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+--- Thread: Nobility in RP (/showthread.php?tid=5023)
RE: Nobility in RP - SessionZero - 10-12-2013
I think it's also important to denote that "nobility" is sometimes used as an all-encompassing term. Whether or not that is correct is semantic and not worth arguing. But the point is that many characters who claim nobility are simply from very wealthy families. For instance, Llaine's family is not technically, by law, noble. They're just ridiculously wealthy and influential, comparable to nobility.
RE: Nobility in RP - TheLastCandle - 10-12-2013
Teveriel's father comes from Ishgardian nobility, albeit a minor house. In truth, it has little impact on the way I play Tev (yet?) aside from further serving to fuel that lovely Wildwood Elezen pride.
RE: Nobility in RP - Faye - 10-12-2013
(10-12-2013, 06:36 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:(10-12-2013, 06:20 PM)Faye Wrote:(10-12-2013, 06:01 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:(10-12-2013, 05:36 PM)Faye Wrote: Sadly, I don't really know what can be done about it, but I don't see it as a reason to abstain from playing characters who are nobility or otherwise in positions of power.
Putting aside the other game for the moment, in most MMOs (including XIV), the problem is that you're asserting authority over another player's character and story without requesting their consent. For a lot of players, that's tantamount to godmoding, and it's no surprise to me that the reaction would be icy. It's similar to the problem of "player-run towns" -- a lot of RPers take the standpoint of, "Who gave you the right to tell me what I can and can't do? I didn't agree to that!" They don't recognize the authority because they don't feel it's appropriate or fair for you, as a player, to assert it in the first place. From an etiquette perspective, IMO, playing a character that asserts authority over other PCs without their consent is never a good idea.
As for nobility in general, I think the usual complaint is that it's often abused by those who want to demand respect and power IC without playing a character that would earn it; as such, it's gotten a bad reputation as a cheap Sue-ish trope at this point. That, I think, is the core of why most characters brush it off -- that, and you have no way to apply IC consequences to a random player who ignores it; your only only option is to walk away from the RP.
None of that is to say that noble concepts can't work, though. Usually, they work best if restricted to a group of like-minded (and consenting) players. Outside of that group, the concept needs to be set up so that it doesn't step on other players' toes. For instance, the house may be disgraced or otherwise cast down (which gives you a reason to adventure, too); it doesn't have any real power other than money and reputation (which would be the common case in XIV, which largely isn't feudal); it's in charge of an area that's "off the map" and so its authority doesn't apply to other PCs; etc.
I think you've... missed the point? No one here has said anything about ruling cities and I should hope that won't come up, because that's really silly. No one, myself or otherwise, has stated that our characters of nobility have been giving anyone orders, or expecting other characters to actually follow any such orders. Aside from her guild members ranking under her and her employees, my character, both in this game and in that previous MMO I mentioned, has never given anyone else orders. Â It's not "asserting authority," it's expecting others to have the decency to respect how you've made your character. If you met the President walking down the street, you may not obey what he says to you (though chances are, he won't be giving you any orders, much like the noble characters in question here), but I think you would at least stop and say, "Oh, wow... was that really the President?"
Giving a character political strength is no different than giving a character physical strength. If someone tells me his character is physically strong, I don't say, "Oh, your character is strong? Are you implying he's stronger than my character!? Are you implying he can force my character to do things!? God-modder! Power-player!!" Why? Because that's ridiculous. So why do the same thing when it comes to political and social influence? Someone giving their character a strength does not mean they think their character is stronger than yours in that aspect or in general, or that they intend to use that strength to lord over other characters. It's just an aspect of their character, and one that's polite to acknowledge should it ever come up IC.
I think you are perhaps misunderstanding what Freelance was saying.
The act of acknowledging that your character is nobility or a person of power puts the character who is acknowledging your power into your power.
Maybe a better way to put it is...if I ICly acknowledge your nobility/rule, I am giving consent that you are, in fact, that person in-character and you do, in fact, have authority over me. Â Many players either resent this, or flat-out refuse to do so, because they feel that it is a form of god-modding that you came up with the concept in the first place if you expect your noble status to affect their character.
God-modding because you didn't ask them specifically if they were okay with your background choices, etc.
Which is why Freelance also recommended that such RP be done among consenting players.
Acknowledging =/= respecting/obeying
It does not put any character under the power of the nobility. The other character could be of equal or greater social standing than the noble, the other could simply not respect nobility/authority, etc. Nobility is not supreme power.
