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+--- Thread: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea (/showthread.php?tid=3437)
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - synaesthetic - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 05:36 AM)Reppu Wrote: And even if Square-Enix doesn't allow it? It's... not really discrimination.
just like whites-only lunch counters weren't really discrimination
amirite
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Reppu - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 05:57 AM)Yini Kihn Wrote:(08-10-2013, 05:19 AM)Clover Wrote: I'm not one of the people affected by it (I even believe that the marriage system in general is useless), but I *think* that their problem isn't limited to how this will affect their game experience. Many people have suffered from discrimination irl, and I imagine it makes them uncomfortable to, in a sense, see it reflected in-game as well.
That's exactly the point. Furthermore, the sort of comments I'm seeing here, e.g. "you can RP being married regardless", feel awfully reminiscent of the sort of "you can get a civil union and pretend you're married" comments I hear in real life. The parallels to and the reminders of real-world discrimination are what's upsetting people—or at least what's upsetting me—not the mere fact that I can't marry who I want in a video game.
(08-10-2013, 05:36 AM)Reppu Wrote: And even if Square-Enix doesn't allow it? It's... not really discrimination.
I sympathize with your desire to approach this in a constructive manner, but we must be honest about things: This is unquestionably discrimination based on sexual orientation regardless of whether one thinks it is justified or not.
Note what I said following this. "At least, I don't feel it's a major crap on my rights."
Just because I do not feel I am being discriminated, and only me, does not mean other people should also feel this way, and if they do not, that they are 'wrong'. ( To clarify due to english being quirky, no one is 'wrong' for not agreeing with me, sans for the extremes I point out below. )
I simply would not find it as discrimination, because I would be discriminatory toward the Japanese for being up-in-arms about their thousand-year-old traditions. Do I feel they are out-dated? Yes. But I am aware of how powerful traditions can be. I am aware that they are changing, and trying to brute force them, to witch-hunt thoughtcrime is not only injustice to it's core, but just flat out hypocritical.
I will not be discriminative to those who do not share my point of view, nor do I feel they are wrong unless they are purely intolerant, and only wish to see harm to me, my fellows, or anyone in between.
This? Is not only tolerance, but how the world needs to change it's viewpoint. Acceptance and equality is a front every side is fighting. No gender, no race, no sexual orientation is alone in this.
Just because someone is not actively fighting for me, does not mean they are actively fighting against me. Thoughtcrimes need to be put to an end, by those in the LGBT communtiy that practices it, and every other community between.
There is -nothing- wrong with neutrality. And to claim it only harms others, is witch-hunting.
TL;DR - I am not going to scream discrimination at every game with a marriage system for not allowing gay marriage, because I am aware of how protected the out-dated term 'marriage' is. I'd personally fight for this archaic, biblically-wrapped term into something far more acceptable for all parties to agree on, and to rob the zealotric-minded Christian purists of their weakest, but most powerful, defense.
You can't claim 'Man and Woman' if it's not so ludicrously protected by some out-dated text.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Saefinn - 08-10-2013
Same sex marriage may not be recognised in game, but we had one in FFXI, we were still able to get the rings, it just wasn't recognised in game. Me and an LS member thought it'd be fun, considering we jokingly hit on each other and other people, it seems like the next step in our 'relationship'. We had a whole ceremony, people brought gifts and it was a lot of fun, the whole LS got involved.Â
So if a straight guy can get married to a bloke, gay guys should be able to as well! If you want it to happen, I think you'll have to kind cheat the system a bit. Bear in mind, the game is set in the kind of period where such things might be outlawed...so maybe even Eorzeans look down upon it.
Of course it would be more ideal if it were allowed. People have worked around it where gay marriage has been illegal in the real world. Bear in mind, a world like Eorzea isn't without prejudice, I would probably try to make the best of it and use this restriction as part of RP. If SE remove the restriction, then great, but they never lifted it for XI.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Ashren Dotharl - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 05:53 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: Why should we wait? So Squeenix can take my money and then, oh, later on, after they've already gotten six months of subscription fees out of me, then they'll drop heteronormative-limited marriage into the game.If this is honestly enough to make you quit the game, allow me to show you where the door can be found. Do you act this way every time you don't get your way in a video game?
They should tell me now if they think I'm worthless so I can decide beforehand to take my money elsewhere.
Square-Enix is a business. FFXIV is a product they are selling. We aren't happy-time friends here, this is a business transaction. If they fail to make their product worth my money then I'm going to take my money directly to their competitors.
