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Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - Printable Version

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Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - Salty Lake - 08-28-2013

I've been playing around on a few different classes because I'm still undecided what I'd like my main to be. I've been leveling arcanist on my main storyline quest, mostly because I wanted to start in Limsa. I actually really enjoy arcanist because I can do a little of everything, and soloing usually goes well.

I had my conjurer up to 31 from 1.0, and I've switched to conjurer a few times to get parties on duty finder because I'd just sit there waiting for a party as ARN/DPS. I didn't have any up-to-date gear for my conjurer, nor had I done the quest to unlock cure II etc., but I had a lot of fun healing and occasionally using aero/stone when the tank's health was full.

In FFXI, paladin was my favorite class to play, so I thought I'd want to be a gladiator/paladin as my main in AAR. I got my gladiator to level 15 tonight and did Tam-Tara until the servers went down for maintenance. My first party taught me how to mark, but for some reason duty-finder let us in with only three members and no healer, and I couldn't keep hate, so we all died. In my second party, I marked my targets and the archer would run in and pull before I could and do their own thing and ignore my marks. I shared hate between myself and the topaz carby, but felt bad that mobs would run off and get the DPS. I'd spam flash until I ran out of MP, but the DPS would pull her mobs out of my flash range. I found being the "leader" of the party challenging... I think I prefer healer roles! But maybe I should give tanking another try before I give up on it completely?

Maybe mauraders have an easier time than gladiators, too!

RE: Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - Korin - 08-28-2013

I'd go ahead and try it as a marauder! I did Tam-Tara yesterday with the slowest marauder tank in existence - but no matter how slow he was to react to...well, everything, he still managed to hold aggro. Looks like they have some nice AoE! We also had an archer who liked to pull EVERYTHING and the healer kept using an annoying knockback on our main target which was a pain for me, as a lancer...I'd have been more annoyed if I were the tank, though.

Are you on the PS3 or the PC? I find I'm a little too nervous about tanking on the PS3 because I -still- can't get a hang of the targeting...I cycle through about four NPC/Pet targets and several targets that i'm not even in combat with before I get to the one I'm actually trying to switch to. D:

RE: Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - Gar - 08-28-2013

As the servers were going down, I was about to get my Marauder to 30 and unlock Warrior. Ironically enough I have decided to switch to Gladiator for various reasons.

Now, let me preface anything I say with the fact that I have not tanked high end content in this game yet. This is all from things I have read and under lvl 30 dungeons.

First of all, in the first party you died because you had no healer, not because you were a bad tank. The second party was because you had a rogue DPS that actively worked against a smooth run. You shouldn't need to be spamming Flash.

If the DPS are pulling at all at that level, you're gonna have a hard time controlling the fight. The basic pull is Shield Throw/Tomahawk >> Flash/Overpower then go into your enmity combos (/damage combos if you're MRD)

Basically what I'm saying is you didn't get a fair chance because you had bad teams. You don't have Shield Oath/Defiance yet which boosts your enmity. Being a tank sometimes means taking charge and telling people how things need to work so you can survive the dungeon.

Tanking is definitely fun. Its about all I play. But it does take practice, some studying, and some confidence to tell a party how things need to be done.

EDIT: P.S. Learning to tank might be easier on Gladiator. Marauder is lots of fun and a great tank, it just has a lot more to keep on top of from switching between enmity combo/damage combo, to using cooldowns to get your HP back. (Berserk>>Second Wind, a PUG ability work well together. Bloodbath (HP Steal) and GLD's +Healing ability work well together too)

In your situations, it would have been about the same as a MRD.

RE: Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - Kyatai - 08-28-2013

What Garry said. 
No healer= no chance at victory.
Leroy Jenkins dps? Let them die if they want to try to tank & not listen.
Tanks always, always always pull first. As a rule, dps should hang back for a couple of seconds to ensure tank has hate, then jump in. If dps pulls hate -then- it's a tank issue. But If dps runs in too quick or pulls first, you have a crappy dps member.
As a rule, only time anyone other than tank hits an enemy first, it is for CC: sleep or sap , etc
Even then, good communication is in order. 
Don't blame yourself... Just get in a good group. Smile

RE: Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - Mtoto Wamoto - 08-28-2013

Gladiator is definitely the easier of the two classes to tank with. It's very "grab and go" so to speak because all the skill chains and routines are pretty basic.

In 1.0 I tanked mainly as as paladin, though I also took up warrior for the sake of speed and DPS (this is when speed runs mattered).

