(03-01-2014, 01:11 PM)Ildur Wrote: "Of course that, when I say that to be an Ul'dahn noble you need to be rich, that 'you' means 'your character on a roleplaying level'. The actual ammount of gil you have mechanically speaking is irrelevant. But how much gil or properties or riches in general your character has in-character is relevant to him being or not an Ul'dahn noble. Once you have defined him as an Ul'dahn noble, you can go nuts with the concept. But your basis for the character has to be strong, and for it to be strong it needs to be consistent with the game universe."

On this part, I would disagree. In any game or story you create, it is your world, and how you choose to go about it depends on you, as the creator. Here I am speaking of the people who made FFXIV. One can use references from the real world to CREATE their world, but at the same time, they shouldn't have to adhere to policies and cultures of the real world. What I mean is, just because of something you know in the real world is used in your story doesn't mean it has to be exactly like it. It can be warped, transformed, or twisted however you feel you want it to be. That's why it's called fantasy and fiction, because while it's not true nor completely follows real life elements, it is looking at what we as human beings believe to be true or learn about OUR world in a different way, opening our minds to something entirely different, which is why I have a slight problem with people who base something that's not wholly explained or covered in the game on on something that's in real life, because I feel you are limiting yourself that way. I speak of just the creation of a story or system in general when it comes to these kind of things. And no Ul'dah is not the only place where you can be a noble, if that's what you're implying here.


"The limits imposed by lore create consistency. You can bend them and go farther than them as long as it is coherent and consistent with the game universe. The moment you go too far (and where 'too far' lies might vary depending who you ask) you risk losing your character's credibility. There's nothing stopping you from making a character who is a Shogun, but it doesn't fit in the world. People will wonder: "Why does this particular character who is beyond the defined limits of the game universe exist"? In this particular case, because there's no nobility system in any of the canon city states that uses that terminology or even that particular kind of feudal system. A Shogun wouldn't be coherent with the world.

Though if your particular RP group is okay with that kind of roleplaying then there's no problem. Just remember that most roleplayers like to work within a particular framework. Different groups will have different thresholds about how much bending (or breaking) they are willing to put up with."

Oh, I believe I explained and/or covered this part in one of my paragraphs, lol. :

"Many many things go into a character and story, and I feel some people don't realize that. A subject like nobility, or any subject for that matter, isn't determined by what SHOULD be or SHOULDN'T be that ISN'T explained OR created by the ones who MADE the game as canon, it is determined by your ability to create it as well as knowing HOW to create it and manage it in such a way that people can not only understand it, but be allowed to take part in it if they choose to and are allowed to. After all, you are creating something AND someone for millions of people to see and have a chance to interact with, knowing that you have to expect what can and, fortunately AND unfortunately, will happen."

If the lore or story mechanics have it, then that is how it has to be, because it's there and that's, quite simply put, the "ground rules." I'm not saying go AGAINST that, just to be careful not to mix what you know of the real world with a world that's fictional or fantasy, and even more so with a world that's not finished yet. That said I'm aware of how hard that can be. I believe it's a mistake to justify a concept that's not shared in the game you play with a concept in real life, because that's not what the game is about or trying to emulate. I think the real problem here is that people get excited about a concept, but then either ignore or lack too many details IN that concept for people to either not care, or not be able to understand the way it works well-enough to WANT to be a part of it. In other words I feel people don't put as much effort as they need to for it to be a valid and acceptable concept.

Quote:But, keeping RL elements out of a discussion about a game, people argue so much about what should be and what shouldn't be they forget what REALLY matters, and that's having the capabilities required to create something that is accessible to all, or at the very LEAST, make sense enough for people to understand and realize what it is.

