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+--- Thread: Summoners viable without facing Primals? (/showthread.php?tid=6013)
Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Nananomi - 01-02-2014
After two nights worth of interesting RP involving much in the way of research and reading, my dear Lalafell learnt about the wonders of Summoners and his desire to pick up the magicks they used has started to burn very very brightly.
Now, I haven't actually done anything about it yet, apart from the odd bit of research when he has the time, as I have absolutely no idea if it'd be acceptable to RP as one. Plus, I've found it difficult as it is to scrape up any lore on the fellows, apart from what's included in the two Summoner quests I've done so far.
But even then, in the Austerities of Earth quest, you end up facing off against a rival Summoner who also controls a manifestation of Ifrit, so I'm generally quite confused as to whether the requirement of facing a Primal is actually required or not. And if the follow up quests have more info on this, pardon my lack of knowledge and such.
So! I came here and decided to actually make a thread, in the hopes that I may receive some clarification on whether or not it'd be lore friendly to become a Summoner ICly after much in the way of hard work, without having personally battled against Titan, Ifrit or Garuda. Any help would be appreciated. <3
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Edgar - 01-02-2014
According to the this post...
Quote:Summoners (the job)
- Primal Slayers?
Not exactly. Summoners need only to perform a ritual to summon a Primals' egi, and then defeat that egi to bind it to them (yep, all they have to defeat is that mini Ifrit, Garuda or Titan you see floating behind them). It's made very clear that in the lore, the actual Primals themselves are not summoned and do not need to be defeated to obtain their egi.
- Origins
Summoners as we know them today actually practice arcane arts developed by Allagan mages. The term "egi" is an Allagan word meaning "pure" or the "essence of", so for example "Ifrit-egi" literally translates as "the essence of Ifrit". Allagan summoners basically found a way to siphon the essence of Primals and manifest this essence as an egi, which is bound to do their bidding.
Essentially, the defeating of the Primals may be more of a standalone gameplay element used to pad out the length of the Job's questline, rather than one supported by Lore.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - ansemaru - 01-02-2014
Seconding the "it's a gameplay convention that you have to defeat the respective Primal before gaining the ability to challenge their Egi" call. For that matter, most people tend to overlook the "exclusive" nature of promoted jobs for the sake of RPing a character with the combat role but not necessarily the narrative role- a Scholar doesn't have to be someone who's revived the lost arts of healing from Nym in RP, after all. So in the case of a Summoner, it's entirely reasonable to assume that they did the ritual to bind an Egi without having stared down Ifrit/Titan/Garuda personally.
There's, uh. Also a secondary way to gaining an Egi to summon that comes up in the level 50 quest for Summoner, but I don't really want to spoil it for you.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Nananomi - 01-02-2014
(01-02-2014, 02:40 AM)ansemaru Wrote: There's, uh. Also a secondary way to gaining an Egi to summon that comes up in the level 50 quest for Summoner, but I don't really want to spoil it for you.
Suppose I'd better hurry my levelling, then. D:
Anywho, thanks for the help you two, really appreciate it. <3
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Jomoru - 01-02-2014
For the scholar and SUmmoner line I assume the story element is the character playing out the "first" of the modern incarnations of the job, there was a bit of trial and error but now they are taught by their respective npcs or at least given directions on how one might become them.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Tla - 01-02-2014
So basically this makes of Summoner, seemingly to Scholar, not as much an exclusive job as it would seem. So what's left that should be hardly RPed at all? White Mage and Black Mage? I don't know much about the second, I just go from what I heard, while white mage in theory is something only padjal can be and in the story you are one just because you are the hero...but clearly fandom must be more elastic. Oh and Paladin I guess?
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Ildur - 01-02-2014
I have no idea why that post says that killing the Primal is not necessary, because it's a plot point for the Summoner questline: people who defeat a Primal are, in a sense, attuned to the Primal's aether. If I had to speculate why, I would say it's because of the massive ammounts of aether a Primal requires to be summoned in the first place: part of it would be irradiated in some sort of magical heat that affects the sorroundings, including people (or maybe only sentient beings). This 'attunement' allows the Summoner to tap on the Primal's essence and extract an egi.
