matter in this case. It's just like with introduction of new genders suddenly... people have to change their backgrounds. I am sympathetic, but I don't think lore should be effected by what happened before.

Sometimes you only need a short response. I try not to always flood my posts with words, when I can be a minimalist. Since apparently that failed me this time...

"I have my extreme doubts that it would be frowned upon, dangerous, or otherwise shunned or reported to show homosexual affection in both a roleplaying and real sense within FFXIV, intolerable and ignorant individuals non-witstanding.'

That is what I would have said, were I not trying to be a minimalist. The same thing I've been saying to you thus far.

-

Also, 1.0 is a very real part of the lore. If you're looking to disregard it, it sounds like you're joining Gilgamesh, since it seems a few people there are gungho for "1.0 never happened"?

 *rolls eyes at this*

Something like this didn't even need to be said at all. Because A. It isn't true in the least and B. Why should something like this even be said in this thread?


I'm going to walk away from this fallacy.

(08-10-2013, 04:03 PM)Naunet Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 03:50 PM)Reppu Wrote: "Should I be tolerant of gay people being put to death in the Middle East because it's "their culture?" So now we're supposed to accept horrible bigotry and discrimination and evil acts simply because it's someone else's culture?" - To asking for patience and tolerance for the Japanese culture that SquareEnix is rooted in.

This is suddenly acceptable? Really? These statements are 'passionate'?

I didn't say this. Please don't lump everyone together just because it's convenient for your point.

(08-10-2013, 04:02 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: I'm sorry it's just, why should I trust Yoshida? I mean I love the games he makes, but literally all I know about his view of gay representation is his one 'eh we'll wait for feedback'.

Someone brought up The Old Republic before, remember that when the devs outright said 'yea we'll have gay stuff for companions' and then didn't deliver until Planet of the Gays dropped and we had to spend money for a crappy expansion that had like, two dudes who said "BY THE BY I LIKEA THE DUDES" and that was a win somehow? 

I straight up don't trust people in media about homosexuality being portrayed in a good way until I actually see it, and I have no reason to think I should start it now.