(08-10-2013, 04:07 PM)Meia Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 03:58 PM)Twinflame Wrote: I think you're over-accepting Reppu's mischaracterizations of things that have been said in this thread. They is actually very little vitriol being directed at SE over this. Are we calling them discriminatory? Yes. We are calling them that because that is how they are behaving. Are we being sensitive to Japanese culture? No. We are not Japanese and cultural aspects that actively discriminate against us do not warrant our sensitivities. If we have to fight against Japanese cultural norms, then we will fight against Japanese cultural norms.

Nobody in here, as far as I can see, has gone as far as to "act like a banshee". Instead we have been tactfully expressing our anger in ways that, while they no doubt exude frustration and offense, also communicate the source of that frustration and offense.

Certain people in this thread are just misrepresenting these as somehow exceptionally vitriolic or vehement, which they are not. The oppressed have every right to be angry, and anyone trying to misrepresent that as "toxic" or unreasonable is completely in the wrong. And besides, they're responding to tone, which is not debate.

May Rosa Parks analogy is not a response to the vitriolic accusations. It is applying Reppu's exact logic to an alternate situation. You cannot say that the logic applies to this situation but not that one, because that isn't how logic works. If Reppu's "respect the oppressor" logic doesn't work in all cases, then the logic is flawed.

I'm actually not taking sides. I have my stance and I have expressed it in other venues. I don't accept their culture, personally, but I understand where they are coming from. And I personally find it frustrating as well. (I didn't approve of a lot of the things that have gone on in my life due to prejudice against my race and orientation, but I understand why it exists. Understanding =/= approval or acceptance in any form.) My issue is with everyone focusing their energy on arguing with each other when that passion should be directed to SE.

I think Reppu has valid points as well as Unity. Do I agree more with one than the other? No. I think both could take from each other. The Japanese traditionalism is frustrating, upsetting, and not okay, but it is not the same as the religious extremism and execution of homosexuals in other countries. That is an analogy I cannot get behind.

And I'm willing to admit I was wrong in my interpretation of your intention with mentioning Rosa Parks.

(08-10-2013, 04:11 PM)Twinflame Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 03:44 PM)Reppu Wrote: And, flatly speaking? If you really think that SquareEnix is 100% discriminative, then by all means. However, truly discriminative individuals do not come out and say 'We are looking into it'.

Of course they do. This is absolutely what your basic every-day casual oppression sounds like. It is polite and calm because it is normal, and the person delivering it does not think they are being discriminatory. Nobody thinks Yoshi is going out of his way to be a jerk or anything. It is what he's doing, though.

(08-10-2013, 03:37 PM)Reppu Wrote: Quit with the power words like 'foolish'. You're hurting your cause every time you use strong words against your own fellows. We do not have to agree on the extent of things, but we're fighting for the same thing.

'Foolish' isn't a 'power word'. 'Toxic' and 'Unreasonable' are power words. Those ones are on you. You love power words.

(08-10-2013, 03:59 PM)Reppu Wrote: What is being asked is to put trust in Yoshida to deliver a favorable outcome. What is being asked is to understand the cultural difference, but not accept it. It is to show tolerance, but not tolerance to intolerance.

This is extremely misrepresentation. For one, no, I will in no way trust Yoshida. He is a business man out to get money. I don't think he's evil or a jerk or anything. I like him and what he does. I'm not going to trust him to not oppress, though, because he's already done so. I understand his culture and flatly deny it. I do not tolerate intolerance, nor will I tolerate the aspects of a foreign culture that cause intolerance. What, then, should I be tolerating in this situation? Yoshida's passive discrimination? To that I say: no.

(08-10-2013, 04:12 PM)Sylas Wrote: I'm saying that, and I'll bold it this time, why should a company care? The goal is to make money, not to make a statement or change the status quo.

(08-10-2013, 04:18 PM)Twinflame Wrote: I don't believe there are sides in here, so I wouldn't really accuse you of being on one. Apologies if I said something that might have implied such.

I think the conversation going on in here is kind of ridiculous at this point, since it's mostly people who say they agree with us telling us that we are making good arguments in the wrong way, which, how productive is that? Reppu has valid points dappled with disrespect and reactionary language, so it's not really going to get him anywhere. The crux is that certain folk seem to think this isn't worth getting angry about, or that discrimination hasn't happened yet. The mere suggestion that same-sex marriages might not happen portrays it as abnormal, so the discrimination has already occured.

Incidentally, I'd ask that people stop lumping Unity together. Unity has a lot of members in this community and we all have different opinions, even on this. Our opinions are given individually. It's not like I think Reppu is speaking for all the Blades of Nald'Thal.

(08-10-2013, 04:18 PM)Twinflame Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 04:07 PM)Meia Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 03:58 PM)Twinflame Wrote: I think you're over-accepting Reppu's mischaracterizations of things that have been said in this thread. They is actually very little vitriol being directed at SE over this. Are we calling them discriminatory? Yes. We are calling them that because that is how they are behaving. Are we being sensitive to Japanese culture? No. We are not Japanese and cultural aspects that actively discriminate against us do not warrant our sensitivities. If we have to fight against Japanese cultural norms, then we will fight against Japanese cultural norms.

Nobody in here, as far as I can see, has gone as far as to "act like a banshee". Instead we have been tactfully expressing our anger in ways that, while they no doubt exude frustration and offense, also communicate the source of that frustration and offense.