In ARR, I've been pretty exclusive to gladiator/paladin mainly because of my lack of want to make a new axe and also because of my love towards the changes made to the class/job. :p

Regardless of the being a gladiator or a marauder, as the tank, you definitely have to take charge of the party. Not only are you the front line of defense for your group, but you're also the one going to be marking targets and pulling them in. You have to be assertive in some cases, especially when DPS classes decide to start wailing on the mobs that aren't targeted or are are attacking out of order. Marauders are geared more towards aoe tanking while gladiators function better in single target tanking. 

There's a special kind of synergy that develops from each party setup, and as a tank, you have to be able to adapt to them. If a thaumaturge is in the party for example, be prepared for single target fights as the thaum sleeps things. If you have a pugilist in the party, be prepared to hold your ground more often in order to let the pug do his positional combos. Lancers and archers are high burst dps and can instantly steal hate if you aren't keeping up your enmity and damage output. You have to be able to see this and let them know when to ease off on their dps (they should be keeping an eye out for this too). Having a secondary tank or a topaz carbuncle changes the flow of the party dynamic too. In these cases, you and the secondary can bounce hate between each other while putting out more dps while still keeping the front line secure (gladiator does more dps with fast blade > riot blade. You get more out of this with fight or flight on.) 

A few things to keep in mind which should be the basic understanding in a party is that everyone needs to watch their enmity levels. True, the tank's job in a fight is to hold a mob, but he can't do that when DDs are pulling hate off of him by attacking out of order or letting their enmity levels go beyond what they should. Everyone should be held responsible for their own enmity now because there is a clear indicator for them to see it by. Second, healers shouldn't over heal! It is a waste of MP and the amount they overheal by is also added to their own enmity. A gladiator may have lower HP than a marauder, but they have far more defensive skills and damage mitigation to reduce the amount of healing they really need. Further, gladiators can cure themselves in a variety of ways > cure, physik, potions, hi-potions, second wind, blood bath, and mercy stroke all give back HP through various means. Paladin's are a bit more focused so they are barred from using the others healing skills other than cure and mercy stroke. 

Anyways, keep to it! The game needs more competent tanks, and the only way to get better at it is to keep up the practice.

Edit: Also, in the quests/dungeons up to level 20, you can effectivly run parties without a full on healer (i.e. conjurer) so long as you carry a stock of hi-potions and can second wind/cure. Thaumaturges and arcanist at this level are also competent healers. Not having a healer is detrimental to a party, but at the lower levels, it completely feasible to do. This can't be said to be true at the higher levels tho, so keep that in mind!

RE: Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - Aldeus - 08-28-2013

If you're having trouble with gladiator, you'll have a worse time with marauder more than likely.  That said, stick with it!  Practice makes perfect after all.  Paladin was my class of choice in FFXI as well, and naturally I thought I'd be a boss with it in ARR as well.  My first dungeon run made me think otherwise.  I did so badly that I thought I'd have to abandon being a paladin all together.  But I stuck with it, practiced, and now can hang with the best of them. 


http://eorzeareborn.com/tanking-basics-communicatio/

That's a link to a sight I found helpful for learning the basics of tanking in ARR.  Tanking is a very fun, very active role in a group, and if you work at it I'm sure you'll do a great job Big Grin

RE: Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - Myxie Tryxle - 08-28-2013

As I said in AST LS, next time you want to tank something, grab me, and I can help you out. I find most often the difference between a good tank experience and a bad tank experience is confidence. Grab some of us from AST or Intermission for a few runs, and we'll help you build confidence. Once you get the hang of it, tanking can be a lot of fun. Duty finder pickup groups tend to have some degree or combination of stupid, impatient, arrogant, and entitled, which makes for an aggravating learning curve when you first try tanking.

As far as the classes go, I haven't played either, but I've seen fantastic tanks of both classes and terrible tanks of both classes. I'd say try them both and see which one jives better for you. Ultimately, if you decide to stick with tanking, you'll want to level both because they both have great cross class utility for the other.

RE: Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - Kyatai - 08-28-2013

@mtoto:
I was not aware of the differences b/t tanks (still learning who the tank classes are in ARR) but sounds like just as a tank needs to be aware of the dps in their group, dps should recognize issues that might come up depending on tank class. I typically try to keep an eye on my aggro anyway, but if I knew certain tanks had more difficulty holding aggro when I do certain moves, or whatever, that would help me plan my attacks better.
I'm still learning myself, but what I posted above is what I've always been told when playing dps (mainly dps or healer roles, with some CC). Always up for more info to be a better team member. Smile

RE: Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - Brave - 08-28-2013

I LOVE TANKING.

I can understand your concerns though and trust me running with a group of people who are (for the most part) just as new to this as you are, can be a bit intimidating.  Everyone's learning the pulls, getting a feel for how their class plays, etc.