I apologize that this is a bit of an extreme post, but seriously this is so much unnecessary drama over such a small feature in the game.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Reppu - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 06:19 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote:(08-10-2013, 05:53 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: Why should we wait? So Squeenix can take my money and then, oh, later on, after they've already gotten six months of subscription fees out of me, then they'll drop heteronormative-limited marriage into the game.If this is honestly enough to make you quit the game, allow me to show you where the door can be found. Do you act this way every time you don't get your way in a video game?
They should tell me now if they think I'm worthless so I can decide beforehand to take my money elsewhere.
Square-Enix is a business. FFXIV is a product they are selling. We aren't happy-time friends here, this is a business transaction. If they fail to make their product worth my money then I'm going to take my money directly to their competitors.
There's no need to be hostile to them, due to their unique... manner of representing themselves in the LGBT community. While it is pointless and aggressive browbeating, they are within their rights. Although how far those rights go with hostilities and insults and such mannerisms varies from country to country, they are within their rights.
However, I feel there's a sense of amusement involved in the avatar usage of a character from the Touhou doujin series, that is based around the inability to be noticed unless actively forcing this state on others, and the ability to manipulate the subconscious of others to their desires.
It's almost telling, really.
(08-10-2013, 06:14 AM)Saefinn Wrote: Same sex marriage may not be recognised in game, but we had one in FFXI, we were still able to get the rings, it just wasn't recognised in game. Me and an LS member thought it'd be fun, considering we jokingly hit on each other and other people, it seems like the next step in our 'relationship'. We had a whole ceremony, people brought gifts and it was a lot of fun, the whole LS got involved.Â
So if a straight guy can get married to a bloke, gay guys should be able to as well! If you want it to happen, I think you'll have to kind cheat the system a bit. Bear in mind, the game is set in the kind of period where such things might be outlawed...so maybe even Eorzeans look down upon it.
Of course it would be more ideal if it were allowed. People have worked around it where gay marriage has been illegal in the real world. Bear in mind, a world like Eorzea isn't without prejudice, I would probably try to make the best of it and use this restriction as part of RP. If SE remove the restriction, then great, but they never lifted it for XI.
A common claim is that a developer stated Eorzea practices neutrality in terms of gender preferences. I am actively seeking this post as a way to try to push, with a gentle touch, toward gay marriage being allowed.
Until then, we can assume Eorzea is gender neutral, or more 'traditionally' set.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Clover - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 05:57 AM)Yini Kihn Wrote: That's exactly the point. Furthermore, the sort of comments I'm seeing here, e.g. "you can RP being married regardless", feel awfully reminiscent of the sort of "you can get a civil union and pretend you're married" comments I hear in real life. The parallels to and the reminders of real-world discrimination are what's upsetting people—or at least what's upsetting me—not the mere fact that I can't marry who I want in a video game.Well, I've suggested that myself as well, as I can't ultimately compare this with real life. In the end, this is a game with a limited system that lacks on many things, so you've got to use your imagination on many matters. Be it about marriage/having babies, be it about owning a magic shop in Limsa Lominsa, or be it about merely napping on the grass.
I believe that RPing the wedding ceremony is a good alternative (in a game). The other alternative is to do nothing; that's up to everyone.
Anyway, since many people wish for this system to be implemented, I hope it will.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Yini Kihn - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 06:11 AM)Reppu Wrote: I simply would not find it as discrimination, because I would be discriminatory toward the Japanese for being up-in-arms about their thousand-year-old traditions.
Not to haul out dangerous terms, but that only makes sense if you're a moral relativist. If you believe in right and wrong—that some things are good or evil independent of how a given set of people feel—then there's nothing discriminatory about thinking disallowing gay marriage is discriminatory. The term discrimination implies irrational prejudicial treatment based on lumping people into an arbitrary category, not merely disagreement as your post implies.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Reppu - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 05:57 AM)Yini Kihn Wrote: That's exactly the point. Furthermore, the sort of comments I'm seeing here, e.g. "you can RP being married regardless", feel awfully reminiscent of the sort of "you can get a civil union and pretend you're married" comments I hear in real life. The parallels to and the reminders of real-world discrimination are what's upsetting people—or at least what's upsetting me—not the mere fact that I can't marry who I want in a video game.
To comment further on this, I never said it was the best alternative, or an acceptable one. However, it is there if all else fails. Alternatively you can boycott the game, what have you.
It's not the desired outcome, but I'll have my wedding cake and eat it, too. Even if it's not 'officially supported'. As for why?
Because love, to me, transcends a slip of paper or social acceptance. But again, this is -me-.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Yini Kihn - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 06:22 AM)Reppu Wrote: A common claim is that a developer stated Eorzea practices neutrality in terms of gender preferences.