This might seem like you can't be a summoner icly, but you can work around it by bending lore a bit: instead of attuning yourself to the Primal's energies directly, you could go to a place where you could find the Primal's essence in great quantities of the enviorement. You could also do exactly what the storyline says: you defeat the Primal IC. The lore allows for them to be summoned as often as the beast-tribes can (or, in other words, as often as the plot demands) so it is quite plausible that your character was on one of the groups sent to dispatch the Primal.
ansemaru Wrote:There's, uh. Also a secondary way to gaining an Egi to summon that comes up in the level 50 quest for Summoner, but I don't really want to spoil it for you.
I have finished that questline and I don't remember any secondary way to get an Egi.
Tlamila Wrote:So basically this makes of Summoner, seemingly to Scholar, not as much an exclusive job as it would seem. So what's left that should be hardly RPed at all? White Mage and Black Mage? I don't know much about the second, I just go from what I heard, while white mage in theory is something only padjal can be and in the story you are one just because you are the hero...but clearly fandom must be more elastic. Oh and Paladin I guess?
I am on the school of thought that, if the game allows you to be X, then you have a right to roleplay X if you want. Sadly, Squee screwed with us by making their plots around the "THOU ARE THE HERO", so we have to bend lore to make things work.
In the case of White Mages, we have to say that Padjals have been teaching the art for some time now and that many of their students went on to teach it, too.
I have no idea how the Black Mage storyline goes, but you would apply the same idea.
As of Paladins, they can be roleplayed without problems with the given lore: it is stated as soon as you start their storyline that player Paladins are 'Free Sultansworn', who are not really bound to obey the Sultansworn but to hold their moral code, making them basically knights errants.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Jomoru - 01-02-2014
(01-02-2014, 06:30 AM)Tlamila Wrote: So basically this makes of Summoner, seemingly to Scholar, not as much an exclusive job as it would seem. So what's left that should be hardly RPed at all? White Mage and Black Mage? I don't know much about the second, I just go from what I heard, while white mage in theory is something only padjal can be and in the story you are one just because you are the hero...but clearly fandom must be more elastic. Oh and Paladin I guess?
White mage. You are correct.
Black mage it seems like while the questline is unique its not unrepeatable by others.(Basically research research research)
Scholar and Summoner I'd argue can properly be initiated via their new orders, though if you want to go outside them.. you're probably going to have to fight some Primals at least for Summoner. The Garleans may presumably have theirown summoners though obviously they can't be pure breed Garleans since Pure breeds can't use real magic.
Dragoon is all manner of chosen one mary suetasticness. And seems especially unecissary for such to the point I'm willing to ignore the lore.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Kendha'to - 01-02-2014
Much like roleplaying the Echo, I don't see anything inherently wrong with RPing a character as a Summoner/Black Mage/White Mage so long as the player respects the lore behind them without resorting to "Chosen One" tropes. It can be done. RPing a character as both a Black and White Mage would raise my eyebrows, though.
(Plus, honestly, locking out "classic" Final Fantasy jobs from RP just seems plain un-fun to me. I'm playing an FF MMO for a reason here!)
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Jomoru - 01-02-2014
(01-02-2014, 11:35 AM)Kendha Wrote: Much like roleplaying the Echo, I don't see anything inherently wrong with RPing a character as a Summoner/Black Mage/White Mage so long as the player respects the lore behind them without resorting to "Chosen One" tropes. Â It can be done. RPing a character as both a Black and White Mage would raise my eyebrows, though.
(Plus, honestly, locking out "classic" Final Fantasy jobs from RP just seems plain un-fun to me. I'm playing an FF MMO for a reason here!)