A good example would be this: I live in a really small town. The mayor of our town, to the rest of the world, to the rest of the state, and hell, to a large portion of this city, is no one of great significance. (Admittedly, I forgot his name, even, until I just now looked it up--whoops). However, if I bumped into him unexpectedly on the street, I would be a little startled. I wouldn't be star-struck like I just met a celebrity. If he told me to bow down before him, I'd refuse. I don't care that he has higher social-standing than I do, and even with that "power" over me, he couldn't force me to do anything. Still, I would probably think to myself, "Whoa, I just randomly met the mayor, that's kinda weird."
Or an in-game example: One day at the Quicksand in Ul'dah, my character happened upon a Miqo'te woman calling herself a Princess. My character, of course, thought what most rational people would: "Why would a Princess be hanging around a seedy tavern proclaiming that she's royalty? What Princesses even exist in the world? Why would a Miqo'te be royalty?" My character rolled her eyes, but decided to play along and humor her. Did my character respect her? No way; she didn't even believe her. However, she did acknowledge her. Meanwhile, another character in the tavern acknowledged her in another way: in reverence and awe that he had met "royalty!"
However, most people seem to shrug off and ignore other character's titles entirely, like it had never been mentioned or heard. And if that's what your character would do because of his/her personality, that's totally okay--but that seems to be an unrealistically common reaction in role-play, which is what I'm trying to say.
You should not need to ask other people's permission and approval to RP your character how you wish. All characters have strengths or benefits that other characters may not possess. Is your character strong? Intelligent? Fast? Attractive? Talented? Most people can answer yes to at least one of those. Should you have to check with the people you're RPing with to make certain it's okay your character is attractive, for example, because their character may be unattractive so in a way you could be one-upping them? Of course not. That's a silly notion. Characters should not be equal on all grounds. If that were the case, we'd all be RPing essentially the same person. It's not "god-modding" to give your character strengths or positive traits.
(10-12-2013, 07:06 PM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: I'd love to see some genuine intrigue for a change instead of a constant string of extravagant parties and noble women shagging commoners with no meaningful consequences as a result of their antics. It's why I'm always so wary of people who choose to role-play a noble in MMO's. In the majority of cases it's done poorly and a lot of role-players do it in a way that allows their character to embrace all the perks and very few of the drawbacks that come with it.
It can be done well, of course, but that tends to be fairly rare. I'd be up for offering my grim Ishgardian noble for some intrigue based around what we can see in Coerthas, since I'd much prefer to work with what actually exists in the setting instead of copying and pasting the generic 'nobility' from elsewhere and fitting them into Eorzea. After all, the risk of being branded a 'heretic' as a result of an emerging scandal would make for some excellent role-play!
I agree with this entirely! It's a bit off-putting to see that so many characters who are meant to be "nobility" do not follow etiquette and break the social norms of high society, spend their time brawling, getting drunk, and sleeping with everyone, etc. and it's not even a point of conflict in their story. It's like the only reason for making their character nobility is to pull money out of the blue whenever they decide their character needs the funds for something and simply to say, "Hey, my character is important and can be fancy when he/she wants to be!"
That's why I think the purpose of this thread--sort of coordinating the nobility and setting up some "lore" of our own--could help ICly discourage that by actually giving rogue nobles some negative sanctions for their actions and set up some RP involving nobles who act like nobility.
RE: Nobility in RP - TheLastCandle - 10-12-2013
Admittedly, noble status also gives me ample excuse to have my character wear a cravat and spend more time preparing his absinthe than actually drinking it.
RE: Nobility in RP - Karaan - 10-12-2013
If you are looking any code of coduct for noble, use the real one that was create in the french era. Divide the noble in two class (Sword and Gown) Sword are military, blood heritage and the knight Noble (one everyone know, those who get call Blue Blood)
The Gown are rich and powerful merchant who bought their title to the King, but need to pay a due every year to keep it (way to have money)
Sword : can't work with their hand (this is ignoble to use your hand to work (no tailor, no carpenter, not blacksmith, nothing mostly other then learning the way of sword), most live with the money of their landship, if they act "ignoble" they lose their title as Noble and felt in disgrace
Gown : mostly can work (trade and merchant), but their title isn't a legacy so their childreen most pay the amount to the king to become a noble.
RE: Nobility in RP - LiadansWhisper - 10-12-2013
(10-12-2013, 07:55 PM)Faye Wrote: Acknowledging =/= respecting/obeying
But that's kind of my point. Â I don't understand why you can't seem to see that, other than maybe I'm wording it really badly.