That is my understanding as well. Even if same-sex marriage is not implemented, I will certainly RP as if it's possible.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Reppu - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 06:30 AM)Yini Kihn Wrote:(08-10-2013, 06:11 AM)Reppu Wrote: I simply would not find it as discrimination, because I would be discriminatory toward the Japanese for being up-in-arms about their thousand-year-old traditions.
Not to haul out dangerous terms, but that only makes sense if you're a moral relativist. If you believe in right and wrong—that some things are good or evil independent of how a given set of people feel—then there's nothing discriminatory about thinking disallowing gay marriage is discriminatory. The term discrimination implies irrational prejudicial treatment based on lumping people into an arbitrary category, not merely disagreement as your post implies.
Isn't it discrimination to label SquareEnix as morally backwards as Russia and the Middle-East? Or is that just ignorance? Either way, it was meant toward the utter extremes being presented earlier in this thread.
Allow me to rephrase to people who are actually making rational parallels; I will not be insensitive to the Japanese culture's traditions, even if I do not agree with them. I do not have to accept them, but I do respect their own respect toward it.
And before this potentially gets twisted, no. I do not respect all ancient traditions. I simply admire that the Japanese, despite being so deep-rooted in tradition, are slowly making way for transition and change, while maintaining their traditions to the best of their ability.
This, to me? Is beautiful. Even if it takes a longer time than other cultures, it's still worth waiting for.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Ashren Dotharl - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 06:30 AM)Yini Kihn Wrote: The term discrimination implies irrational prejudicial treatment based on lumping people into an arbitrary categorySo... how does introducing a marriage system in a video game that doesn't include same sex marriage fit into this description? For all we know all the marriage system does is give you a quest that ends in some kind of cutscene or something and absolutely nothing else. Does not getting a cutscene make your fake video game relationshio somehow more fake? Does it make my fake in game relationship less fake because I got a cutscene?
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Yini Kihn - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 06:31 AM)Reppu Wrote:(08-10-2013, 05:57 AM)Yini Kihn Wrote: That's exactly the point. Furthermore, the sort of comments I'm seeing here, e.g. "you can RP being married regardless", feel awfully reminiscent of the sort of "you can get a civil union and pretend you're married" comments I hear in real life. The parallels to and the reminders of real-world discrimination are what's upsetting people—or at least what's upsetting me—not the mere fact that I can't marry who I want in a video game.
To comment further on this, I never said it was the best alternative, or an acceptable one.
Understood! Just to be clear, I was not attempting to single out anyone with that post. I was just trying to explain why many people will not find it to be a satisfactory solution.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Reppu - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 06:37 AM)Yini Kihn Wrote:(08-10-2013, 06:31 AM)Reppu Wrote:(08-10-2013, 05:57 AM)Yini Kihn Wrote: That's exactly the point. Furthermore, the sort of comments I'm seeing here, e.g. "you can RP being married regardless", feel awfully reminiscent of the sort of "you can get a civil union and pretend you're married" comments I hear in real life. The parallels to and the reminders of real-world discrimination are what's upsetting people—or at least what's upsetting me—not the mere fact that I can't marry who I want in a video game.
To comment further on this, I never said it was the best alternative, or an acceptable one.
Understood! Just to be clear, I was not attempting to single out anyone with that post. I was just trying to explain why many people will not find it to be a satisfactory solution.
Of course. As I said, I am trying to avoid enemies here, especially on Balmung. I do not have to agree with what is being said, but I am not trying to adamantly offend anyone for stating my thoughts or opinions in open debate.
Again, thoughtcrimes must end.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Yini Kihn - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 06:35 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote:(08-10-2013, 06:30 AM)Yini Kihn Wrote: The term discrimination implies irrational prejudicial treatment based on lumping people into an arbitrary categorySo... how does introducing a marriage system in a video game that doesn't include same sex marriage fit into this description?
Forgive my bluntness, I cannot believe that an honest and intelligent person would need this to be explained to them. Please think this over and ask again if you're unable to work it out for yourself.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Ashren Dotharl - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 06:38 AM)Yini Kihn Wrote:I'm sorry, I just don't see how them implementing a system into the game that most likely will not offer any benefit and will probably only be used by a fraction of the player base as being irrationally prejudicial or  lumping people into an arbitrary category.(08-10-2013, 06:35 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote:(08-10-2013, 06:30 AM)Yini Kihn Wrote: The term discrimination implies irrational prejudicial treatment based on lumping people into an arbitrary categorySo... how does introducing a marriage system in a video game that doesn't include same sex marriage fit into this description?
Forgive my bluntness, I cannot believe that an honest and intelligent person would need this to be explained to them. Please think this over and ask again if you're unable to work it out for yourself.
The only different between civil unions and marriage are primarily legal BS. No one in Eorzea is going to tell you that you can't be put on your partners insurance because you didn't use the official marriage system.