I wouldn't be too ready to look ascew at someone who is a blm and Whm since Yoshi said one idea for future content would be "Advanced jobs" with Red mage being a suggestion that would require both black and white mageness.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Kendha'to - 01-02-2014
(01-02-2014, 02:34 PM)Jomoru Wrote:True. Don't get me wrong, I just think it would be unusual to have complete mastery of both. Red Mage is something I'd love to see. But it implies a certain "jack of all trades, master of none" amalgam of black and white magic - at least, traditionally. We don't know how the class will work in FFXIV yet. I just hope it retains the blending of sword and spell that defined the class in the past.(01-02-2014, 11:35 AM)Kendha Wrote: Much like roleplaying the Echo, I don't see anything inherently wrong with RPing a character as a Summoner/Black Mage/White Mage so long as the player respects the lore behind them without resorting to "Chosen One" tropes. Â It can be done. RPing a character as both a Black and White Mage would raise my eyebrows, though.
(Plus, honestly, locking out "classic" Final Fantasy jobs from RP just seems plain un-fun to me. I'm playing an FF MMO for a reason here!)
I wouldn't be too ready to look ascew at someone who is a blm and Whm since Yoshi said one idea for future content would be "Advanced jobs" with Red mage being a suggestion that would require both black and white mageness.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Jomoru - 01-02-2014
(01-02-2014, 03:09 PM)Kendha Wrote:(01-02-2014, 02:34 PM)Jomoru Wrote:True. Don't get me wrong, I just think it would be unusual to have complete mastery of both. Red Mage is something I'd love to see. But it implies a certain "jack of all trades, master of none" amalgam of black and white magic - at least, traditionally. We don't know how the class will work in FFXIV yet. I just hope it retains the blending of sword and spell that defined the class in the past.(01-02-2014, 11:35 AM)Kendha Wrote: Much like roleplaying the Echo, I don't see anything inherently wrong with RPing a character as a Summoner/Black Mage/White Mage so long as the player respects the lore behind them without resorting to "Chosen One" tropes. Â It can be done. RPing a character as both a Black and White Mage would raise my eyebrows, though.
(Plus, honestly, locking out "classic" Final Fantasy jobs from RP just seems plain un-fun to me. I'm playing an FF MMO for a reason here!)
I wouldn't be too ready to look ascew at someone who is a blm and Whm since Yoshi said one idea for future content would be "Advanced jobs" with Red mage being a suggestion that would require both black and white mageness.
I am saying that Advanced jobs might be the next big bump since job quests do pretty much work out by 50(just like class quests end with 30) Â If Oracle or Sage or Red Mage builds off of a 50 BLM and a 50 WHM it might become problematic for the rp community if we've built up a "you can't be a WHM and a BLM' when suddenly there's a bunch of things that require both(same for being good at magic and combat that might be required for True redmagery or mystic fencing etc)
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Kendha'to - 01-02-2014
*shrugs* I'm not here to tell anyone what they can or can't do. All I was observing is that the two magicks have entirely different schools of thought surrounding them. Black magic seems to have quite the stigma attached to it, given its penchant for destruction and being connected to the Void, unless I'm mistaken. I'm no lore expert and I haven't done either the BLM or WHM job quests. It just seems like it would be an unusual (but again, not impossible) scenario to successfully master both IC. Such a character would inspire awe from my own simple Miqo'te hunter. *grins*
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - ansemaru - 01-02-2014
In re: alternate methods to get an Egi-Â
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Jomoru - 01-02-2014
(01-02-2014, 04:13 PM)Kendha Wrote: *shrugs* I'm not here to tell anyone what they can or can't do. All I was observing is that the two magicks have entirely different schools of thought surrounding them. Black magic seems to have quite the stigma attached to it, given its penchant for destruction and being connected to the Void, unless I'm mistaken. I'm no lore expert and I haven't done either the BLM or WHM job quests. It just seems like it would be an unusual (but again, not impossible) scenario to successfully master both IC. Such a character would inspire awe from my own simple Miqo'te hunter. *grins*
the FF series has long had multiple school casters much less so than its D&D predesssors which put a hard break between Divine and Arcane magic. With the possibility of future content being based around being a multiple school master pushing the idea that its particularly hard to be both, or harder to be both than say an archer and a Lancer is problematic.