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Clarification of the Law (Ul'dah) - Renault Delumiere - 02-01-2014
So since it's been a relevant topic as of late, I'd like to share with you a little bit of lore so that we can all be RPing as accurately as possible...
When it comes to the law, there is only a single group of people actually able to make arrests, and that is the Brass Blades. The Sultansworn and The Immortal Flames DO NOT uphold the law, though they abide by it for obvious reasons.
To break it down:
Immortal Flames = Military
Sultansworn = Royal Guard
Brass Blades = Law Enforcement
That's not saying the two former parties could not get involved in stopping crime, but they would not take the path of arresting the criminals. The Immortal Flames would likely only get involved if they felt the scoundrel was a true threat to the city in terms of war (think, stopping a murderer.) The Sultansworn would likely not get involved in any of this trivial nonsense unless the criminal party was a threat to Ul'dah's royalty (assassins and the like.)Â
Please keep this in mind when you are out there playing your characters.
RE: Clarification of the Law (Ul'dah) - Aldotsk - 02-01-2014
> Brass Blades
> Part of Monetarists
> Funded by Lolorito
Ul'dah was dying anyways.Â
What you said isn't wrong. But that is why the scale of Ul'dah exists to balance the scale and the triangular system of politics. Brass Blade also tends to monitor mostly outside of Ul'dah capital than in the city. They are mostly guards that protect the Thanalan stations, while it is right for Sultansworns and Flame guards to watch over the capital and make sure nothing funny is going on. Any crime activities in the city is considered as a threat to the city even if it may not be a term of war since it affects the citizens to be harmed in any way. Also the law of Ul'dah states that the Sultansworns are to take action if the matters can be a threat to the royalty and council such as cultist activities or group of crime syndicates.
Who even dares to wear Brass Blade anyways?
Quote:The Brass Blades are an Ul'dah-based military unit charged with the defense and maintenance of Thanalan's various Aetheryte encampments. Though once also responsible for patrolling the region's mines, this task has since fallen to the Stone Torches.
Newly inducted members of the Brass Blades are presented with a ring, worn to signify their new position. Each time a member of the Brass Blades is promoted, he is presented with an armband worn on the upper arm. The number and type of the armbands signify the Blade's current rank. Gemmed medal are also awarded to Blades who exhibit bravery above and beyond the call of duty.
RE: Clarification of the Law (Ul'dah) - McBeefâ„¢ - 02-01-2014
As far as analogies go, I view Ul'dah as the following, using real world equivalents in my home city.
Brass Blades = LAPD
Sultansworn = FBI
Flames = Military.
Depending on the situation, all 3 groups can and have done law enforcement in the city. As an example, obviously US troops are not police, but they were called in to patrol the streets during the LA riots. FBI don't normally have jurisdiction, but can act in special cases.
As far as jurisdiction goes, I view my characters jurisdiction (I play a sultansworn) in general terms as "anything inside the city that people want me to be involved it". Although I draw the line and small minor things, because of the analogy above.
Several times there have been drunken bar fights and stuff in front of her, or other minor crimes, and other players ask "Are you going to stop that" and my response is basically always "Not my job, call the blades if you want a bouncer". Another time a character walk-up RPed me that their wallet had been stolen, and they needed help, all my character did was show them where they could talk to the blades.
What my character does get involved with (She says she's on special detachment), are issues that are either too large or too delicate to entrust to the blades. Much like her on earth, I assume that large criminal syndicates can merely just pay off the blades, who are often shown to be corrupt. The whole point of the Sultansworn is that they are basically the one force in Ul'dah that works off of loyalty, not money, so I feel its a perfect fit to tackle things like organized crime. I've lost track of the number of times people have offered my character "Gifts" and gotten turned down.
My character also deals with more violent issues, like strings of unsolved murders and such, that keep killing the blades when they go investigate. In those case I think it makes sense to be involved because Sultansworn individually are a lot tougher than the blades, also my character usually involves the flames as well for more manpower.