"What REALLY matters is having fun. If creating characters that are consistent with the game world is not fun to you then, well, it is not fun to you and all discussions about lore will be useless as far as you are concerned. The reason those discussions exist, however, is because some of us like to create characters and stories that can fit properly in the world. And for that we have to know where the limits are. "

Oh, by no means am I saying it cannot be fun. You want to be able to enjoy what you create, so when someone or something limits that that is NOT part of the ground rules set by the world you're in, it becomes a problem, especially when there are others who are connected to what you created. I'm not sure, I think I got lost in my own words lol, I think the line between what can be in the game and what can be in a story disappeared in my explanation, and I started talking from a universal standpoint. But yeah, to be terse, If there are a set of rules in a story you are taking part of, then yes, it would be best to follow them unless you have permission to do otherwise. It's always important to have fun, because it's a game, and people are here to enjoy themselves. For me all I'm saying is, when you're creating a story and character, don't do it halfway through and just drop off all the details. If you love to write and create, there should be no problems with going the distance and covering anything and everything about your character, both when you make it and as you go along, before you take "leaps and bounds." 

(03-01-2014, 02:41 PM)Entity Wrote:

(03-01-2014, 01:11 PM)Ildur Wrote: "Of course that, when I say that to be an Ul'dahn noble you need to be rich, that 'you' means 'your character on a roleplaying level'. The actual ammount of gil you have mechanically speaking is irrelevant. But how much gil or properties or riches in general your character has in-character is relevant to him being or not an Ul'dahn noble. Once you have defined him as an Ul'dahn noble, you can go nuts with the concept. But your basis for the character has to be strong, and for it to be strong it needs to be consistent with the game universe."

On this part, I would disagree. In any game or story you create, it is your world, and how you choose to go about it depends on you, as the creator. Here I am speaking of the people who made FFXIV. One can use references from the real world to CREATE their world, but at the same time, they shouldn't have to adhere to policies and cultures of the real world. What I mean is, just because of something you know in the real world is used in your story doesn't mean it has to be exactly like it. It can be warped, transformed, or twisted however you feel you want it to be. That's why it's called fantasy and fiction, because while it's not true nor completely follows real life elements, it is looking at what we as human beings believe to be true or learn about OUR world in a different way, opening our minds to something entirely different, which is why I have a slight problem with people who base something that's not wholly explained or covered in the game on on something that's in real life, because I feel you are limiting yourself that way. I speak of just the creation of a story or system in general when it comes to these kind of things. And no Ul'dah is not the only place where you can be a noble, if that's what you're implying here.

(10-12-2013, 10:06 PM)SessionZero Wrote: We're in a game where we ride giant chickens and shoot fireballs out of our asses.

(03-02-2014, 01:16 AM)Entity Wrote: That said, can nobility ONLY be defined by wealth, or is that only because of that's how the game has defined and shaped the concept out to be?

(03-02-2014, 01:42 AM)PortiaBartel Wrote: It seems to me that it would...mostly depend on the people you are with, as to how seriously you take the lore into consideration and how much you're willing to overlook.

I think noble characters in general can be really interesting when thrown into a mix. It adds a different dynamic, say, one where the character might have had a more strict life, and grew up learning specific things like more about history and less practical things like how to sleep in the wilderness.

As for me, my character is slightly modified from regular RPs. So, the story is that she comes from a house in Gridania nobility, from central shroud. I like to think of it as a mix of family/wealth based...perhaps a few generations of merchants (I mean after all, merchants from Ul'dah would have to trade with merchants established in other areas? Just an example.) who established wealth and bought land.

I know lore might start playing into this if I took it too seriously...like how the twelveswood was apparently a living entity or something like that...then yeah, 'owning' land might have gone differently. Still, I care more about how this effects my character's habits, and the things she knows, and her ethics. Basically how she places a lot of self-worth in her ability to produce children and act motherly and lady-like.