Acknowledging that you are nobility in character is, in fact, doing just that. Â Now, that doesn't mean my character has to respect you, or obey you. Â But it does mean that in-character, I am accepting the fact that you are nobility, with all of the benefits that are supposed to come with that.
Quote:It does not put any character under the power of the nobility. The other character could be of equal or greater social standing than the noble, the other could simply not respect nobility/authority, etc. Nobility is not supreme power.
No, but if I'm playing a Commoner, or just an average joe, if I acknowledge that you are a noble, I would feel obligated to RP that out. Â And some people simply don't want to deal with it, so they aren't going to acknowledge you. Â Sorry, but there you have it.
Quote:A good example would be this: I live in a really small town. The mayor of our town, to the rest of the world, to the rest of the state, and hell, to a large portion of this city, is no one of great significance. (Admittedly, I forgot his name, even, until I just now looked it up--whoops). However, if I bumped into him unexpectedly on the street, I would be a little startled. I wouldn't be star-struck like I just met a celebrity. If he told me to bow down before him, I'd refuse. I don't care that he has higher social-standing than I do, and even with that "power" over me, he couldn't force me to do anything. Still, I would probably think to myself, "Whoa, I just randomly met the mayor, that's kinda weird."
Yeah, but you're still not getting it. Â No one is obligated to accept your RP. Â If they do, awesome! Â But some people may not wish to accept your RP as a Noble because, by extension, it would cause their characters to behave in a certain fashion and they either don't want to deal with it, or just flat out don't trust you to not abuse a situation like that.
Quote:Or an in-game example: One day at the Quicksand in Ul'dah, my character happened upon a Miqo'te woman calling herself a Princess. My character, of course, thought what most rational people would: "Why would a Princess be hanging around a seedy tavern proclaiming that she's royalty? What Princesses even exist in the world? Why would a Miqo'te be royalty?" My character rolled her eyes, but decided to play along and humor her. Did my character respect her? No way; she didn't even believe her. However, she did acknowledge her. Meanwhile, another character in the tavern acknowledged her in another way: in reverence and awe that he had met "royalty!"
Which is your choice. Â But, again, not everyone is going to do that. Â And you can't make them. Â And you shouldn't want to make them, because if it isn't fun for them, they shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
Quote:However, most people seem to shrug off and ignore other character's titles entirely, like it had never been mentioned or heard. And if that's what your character would do because of his/her personality, that's totally okay--but that seems to be an unrealistically common reaction in role-play, which is what I'm trying to say.
Probably has 0 to do with their characters, and everything to do with not wanting to deal with yet another person RPing a high falutin' noble. Â Their response is probably not at all IC, and has everything to do with OOC reaction.
Quote:You should not need to ask other people's permission and approval to RP your character how you wish. All characters have strengths or benefits that other characters may not possess. Is your character strong? Intelligent? Fast? Attractive? Talented? Most people can answer yes to at least one of those. Should you have to check with the people you're RPing with to make certain it's okay your character is attractive, for example, because their character may be unattractive so in a way you could be one-upping them? Of course not. That's a silly notion. Characters should not be equal on all grounds. If that were the case, we'd all be RPing essentially the same person. It's not "god-modding" to give your character strengths or positive traits.
Sure. Â But it goes both ways - if someone doesn't want to acknowledge your RP, then they don't have to. Â If you want to get the feedback of playing a Noble, you need to find a group of players who want to RP that aspect.
Quote:That's why I think the purpose of this thread--sort of coordinating the nobility and setting up some "lore" of our own--could help ICly discourage that by actually giving rogue nobles some negative sanctions for their actions and set up some RP involving nobles who act like nobility.
Your "lore" would be fanon, which is fine, but should not be labeled Lore (since it's not). As far as the rest, I don't think you're going to succeed in doing that in an MMO. How exactly are you going to "enforce" your rules? The only way this works is if you restrict it to a group that wants to be involved in this RP. It won't work if you try to apply it to people not affiliated with your group - no matter how "rogue" their actions may appear.
RE: Nobility in RP - Faye - 10-12-2013
(10-12-2013, 08:16 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
But that's kind of my point. Â I don't understand why you can't seem to see that, other than maybe I'm wording it really badly.
Acknowledging that you are nobility in character is, in fact, doing just that. Â Now, that doesn't mean my character has to respect you, or obey you. Â But it does mean that in-character, I am accepting the fact that you are nobility, with all of the benefits that are supposed to come with that.