Speaking of the Flames, I don't think it's unreasonable for them to patrol the city. During the main quest someone says something like, "It's a shame that the Flames, the heroes of carteneau have to keep order in the streets". Ul'dah is still technically at war, and although the garleans have been pushed back, the beastmen grow bolder every day. Judging by that cutscene, I think martial law of some sort is in effect, so while Flames probably aren't snooping around arresting people, they would be within their rights to keep public order in the city.
Now all of this aside, my character sorts of interrogates lots of people that she has no business interrogating. However I always make sure to smile and say "Just asking questions" and that they can leave. Of course I hint that I already have dirt on them, and they are better off speaking to me. If my character does find some stuff out, then she normally will do a more in depth investigation, and possible detain and arrest people. I prefer this lengthy approach, because it gives the other player plenty of opportunities to indicate they don't want me involved in their Roleplay, before it gets to anything serious (it normally happens over several days/meetings). Also a lot of the time, I don't actually really want to arrest the persons character, I just want to create drama. It's one thing for your character to be worried about their friends activities, it's another for the sultansworn to start breathing down your neck about it. So yeah, generally most people (not everyone) tend to enjoy what I do, so I tweak the lore a little bit (sultansworn on special detachment) to make it work.
RE: Clarification of the Law (Ul'dah) - Ildur - 02-01-2014
My take on this is that, since this is a quasi-medieval society, all of the organizations might be expected and have a duty to uphold the law wherever they are. They are all, in a sense, military groups. The only differences are where their jurisdictions lie and their reach.
Stone Torches are the most limited, since their authority starts and ends with mining operations. Brass Blades follow by being the police of Thanalan and Ul'dah (most of the NPC guards in the city are Brass Blades and not Immortal Flames). The Sultarnsworn are basically a sort of praetorian guard who answers to the Sultana and so they can probably just barge in and trample all over the other two groups.
But they are also charged with keeping the law in the upper, richer levels of Ul'dah, as evidenced by all NPC guards in the Husting Strips being Sultansworn. The Immortal Flames' are basically the military, being in the outskirts of the Ul'dahn nation and defending it from foreign threats.
With all that said, I think that Sultansworn and Immortal Flames who witness crimes in, for example, an Ul'dahn alley will have the authority and even the duty to take immediate action. However, what they don't have is the authority to take matters out of the Brass Blades hands (unless it's a matter of military or royal importance, naturally). This means that they can make an arrest but their involvement in the matter ends when they hand the prisoner to the proper law enforcement organization. Thing that basically happens when the criminals are thrown in a cell.
RE: Clarification of the Law (Ul'dah) - Renault Delumiere - 02-01-2014
(02-01-2014, 05:45 PM)Ildur Wrote: My take on this is that, since this is a quasi-medieval society, all of the organizations might be expected and have a duty to uphold the law wherever they are. They are all, in a sense, military groups. The only differences are where their jurisdictions lie and their reach.
Stone Torches are the most limited, since their authority starts and ends with mining operations. Brass Blades follow by being the police of Thanalan and Ul'dah (most of the NPC guards in the city are Brass Blades and not Immortal Flames). The Sultarnsworn are basically a sort of praetorian guard who answers to the Sultana and so they can probably just barge in and trample all over the other two groups.
But they are also charged with keeping the law in the upper, richer levels of Ul'dah, as evidenced by all NPC guards in the Husting Strips being Sultansworn. The Immortal Flames' are basically the military, being in the outskirts of the Ul'dahn nation and defending it from foreign threats.
With all that said, I think that Sultansworn and Immortal Flames who witness crimes in, for example, an Ul'dahn alley will have the authority and even the duty to take immediate action. However, what they don't have is the authority to take matters out of the Brass Blades hands (unless it's a matter of military or royal importance, naturally). This means that they can make an arrest but their involvement in the matter ends when they hand the prisoner to the proper law enforcement organization. Thing that basically happens when the criminals are thrown in a cell.