(03-02-2014, 09:02 AM)Steel Wolf Wrote: My GOODNESS this has been a fascinating thread.  All.  Nine.  Pages. O_O

I would love to see a pair of noble houses play out intrigue and other social games in an RP setting, but more often than not it's simply used as an "easy" to form backstory for a character, in my experience.  I don't think less of the player for using the trope in their background, or even for mentioning that they still retain some level of Lordship in their current interactions, as long as they're not trying to pound the fact over one's head.

Honestly, nobility in an MMO has been done about as frequently as any other RP archetypal trope, so the existence of them doesn't bother me one way or the other.  Nobility in this game appears to be most heavily applied in Ishgard, but more implied in Ul'dah.  The way I see it, Ul'dah citizenry assume their noble standing through money, or as a survival tactic--I am so TOTALLY a noblewoman because honestly, what sort of regular street rat would wear this chiffon silken gown so please take me seriously please?  Ul'dah is a city of liars, refugees and the destitute all trying to not pile on top of each other while being piled on top of each other.  It's a fascinating city in that regard.

As for Gridanian nobility, I always got the impression that those in the Gentry Ward still cling to the city-state's isolationist stance, and refuse to acknowledge the changing world around them...thus they barred the gates and kept "commoners" out.  So, to that point, I think there still is a nobility there, but they're closed off, both literally and mentally, and the rest of Gridania simply rolls its eyes and carries on, ignoring the Ward's attitude.

It all can work out if planned properly, I agree, and I would love to see how some organized, thought-out and plotted nobility would play their little games of intrigue.  Steel would never get involved, but would definitely love to watch.  It could work, because, as was said earlier...

(10-12-2013, 10:06 PM)SessionZero Wrote: We're in a game where we ride giant chickens and shoot fireballs out of our asses.

So who's to say we can't see some in-game nobility attempt some little power plays?  :3

(06-28-2015, 12:11 PM)Arklonn Sargonnai Wrote: There's also the idea of poor noble. Outside of Ul'dah, and maybe even rarely in it, they can exist. Perhaps their house had a major scandal, or maybe it was sacked. Maybe another family assimilated theirs and they kept their old name and used what was left of their house's reputation to keep the loyal ones close. Or perhaps they're living off their name alone; finding a marriage partner in another house can be a big deal for a noble on hard times, after all. It was like that in Titanic, after all. The young lady was marrying another wealthy (douchebag) aristocrat because as her mother told her, 'all the money was gone'. I think the most fun with playing nobles is there's as many concepts for them as there are for normal lowborn or middle class RP characters. Not all of them are snooty and drink tea and talk about the unwashed commoners. There's a diversity there, and when different types of nobility interact, it's a glorious sight if played correctly. I love intrigue RP almost as much as combat RP, so seeing some noble stuff going on more often would be pleasing and fun.

(06-28-2015, 01:56 PM)Arklonn Sargonnai Wrote: True, but that also comes down to playing style. Some actually find it difficult to play more rough characters, even if they're not playing a fancy noble. For myself, it's difficult sometimes because I like to think I have moderately good grammar, spelling, speech abilities. Stepping out of the ability to have such things is hard because I grew up being literate at a young age, learned to read quickly and developed my writing skills early. It's actually harder for me to use impolite speech or write in things like accents (because I often forget to add said accents in speech, which is my own fault, but I digress).

To that end I generally play characters who have at least a rudimentary education, or come from a more middle class sort of background. Not wealthy, but not dirt poor either. If my character also has a profession, which most characters do that isn't mercenary or bounty hunter or something of that line, they generally have basic reading skills for processing orders or sending out things. But this is totally off topic, so I'll actually stop my summary there.


Adventurers I'd think, might find a reason to at least learn to read because after a while, people will start to fleece you if you can't. Even if not noble born, they might also have done work for them at one point, and likely would have had to learn certain skills. There's a whole spectrum of people who work with high class individuals that have to at least be able to do certain things, so I think it's not as unrealistic in-lore for *some* lowborn types to have gotten there on their own or through training, but at the end of the day I think a lot of it is player stylistic more than a fully even portrayal.