Certain people in this thread are just misrepresenting these as somehow exceptionally vitriolic or vehement, which they are not. The oppressed have every right to be angry, and anyone trying to misrepresent that as "toxic" or unreasonable is completely in the wrong. And besides, they're responding to tone, which is not debate.

May Rosa Parks analogy is not a response to the vitriolic accusations. It is applying Reppu's exact logic to an alternate situation. You cannot say that the logic applies to this situation but not that one, because that isn't how logic works. If Reppu's "respect the oppressor" logic doesn't work in all cases, then the logic is flawed.

I'm actually not taking sides. I have my stance and I have expressed it in other venues. I don't accept their culture, personally, but I understand where they are coming from. And I personally find it frustrating as well. (I didn't approve of a lot of the things that have gone on in my life due to prejudice against my race and orientation, but I understand why it exists. Understanding =/= approval or acceptance in any form.) My issue is with everyone focusing their energy on arguing with each other when that passion should be directed to SE.

I think Reppu has valid points as well as Unity. Do I agree more with one than the other? No. I think both could take from each other. The Japanese traditionalism is frustrating, upsetting, and not okay, but it is not the same as the religious extremism and execution of homosexuals in other countries. That is an analogy I cannot get behind.

And I'm willing to admit I was wrong in my interpretation of your intention with mentioning Rosa Parks.

I don't believe there are sides in here, so I wouldn't really accuse you of being on one. Apologies if I said something that might have implied such.

I think the conversation going on in here is kind of ridiculous at this point, since it's mostly people who say they agree with us telling us that we are making good arguments in the wrong way, which, how productive is that? Reppu has valid points dappled with disrespect and reactionary language, so it's not really going to get him anywhere. The crux is that certain folk seem to think this isn't worth getting angry about, or that discrimination hasn't happened yet. The mere suggestion that same-sex marriages might not happen portrays it as abnormal, so the discrimination has already occured.

Incidentally, I'd ask that people stop lumping Unity together. Unity has a lot of members in this community and we all have different opinions, even on this. Our opinions are given individually. It's not like I think Reppu is speaking for all the Blades of Nald'Thal.

(08-10-2013, 04:20 PM)Reppu Wrote: Even if that's accidental, and I damn well hope it is, we're not trying to destroy people's reputations here. End of the day; we're allies of differing limits.

(08-10-2013, 04:12 PM)Naunet Wrote: I'm going to have to request that you (and Reppu, and whoever else) stop lumping us together just because of a Free Company tag. Ildur is in Unity as well and actually disagreed with us. And that is okay.

Sylas Wrote:(...)why should a company care? The goal is to make money

(08-10-2013, 04:06 PM)synaesthetic Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 04:01 PM)Reppu Wrote: Being told to shut up and sit down warrants holding you head up high and pushing against the current.

Being told your view is understood and that the stance is being looked into? I, at least, believe this warrants joined empathy.

You don't know much about corporations, do you?

That response they gave us? That's Corporatese for "We don't give a flying fuck about your desires, because a) you are too small a minority to negatively impact our profits and b) most of you will buy our product anyway."

Corporatese is always polite, even when it's describing to you exactly how they are going to take their six-foot-long engorged penis and shove it directly up your virgin asshole.

(08-10-2013, 04:12 PM)Rock Sandbourne Wrote: Reppu nothing is absolute but I certainly would not be talking about Ice cream in a conversation about High end supercomputers especially not in a way to
-win- an argument or insult someone.

One can never take into account all of anyone. So I don't see the need to even have made the statement in the first place.


I'll be waiting on those pms with those instances you speak about.


Prove it.


Later

(08-10-2013, 04:19 PM)Yini Kihn Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 04:12 PM)Sylas Wrote: I'm saying that, and I'll bold it this time, why should a company care? The goal is to make money, not to make a statement or change the status quo.

I think this is an overly cynical view. Yes, Square-Enix is a company, but a company is made up of individuals that have their own thoughts and feelings and moral concerns. The developers absolutely take pleasure in satisfying their customers and want to make them happy for reasons beyond profit.

If they can be convinced that this is the right thing to do, I believe they'll do it regardless of whatever extremely minor effect it might have on their bottom line. The only reason they've not committed to doing so yet is likely much more due to a misplaced concern about offending their customers than it is about money.

(08-10-2013, 04:24 PM)Ildur Wrote: At least until we initiate the Blood Games of Blood where we will duke it out to know who is right...! Wait, what do you mean that's not how arguments should work...?

(08-10-2013, 04:22 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: Let's talk some empathy here, realtalk.

You want to 'understand and share' my feelings regarding my sexuality in the media? Rock on, I welcome it.

Ever feel like the absolute BEST case for most media is that they just ignore you, because the alternative is some really fucking disgusting stereotypes, so at least if they pretend you don't exist they can't actively insult you further?

Ever silently thank god when a character representing your sexuality just acts like a normal human being, because that's such a rare treat?

Is one of the reasons you love things like MMOs the fact that no matter what the devs put in, usually, you can just be a gay dude and since you're playing with other real humans instead of programs it doesn't matter the creator's views of gays because you can usually find a supportive environment?

How many times has 'we'll wait and see' meant 'we're going to ignore you' for something as basic as just acknowledging that you exist?

Do you often hear your sexuality tossed around as a casual insult, because that'd be a terrible thing to be after all, and at the very least in escapism you can just tune all that out?

That's why this sucks so much. This is one of the few refuges many of us has, and it's once again invaded by that big neon "YOU ARE NOT NORMAL" sign that follows a lot of us all our life.