Rogue DPS get parties killed though and not having a healer also spells disaster.  It doesn't matter how quick they can knock an enemy out of the field if the next thing they target has already wittled them down to nothing. (or in the case of no healer wittled you down to nothing)

I've been reading up on a fellow RPer here named Sounssy and his tanking guide I feel pretty safe in saying is TOTALLY awesome.

http://distantworld.enjin.com/forum/m/5260755/viewthread/7653711-arr-tanking-guide-beta-iii

Both classes I think have their strengths and in the end it will all lead to your play style.  Don't lose heart though!  If you enjoyed tanking back in FFXI and still want to do it, then just get some experience under your belt and as you learn the pulls and mechanics of the game.  I haven't even hit the instance stuff yet because I'm trying to figure out which class will suit my play style more.  So props to you for getting in there and challenging yourself!

RE: Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - Eisen - 08-28-2013

I've always been DPS in every other MMO I've played but I'm pretty keen to end up a Paladin in FFXIV just for the different experience.

My biggest problem though is the idea of reading up on fights beforehand. I want to go into a dungeon and be surprised, feel like I'm exploring, etc Doing my homework on the fight mechanics before going in feels like reading a full synopsis for a film before watching it.

On the other hand though I don't want to be the cause of my duty finder party having a terrible run.

RE: Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - Cato - 08-28-2013

(08-28-2013, 04:46 AM)Kyatai Wrote: Tanks always, always always pull first. As a rule, dps should hang back for a couple of seconds to ensure tank has hate, then jump in. 

That depends - there's certainly exceptions here and there. So far my lancer has been tanking adds fairly frequently to prevent fresh and new tanks from being overwhelmed during their first dungeon runs. It's been a lot of fun, actually! Of course, it needs to be discussed with the tank first to prevent confusion and drama. From what I gather, though...many dungeons have situations where the tank is unlikely to be able to draw the attention of every single enemy joining a fight.

RE: Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - Salty Lake - 08-28-2013

Wow, I woke up to such encouraging and enthusiastic replies! Thank you everyone. I haven't been on these forums long, but I really appreciate this community. It is really refeshing to meet nice, supportive folks in a gaming community. I will try again today, and if anyone wants to join me in a dungeon, please send a tell! I might try a few instanced battles to practice before I go back into a dungeon. I will be on during the day and maybe late-evening, but have plans around dinner time. (I am in the Pacific time-zone.)

Myxie Tryxle, I appreciated your offer last night, and will look for you on today!

I think the DPS last night didn't speak English because she never said anything, and I didn't have time to look through the translator for something like "attack my target." I was only marking "1," but I will start marking 2 and 3 now, too. I think she was a lancer, but I might be mixing up my two parties.

I found this macro on Reddit last night that I am going to try: /ac "Shield Lob" <t> /mk "Target to Attack 1" <t> /p Pulling, please focus <t> (Has anyone started a thread for useful macros yet? If not, I will get on it!)

I have more questions, but I am going to reread this thread and study the links posted. I will try again today and report back on how it goes!

RE: Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - Salty Lake - 08-28-2013

OK, first question! From reading one of the guides, I learned that there is an "enmity meter." Is it the bar under the box with the class's icon?

RE: Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - FreelanceWizard - 08-28-2013

Yep! Well, okay, there's actually two enmity meters. Smile

The first one is under the class icon in the party list and it shows, for your current target, who's being attacked ("A") and everyone else's relative position in the threat list (2-4). The bars show relative levels of enmity, with a fuller bar indicating you're closer to being attacked.

Then, in the enemy group list, there's a set of glowing gems that indicate your relative position on the threat list for every enemy that has you on its list. Glowing red means you're being attacked; other colors (yellow, blue, and grey) indicate decreasing levels of enmity relative to other players on the enemy's threat list.

RE: Tried tanking tonight, not sure I like it! - Nevia - 08-28-2013

Just wanted to say that I shared some of your frustrations during my first bout of tanking last night.

I've always loved tanking, but was petrified from hearing some horror stories, as well as talk of people not liking Gladiator tanks that they grouped with.

However, I had two stunning groups and a mediocre one with Duty Finder to which I attribute to communication.  I feel communication is probably the most important part when playing with Duty Finder.

I let my party know from the beginning that it was my first time tanking (in this game) and that attacking my target was vital.  Being cordial about it seemed to help people do the same, but naturally, some people simply may not respond to you.

Those that didn't listen, I let tank (and nearly die) if they pulled aggro.  I only make sure that my healer is safe and kindly let them know that we can let disruptive DPS die, though I still make an effort to regain stolen aggro.

Also, the early levels can feel a bit rough since it may feel you do not have a complete kit for tanking such as the taunt which isn't given till level 22, and possibly any cross-class skills you may want later on.  

So hang in there as it will likely become better and easier for you.

And a macro thread would be amazing if you can put one together Big Grin  Good luck!!