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Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Printable Version

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Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Gwenneth - 07-27-2014

Good evening! (Or afternoon! Or morning!)

I found myself musing on the subject and subsequently digging through the forums here, but have been unable to find anything concrete.  Is it possible, within the realm of the game's lore, for a Conjurer to to gain an understanding of the elements "used" by a Thaumaturge?  Fire, Ice, and Lightning are still forces of nature--albeit destructive ones--but I'm curious as to what Stillglade Fane and its teachings might have to say on the matter. 

Is it possible to learn from and harness those elements while ICly bypassing the teachings of the Thaumaturge guild and what thaumaturgy is?

While I don't plan on "mapping out" Reima's IC life in Eorzea (as I'd prefer to let the world and her experiences with others shape that), I as the player have Summoner as my favorite Final Fantasy class and would love to try it out (even if only OOCly) at some point.  And, with what Reima wants to learn about herself and the world, I can't say that the other DoM classes are out of the realm of possibility--I just want to make sure that no matter what happens in her "life", I can still be lore-friendly.

Thank you!

RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - LiadansWhisper - 07-27-2014

Yeah, you knew I'd reply.  xD

Personally, I RP Liadan as being unable to control Fire, Ice, or Lightning, because those spells simply don't exist in the Conjurers' list.  They seem to be wholly focused on Earth, Air, and Water, and to ignore the others.

There's also the little fact that Thamaturge magic seems to be anathema (in some ways) to Conjury.  Thaumaturgy is generally extremely destructive, and kind of goes against the whole "calm in the middle of the storm" thing that Conjurers appear to strive to be.

RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Gwenneth - 07-27-2014

And reply swiftly you did!  xD  Thank you!

I was feeling as much based on all of the context clues being thrown around by the game itself, but goodness knows if there was something I wasn't aware of.

Must consume ALLLL the lore.  *twitches*

RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - ArmachiA - 07-27-2014

(07-27-2014, 08:44 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Yeah, you knew I'd reply.  xD

Personally, I RP Liadan as being unable to control Fire, Ice, or Lightning, because those spells simply don't exist in the Conjurers' list.  They seem to be wholly focused on Earth, Air, and Water, and to ignore the others.

There's also the little fact that Thamaturge magic seems to be anathema (in some ways) to Conjury.  Thaumaturgy is generally extremely destructive, and kind of goes against the whole "calm in the middle of the storm" thing that Conjurers appear to strive to be.

Everytime there's a thread with Conjurer or White Mage in the title I try to tell her about it so she goes to answer. Liadan caught this one first though *Snap* Darn.

RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Gwenneth - 07-27-2014

(07-27-2014, 08:58 PM)ArmachiA Wrote:
(07-27-2014, 08:44 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Yeah, you knew I'd reply.  xD

Personally, I RP Liadan as being unable to control Fire, Ice, or Lightning, because those spells simply don't exist in the Conjurers' list.  They seem to be wholly focused on Earth, Air, and Water, and to ignore the others.

There's also the little fact that Thamaturge magic seems to be anathema (in some ways) to Conjury.  Thaumaturgy is generally extremely destructive, and kind of goes against the whole "calm in the middle of the storm" thing that Conjurers appear to strive to be.

Everytime there's a thread with Conjurer or White Mage in the title I try to tell her about it so she goes to answer. Liadan caught this one first though *Snap* Darn.

If that's the case I'm just going to have to start PMing Liadan directly with sad emoticons and photos of baby animals whenever I have conjurer conundrums.  xD

"Please halp..  ;__;"

[Image: kitten-16219-400x250.jpg]

RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - LiadansWhisper - 07-27-2014

xD

I was turning this around in my head for a bit (while eating steak...omg nom nom nom) and was thinking...

Earth negates Lightning, Water negates Fire, but does Air negate Ice? o_O

I feel like we need Captain Planet. Cactuar

RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Gwenneth - 07-27-2014

Now that you've summoned up my 90s nostalgia (and made me hungry!), I'm sitting here trying to make Air vs Ice work.  Curses!

I'm wondering too, back to the lore standpoint, as to the conjurers' and hearers' views on arcanima and the harnessing of the Primals.  I know about the place and reception of both as far as the whole world goes, at least to a degree, but getting specific about it helps develop my character's own views and prepare for potential choices down the road. 

I mean, a person could well have personal or external reasons for delving into new lines of study, but now I'm curious about conflicts similar to those with thaumaturgy.  Especially since the other forms of magic don't involve drawing from the elementals.

So much thinking. *shakes fist at sky*

RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Boo the Hamster - 07-27-2014

(07-27-2014, 09:15 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: xD

I was turning this around in my head for a bit (while eating steak...omg nom nom nom) and was thinking...

Earth negates Lightning, Water negates Fire, but does Air negate Ice? o_O

I feel like we need Captain Planet. Cactuar
There used to be a book called "Essences and Permutations - A Treatise of the Six Elements".  In it were the the three conquests and the three submissions.

In short, Earth grounds Lightning, Water Erodes Earth, Lightning boils water for the three conquests.  The three submissions are 'Fire is Extinguised by Wind, Ice is melted by Fire, and Wind is obstructed by Ice.'

Not sure if the book still exists in 2.0, but it might be around Ul'dah or Limsa Lominsa for my best guesses.  Probably the Arcanist guild in Limsa, but wouldn't know the location in Ul'dah.

As for if one could learn both thaumaturgy and conjury, I would believe it to be possible, though I would expect either an older character or an exceptionally talented one to do that.  There are ways one could somehow use the elements of the other school of casting, like elementally attuned weaponry or maybe an alchemical method with shards/crystals/clusters, but that would be all the information I know.  It's mostly speculation or debatable on that end honestly.

RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Kismet - 07-28-2014

I have it in Astrid's backstory that she tried to practice thaumaturgy once but utterly failed at it... with the exception of ice magic. I figured that if conjurers are adept with water, why couldn't they freeze it as well? Also, if we're including mechanics in this... Blizzard II is a cross-class spell CNJ/WHM can use, so knowing that, I didn't think it was too much of a stretch. That's just my two cents.

RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Yssen - 07-28-2014

(07-27-2014, 08:30 PM)Reima Wrote: Good evening! (Or afternoon! Or morning!)

I found myself musing on the subject and subsequently digging through the forums here, but have been unable to find anything concrete.  Is it possible, within the realm of the game's lore, for a Conjurer to to gain an understanding of the elements "used" by a Thaumaturge?  Fire, Ice, and Lightning are still forces of nature--albeit destructive ones--but I'm curious as to what Stillglade Fane and its teachings might have to say on the matter. 

Is it possible to learn from and harness those elements while ICly bypassing the teachings of the Thaumaturge guild and what thaumaturgy is?

While I don't plan on "mapping out" Reima's IC life in Eorzea (as I'd prefer to let the world and her experiences with others shape that), I as the player have Summoner as my favorite Final Fantasy class and would love to try it out (even if only OOCly) at some point.  And, with what Reima wants to learn about herself and the world, I can't say that the other DoM classes are out of the realm of possibility--I just want to make sure that no matter what happens in her "life", I can still be lore-friendly.

Thank you!

There is nothing that says they cannot (other than the mechanics of the game not letting you cross class lightning spells anymore). They are just elements that Conjury does not focus on. In fact, the only real difference as far as lore for the different magic styles is source, approach, and philosophy.

Thaumaturgy draws on the caster's own inner aether to produce effects, while Conjury from the natural aether flowing around them. The MP cost of Conjury spells and such is technically the caster paying back the area around them from their own aether. There is a whole thing in the Conjurer quest line that talks about this stuff. Beyond that the two styles are just vastly different philosophically, what with them both being representations of the primary religions and religious practices of their home city-states.

This not to say that there are not some abilities and skills that would be exclusive to Thaumaturgy, Conjury, and Arcanistry. Conjurers have little need for the Astral Fire or Umbral Ice forms, from a lore stand point. Likewise, Conjurers would have not need for an ability like Convert, since they draw their power from what is around them rather than an inner reserve.

I hope some of this has been helpful. ^ ^

RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Mr.Phyllo - 07-28-2014

Just a quick observation:

At the same time that the elements of conjure can negate the elements of thaumaturgy, if you switch the order around:

Air strengthens Fire
Water compounds on Ice. 
(And scientifically speaking) lightning comes from the Earth as an overcharge of static electricity. 

Just my little side note. :3

RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Boo the Hamster - 07-28-2014

(07-28-2014, 03:10 AM)Addison Hines Wrote: Just a quick observation:

At the same time that the elements of conjure can negate the elements of thaumaturgy, if you switch the order around:

Air strengthens Fire
Water compounds on Ice. 
(And scientifically speaking) lightning comes from the Earth as an overcharge of static electricity. 

Just my little side note. :3
It doesn't work that way.

RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - No Longer Exists - 07-28-2014

Greetings!

Black Hat here with some mildly stormy brain-things! (It's 6:30am, what do you want from me?)

Galen, I play as a "sage" and I do this because of the way his progression and his story have come about. Primarily, for PvE, he runs about as a BLM slinging spells but in RP, he's not so fond of dropping PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWAH down on people's heads. It's just rude.

However, through RP, he's studied both Conjury and Thaumaturgy. Arcanimae is too much math for his liking (Alas, never an Archmage), BUT! It has caused me to consider this very question before and so I give you my gilded answer!

I believe one could have a fundamental understanding of the basic elementals through conjury with some training. One doesn't necessarily need to be a thaumaturge to have aetherical talent, so being "sensitive" would make sense. While the game touts the three DoM classes and four DoM jobs as stand alone (With the exception of Arcanists SCH and SMR), the lore roots aren't that different.

And for those wishing to branch out in RP between the two diametrically opposed classes, Galen has learned how to "shift" his aether from one pole to the other. While he doesn't lose his knowledge of all things aetheric in doing so, he loses access to the specific "signatures" of Thaumaturgy when his aether reserve is polarized toward Conjury and vice versa. Thus, I couldn't RP him casting Cure spells with one hand and slinging Flare with the other because that would be silly. Aether-shifting, like any other useful ability, takes time to master and usually takes what I consider a "turn" or 1 action to activate much like Thaumaturgy's Transpose.

Also note that it could be said that Arcanimae is the bridge between the two, as evidenced by the cross-class abilities available to us spellslingers. 

Hope that helps!

Cheers!

-Black Hat

RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Aduu Avagnar - 07-28-2014

for the purpose of the elements I present to you the elemental wheel:[Image: ffxiv-elemental-wheel-key1.png]

RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Nebbs - 07-28-2014

All very scholarly.. I would offer an alternative based on Chakra and I understand the Monk has some elemental sides?

These are the normal colours but we could switch in the FF colours in
  • Thought (Spirit)/Violet - Enlightenment/Spiritual/Wisdom
  • Light (Luminescence) /Indigo - Intuition/6th Sense
  • Ether/Blue - Creativity/Openness/Healing 
  • Air/Green - Love/Warmth/Forgiveness
  • Fire/Yellow - Willpower/Anger 
  • Water/Orange - Sexuality/Needs/Desire
  • Earth/Red - Survival/Root/Base
I do use this as the basis for my characters alternative view on things, and use of crystals to heal by balancing the body's flows etc..