Pretty much hit the nail on the head. The only difference in opinion I have is that the Sultansworn/IF would not actually arrest the wrong doer. They'd probably either kill him off, or drag him to the Brass Blades. The latter is more or less what you said, but I wanted to clarify just in case.
RE: Clarification of the Law (Ul'dah) - Illira - 02-01-2014
(02-01-2014, 06:01 PM)Renault Delumiere Wrote: Pretty much hit the nail on the head. The only difference in opinion I have is that the Sultansworn/IF would not actually arrest the wrong doer. They'd probably either kill him off, or drag him to the Brass Blades. The latter is more or less what you said, but I wanted to clarify just in case.
Why would they kill the criminal? Just because they are more of a military organization doesn't give them that right. The only time in which that may be an acceptable solution to an intervention of a criminal and/or his activities is if he/she presents a clear and present danger to the officer and others. It may happen as a fluke sometimes, or as a result of rare over-zealous officer, but doing so is certainly not Standard Operating Procedure.
In a normal circumstance that we are discussing, they would seek to subdue the criminal and cart him off to the Brass Blades so that they can deal with him.
RE: Clarification of the Law (Ul'dah) - Renault Delumiere - 02-01-2014
(02-01-2014, 06:44 PM)Illira Wrote:(02-01-2014, 06:01 PM)Renault Delumiere Wrote: Pretty much hit the nail on the head. The only difference in opinion I have is that the Sultansworn/IF would not actually arrest the wrong doer. They'd probably either kill him off, or drag him to the Brass Blades. The latter is more or less what you said, but I wanted to clarify just in case.
Why would they kill the criminal? Just because they are more of a military organization doesn't give them that right. The only time in which that may be an acceptable solution to an intervention of a criminal and/or his activities is if he/she presents a clear and present danger to the officer and others. It may happen as a fluke sometimes, or as a result of rare over-zealous officer, but doing so is certainly not Standard Operating Procedure.
In a normal circumstance that we are discussing, they would seek to subdue the criminal and cart him off to the Brass Blades so that they can deal with him.
I'd say it depends on the manner of the character...
But the lore states pretty clear that the Sultansworn have become a bunch of corrupt scum.
RE: Clarification of the Law (Ul'dah) - McBeefâ„¢ - 02-01-2014
(02-01-2014, 06:53 PM)Renault Delumiere Wrote: But the lore states pretty clear that the Sultansworn have become a bunch of corrupt scum.
I don't think that's true at all. The Paladin questline shows more that many of the Sultansworn just aren't very politically savvy and are being manipulated by outside forces. Once the commander of the sultansworn realizes what is going on he is not ok with the situation. I think most sultansworn are the same way.
RE: Clarification of the Law (Ul'dah) - Aldotsk - 02-01-2014
Sultansworns are diverse by corrupts and goods. Just like real life. However, Ul'dah is really nothing but FFXIV version of Gotham to many perspectives. In the end, Sultansworns don't kill their suspects or innocent people. They are to arrest and put the criminals on trial. IF they were to kill, the only way is if the criminals commit resist by turning themselves to be void sent or attempt to harm others and act on trying  to murder someone. Sultansworns are not going to raise their weapons first. That's one part of lore that has not changed like every other paladins.Â
Also it's kind of funny how a criminal character is trying to teach us how Ul'dah's security and politics work.
RE: Clarification of the Law (Ul'dah) - Ildur - 02-01-2014
(02-01-2014, 06:53 PM)Renault Delumiere Wrote: I'd say it depends on the manner of the character...
In a way, it does. However, what a character as an individual decides to do (murder a criminal, in this case) is not a concern of this discussion, but the legal reach of each different law enforcement branch. Basically, the question here is not "what would they do?" but "what are they legally allowed to do?"
RE: Clarification of the Law (Ul'dah) - Illira - 02-01-2014
To be clear I did say: under Standard Operating Procedure.