Is it not rude to completely disregard what someone's character is meant to be? If someone tells me his character is a skilled fighter, I'm not going to think, "Oh no, he can beat my character up and physically force her to do things! I best never acknowledge that this character has physical strength and pretend that idea doesn't exist." Naturally, you can't force someone else to accept or acknowledge something about your character and I'm not saying you should try to make them do as much, but the point is, along with it being impolite for them not to, it also sort of breaks the immersion and the realism of the RP, and for no good reason, therefore it's disheartening and frustrating that it happens so rampantly.Â
People shouldn't be so terrified or appalled at the thought of another character being "above" theirs in a single aspect. RPing isn't about being the "best" or always being better than those around you in every regard, as ironic as that may sound for someone advocating that we pay attention when a character claims to be nobility. My character may be a Lady, but if a practiced fighter tries to take her on in a fist fit, my proper lady is going down, and she's going down hard. I fully realize why people don't accept the nobility of other characters--I just think it's petty and not at all fruitful for the RP, and should be avoided unless really justified/necessarily (I.E. If someone claims to be the arch-demon Son of Satan and Overlord of Hell and the most powerful person in the universe, feel free to ignore him).
Quote:Your "lore" would be fanon, which is fine, but should not be labeled Lore (since it's not). As far as the rest, I don't think you're going to succeed in doing that in an MMO. How exactly are you going to "enforce" your rules? The only way this works is if you restrict it to a group that wants to be involved in this RP. It won't work if you try to apply it to people not affiliated with your group - no matter how "rogue" their actions may appear.
Hence why "lore" was put in quotation marks and followed by "of our own." As I mentioned, the negative sanctions would be IC. If a noble is going around acting like a common thug, likely his peers among the nobility would shun him. If the RPer wants this to have no affect on his character and to continue acting like this? That's his choice, and no one will tell him to do anything otherwise (OOCly, that is). We're not trying to impose our RP on anyone else or force someone uninterested to be involved. And if he does decide to let the negative repercussions affect his character? Awesome, that will make for some great RP!
RE: Nobility in RP - K'dath - 10-12-2013
There's lots of good, decent discussion going on, really interesting stuff.
Now, a lot of my habits concerning certain RP archetypes and my willingness to interact with them comes from an established background of years of small scale RP in closed forums, and a few more years on WoW...
And I avoid the shit out of anyone RPing a noble anything. Most of the time the 'noble' RPers don't have any idea what the actual status of nobility entails with all its privileges and responsibilities. There's little to no actual political conflict at all and consists mostly of overly pretty boys and girls commenting on how fair the weather in Silvermoon is and how droll the commonfolk are. They defer to sensationalized imagery of masquerade balls and fairy tales with no grasp on the reality of they think they are playing. I've only met bad, ill-convinced, over the top trope characters who claim to be nobles.
I can be convinced to the contrary by a good concept and a solid follow through! But I would never approach or put myself willingly into a situation with this type of character.
For me, it has nothing to do with the whole 'implied consent' debate. If you approached me ICly and told me you were a noble, an experienced fighter, or a bloody dragon, I would have my character draw an independent conclusion based on his personal observations and react accordingly. Being something in your concept does NOT imply forcing people to acknowledge it until you have explicitly said or done something that puts the opposed character in a situation where they'll have to.
With my own character, if someone decked out in a pretty dress came up to him and for no reason at all said "I R A NOBILITY, RESPECT ME," his reaction would be something to the effect of "That's lovely. Good on you. Aaaand good for me that I'm not a resident of your quaint little hovel," and then bugger off. The implications of your power don't extend to him, he doesn't have to acknowledge them. He also thinks you're probably deranged because no person of good breeding wonders around in the streets shouting it at people.
If someone were actually, you know, not playing nobility like moron and conducted themselves accordingly, you'd get a very different reaction. Not because you've demanded or implied that I have to respect you, but because your behavior ICly commands a civil, respectful response. It's about believability and immersion, with me at least.
All of the above drawn from former experiences though, and has nothing to do with anything I've bore witness to with FF14. Yet. Just my own meandering thoughts on the subject, all opinions, and certainly not the definitive truth on the matter. I'd encourage you to do what you want, but temper it with logic and a little bit of research before you put yourself in a situation where you'll be making objective proclamations.
RE: Nobility in RP - Naunet - 10-12-2013
(10-12-2013, 07:25 PM)Natya Rudh Wrote: We know Ul'dah has nobility, we know Garlemald has nobility, Ala Mhigo, being a formerly independant nation, probably had nobility. Ishgard is not the only society in Eorzea with noble families, it is simply the one with the most emphasis on them.
We do not know Ul'dah has nobility. There is a royal family and there is the Syndicate, the latter of which is not hereditary but rather bought into with gil. Garlemald isn't Eorzea, so it doesn't apply. As for Ala Mhigo... I'm not sure why you think it being an independent nation implies it had nobility. That makes no sense. Feudalism is not the default state of an independent nation. We know that Ala Mhigo had a king but aside from that, none of the Ala Mhigan refugees you meet make any indication of their former home employing a social system based around family heredity of property and status.
(10-12-2013, 07:30 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: There are nobles in Gridania, although we know almost nothing about them.
Nobles or just significant families?
RE: Nobility in RP - Kylin - 10-12-2013
Just gonna drop this here >.>
http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=2368&pid=31595#pid31595
RE: Nobility in RP - Naunet - 10-12-2013
(10-12-2013, 09:44 PM)Kylin Wrote: Just gonna drop this here >.>
http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=2368&pid=31595#pid31595
I stand corrected regarding Ul'dah, though I disagree with how Squeenix is using the term "noble" and "lord" in their lore. I think it's worthwhile to point out that it might not be wise to RP a member of the Syndicate, considering how very much power that would entail; it would border on god moding and certainly would lean towards "sue"-ish.
RE: Nobility in RP - TheLastCandle - 10-12-2013
(10-12-2013, 09:40 PM)Naunet Wrote:(10-12-2013, 07:25 PM)Natya Rudh Wrote: We know Ul'dah has nobility, we know Garlemald has nobility, Ala Mhigo, being a formerly independant nation, probably had nobility. Ishgard is not the only society in Eorzea with noble families, it is simply the one with the most emphasis on them.
We do not know Ul'dah has nobility. There is a royal family and there is the Syndicate, the latter of which is not hereditary but rather bought into with gil. Garlemald isn't Eorzea, so it doesn't apply. As for Ala Mhigo... I'm not sure why you think it being an independent nation implies it had nobility. That makes no sense. Feudalism is not the default state of an independent nation. We know that Ala Mhigo had a king but aside from that, none of the Ala Mhigan refugees you meet make any indication of their former home employing a social system based around family heredity of property and status.
(10-12-2013, 07:30 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: There are nobles in Gridania, although we know almost nothing about them.
Nobles or just significant families?
More the latter, I think, unless I've missed something important. Gridania, more than Ul'dah and Limsa Lominsa, seems to be all about her citizen's individual cooperation to the benefit of the community. Some old prejudices remain, especially among the Wildwood population, but Gridanians as a whole seemed more tightly knit as a community than the other two cities. At least that's always been my perception.
RE: Nobility in RP - SessionZero - 10-12-2013
(10-12-2013, 09:50 PM)Naunet Wrote:(10-12-2013, 09:44 PM)Kylin Wrote: Just gonna drop this here >.>
http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=2368&pid=31595#pid31595
I stand corrected regarding Ul'dah, though I disagree with how Squeenix is using the term "noble" and "lord" in their lore. I think it's worthwhile to point out that it might not be wise to RP a member of the Syndicate, considering how very much power that would entail; it would border on god moding and certainly would lean towards "sue"-ish.
I'm sorry but I have to say it. You're disagreeing about how Squeenix uses terms in their own game, based on their own made up world?
RE: Nobility in RP - Naunet - 10-12-2013
(10-12-2013, 09:54 PM)SessionZero Wrote: I'm sorry but I have to say it. You're disagreeing about how Squeenix uses terms in their own game, based on their own made up world?
What, I'm not allowed to think it silly to use the term "noble" without the actual historical context of it? It's not like I'm disavowing the lore. I just wish Squee had used a different term to distinguish it from actual noble social systems like in Ishgard.
RE: Nobility in RP - LiadansWhisper - 10-12-2013
(10-12-2013, 09:40 PM)Naunet Wrote: Nobles or just significant families?
Nobles. Â There's a section of Gridania that is specifically labeled in quest text as the "nobles" quarter. Â And it's made very clear that because you are not a noble, you shouldn't be there.
(10-12-2013, 09:50 PM)Naunet Wrote: I stand corrected regarding Ul'dah, though I disagree with how Squeenix is using the term "noble" and "lord" in their lore. I think it's worthwhile to point out that it might not be wise to RP a member of the Syndicate, considering how very much power that would entail; it would border on god moding and certainly would lean towards "sue"-ish.
Why do you disagree with how Square is labeling people in Square's game? Â o_O