In no way, even amongst a group of primarily corrupt officers, is the S.O.P. is to simply kill criminals. Its messy, provides bad press, and in most cases isn't actually the best solution (for instance: why kill someone when you can extract bribes? [perhaps to make an example of them, but thats a whole different discussion]).
As Ildur just beat me to saying, what an individual does is different than what their organization, or the law dictates. And -no one- is above the law. Though their crimes may be passed over because the entire system is corrupt. But this doesn't mean that what they did isn't illegal, and doesn't go against S.O.P.
----
Side Note:
I have stakes on both sides of the line of being an honest law-enforcement agent and a corrupt one. Two of my characters are Brass Blades (one former and one present). My main had been removed from her post as a captain because she worked zealously against the Syndicate who have their hands in the law enforcement. While one of my alts was seated into the post after her because he is corrupt and malleable to the underworld's interests.
RE: Clarification of the Law (Ul'dah) - K'nahli - 02-01-2014
I always thought the Sultansworn were more like the Secret Service but I'm not very lore savvy. I'm just going by what I've seen in-game.
RE: Clarification of the Law (Ul'dah) - Renault Delumiere - 02-01-2014
(02-01-2014, 07:23 PM)Aldotsk Wrote: Sultansworns are diverse by corrupts and goods. Just like real life. However, Ul'dah is really nothing but FFXIV version of Gotham to many perspectives. In the end, Sultansworns don't kill their suspects or innocent people. They are to arrest and put the criminals on trial. IF they were to kill, the only way is if the criminals commit resist by turning themselves to be void sent or attempt to harm others and act on trying  to murder someone. Sultansworns are not going to raise their weapons first. That's one part of lore that has not changed like every other paladins.Â
Also it's kind of funny how a criminal character is trying to teach us how Ul'dah's security and politics work.
Because one of my characters is a criminal does not mean I am a criminal.
RE: Clarification of the Law (Ul'dah) - Rook - 02-01-2014
Considering the overuse of Adventurers in Eorzea and the degree to which they operate in the affairs of city-states, it can be assumed that anyone with sufficient investment can apprehend a criminal to be turned over to the Brass Blades. Immortal Flames and Sultansworn acting outside of their specific duties wouldn't be empowered to act anymore than any other citizen.
However, no one likes their toes being stepped on, especially an organization with as much corruption as the Brass Blades (a fact that doesn't invalidate their authority). If a member of the Flames, the Sultansworn, or an Adventurer apprehended someone without a bounty, they may be subject to punishment for overstepping their bounds. Actually killing a criminal would get the offender arrested by the Blades, regardless of what other position they hold, pending a trial (or bribe) to prove that they acted in the interest of the city (or the Syndicate's agenda).
Ul'dah isn't a lawless city where people are murdered in the streets daily. There are heralds that announce murders and the Brass Blades' investigations into the crimes. They don't like other people doing their job, and they have the power to act against the people that try. The Immortal Flames and the Sultansworn have their respective duties, and those don't include murdering suspected criminals in the streets.
RE: Clarification of the Law (Ul'dah) - Aldotsk - 02-02-2014
(02-01-2014, 08:52 PM)Renault Delumiere Wrote:(02-01-2014, 07:23 PM)Aldotsk Wrote: Sultansworns are diverse by corrupts and goods. Just like real life. However, Ul'dah is really nothing but FFXIV version of Gotham to many perspectives. In the end, Sultansworns don't kill their suspects or innocent people. They are to arrest and put the criminals on trial. IF they were to kill, the only way is if the criminals commit resist by turning themselves to be void sent or attempt to harm others and act on trying  to murder someone. Sultansworns are not going to raise their weapons first. That's one part of lore that has not changed like every other paladins.Â
Also it's kind of funny how a criminal character is trying to teach us how Ul'dah's security and politics work.
Because one of my characters is a criminal does not mean I am a criminal.
This man seems to laugh at his own sarcasm and jokes, but doesn't seem to catch someone's joke/sarcasm. :U