(11-29-2014, 05:30 AM)mantraofyosuga Wrote: I've just recently been informed that being a dragoon is "special snowflake" "gary stu/mary sue".

Is it strange that a character could possibly work with all he had to become said Dragoon? Why is it not strange that there are monks, scholars, white mages, etc, jobs that do not even exist anymore, are running around?

I have never once run around with an air of superiority as a Dragoon. In fact, it is never even really mentioned. But for some reason, you're automatically deemed "special snowflake" for something your character suffered to become but is instantly regretful of doing so.

I'm not sure how I should word this, I just don't understand why with every miqo'te running around as a Nunh and a million sultansworn and undercover Garleans, that being a Dragoon is such an awful thing.

I guess this post is really me complaining, but I would like an answer or opinion.

(11-29-2014, 05:30 AM)mantraofyosuga Wrote: I've just recently been informed that being a dragoon is "special snowflake" "gary stu/mary sue".

Is it strange that a character could possibly work with all he had to become said Dragoon? Why is it not strange that there are monks, scholars, white mages, etc, jobs that do not even exist anymore, are running around?

I have never once run around with an air of superiority as a Dragoon. In fact, it is never even really mentioned. But for some reason, you're automatically deemed "special snowflake" for something your character suffered to become but is instantly regretful of doing so.

I'm not sure how I should word this, I just don't understand why with every miqo'te running around as a Nunh and a million sultansworn and undercover Garleans, that being a Dragoon is such an awful thing.

I guess this post is really me complaining, but I would like an answer or opinion.

Quote:"LORE-FRIENDLY" OR NOT JOBS

(09-24-2014, 12:07 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: WHY YOU MAKE ME WORK SO HARRRDDDD??

(09-23-2014, 03:27 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: On topic of OP, I've participated a lot in these discussions, but I don't know why there HAS to be a need to roleplay Jobs over Classes. Jobs come with all these sorts of gray areas and lore-breaking implications. Why not just be a lancer over a dragoon? Why not a gladiator over a paladin (unless you want to play Sultansworn)? Why not pugilist over monk? Other than a very small amount of differences, they're effectively the same.

I quote this mainly because not all classes and jobs are "effectively the same." Actually very few of them are as far as lore is concerned. With that in mind, let's head into class vs job lore.

To start out, the term "classes" refers to Eorzean specific professions that are commonly used in Eorzea today. "Jobs" on the other hand, (with a few notable exceptions) refers to legendary disciplines of times past. Times past might be 100 years in the case of some, it might be 5000 years in the case of others. However, all of these jobs have made a recent comeback in the 7th Umbral Era. Without further ado:


Gladiator - Refers to a Coliseum-hired fighter. These people make their living by fighting on the Bloodsands for profit, glory, or to free themselves from bondage. Though the Coliseum is known for teaching the way of the sword, not all Gladiators use a sword. A Gladiator can use any weapon.

Circa the year 1562 6AE, the Bloodsands played host to a tournament that would change the fate of the Gladiator's Guild forever. Two friends, Ul'dah's champion, Greinfarr the Great (referred to in 2.0 as The Bronze Bull) and J'moldva the Hellfire Phoenix, champion for the Ala Mhigan refugees seeking asylum within Ul'dah, fought the greatest duel in Coliseum history. Both champions were formerly undefeated by any adversary, and the amount of gil waged on the outcome of the fight was said to be greater than all the gold in the Sultana's coffers. But as the match went on, the crowd was whipped into a violent frenzy. A riot broke out, putting both gladiator and bystander in danger. But just as things were about to go from bad to worse, the two gladiators struck each other down, causing an abrupt end to the violence for fear of who would be the victor. Finally, Greinfarr the Great stood and claimed glory for Ul'dah, in order to save it from being torn apart.

Since that day, the Coliseum has never seen the same popularity. So it was that it fell into decline and in order to drum up interest, the Coliseum started importing vicious beasts from Ishgard and other foreign lands for the Gladiators to fight.

Paladin - Refers to members of the Royal Guard of the Sultanate. Formed roughly 800 years ago by Jhal Tristam and two other knights, the Sultansworn have protected the throne against all threats. In recent years, to combat the growing threat of the Monetarists' corruption, the Sultansworn have begun teaching their 800-year art to adventurers who swear their allegiance not to the Sultana, but to the Paladin's Oath. These new Paladins are referred to as "Free Paladins."


Marauder - This term refers to axe-wielders, the famed weapon of pirates in FFXIV lore. Similar to how we see eye-patch/peg-leg = pirate, Eorzeans see axe and think pirate. However, not all marauders are pirates, just as not all people with peg-legs are pirates. Marauders make up a large portion of Limsa Lominsa's navy, and many other marauders go on to do mercenary work abroad.

Warrior - Refers to the old art of unlocking the Inner Beast within us all and embracing and harnessing its power. Warriors were once common throughout Eorzea, however, the art fell into disuse after The Autumn War 100 years ago due to a lack of necessity for the art. Now it is believed to only reside within a few villages nestled in the Hellsguardian homeland, Abalathia's Spine. It is said that Warriors of old would attempt to wrestle bears to the ground in order to tame them.


Lancer - Refers to one who wields polearms. While the Wailing Barracks is known Eorzea-wide for being home to some of the world's greatest lancers, it is not the only place where lancers are common, nor is it the origin of the art. Ala Mhigo, before its fall in 1557 6AE, actually boasted the greatest lancer legions the world had ever seen. A force which, during the Autumn War, was able to battle the combined forces of Gridania, Ishgard, Ul'dah, and Limsa Lominsa effectively.

Ishgard is also well known for their history with the lance. Their patron deity, Halone, is represented by three spears. The lance is said to be the traditional weapon of the Templars as well as the famed weapon of Ishgard's champions, The Azure Dragoons.

Dragoon - Refers to "The Azure Dragoon," the champion of Ishgard. One Azure Dragoon is chosen by Nidhogg's Eye every generation for the last 1000 years. This person is subjected to the full might of the Dragon King's magic, for it is their destiny to once and for all vanquish Nidhogg and lead Ishgard against the Dravanian Horde. Once the Azure Dragoon is chosen, a ceremonial and functional weapon called the Gae Bolg is crafted using dragon bone. A special set of Drachen Mail is imbued with magic-dampening powers and given to the Dragoon just so that they might feel some reprieve from Nidhogg's influence and won't be driven to madness by dragon magic.

This person is not to be confused with an Ishgardian "Dragoon," who is a Knight of Ishgard that proves to the Holy See that they have slain a dragon. This title can be bestowed upon any Knight or Templar and matters not whether they use a spear or sword. Any Player Character can kill a dragon and call themselves a Dragoon, however, you are not officially a Dragoon unless you are Ishgardian. Likewise, you can do what the Player Character does in the DRG Storyline and GRAVEROB THE TOMBS OF DEAD AZURE DRAGOONS and steal their armor and weapon and call yourself a "Dragoon." However, the Holy See of Ishgard does not even recognize the MSQ Player Character as the Azure Dragoon despite being chosen by Nidhogg's Eye because we are not Ishgardian. Go back to Ser Alberic in Coerthas and talk to him. It's quite interesting. He states that never in all Ishgardian history has the Holy See been without an Azure Dragoon to lead them.


Pugilist - Refers to the debt collectors of the Platinum Mirage. The Platinum Mirage is a Vegas-styled exclusive club for only the most elite of Ul'dahn elite. Like Vegas, if you can't pay your due or you try to cheat the Mirage out of money, the Pugilists will sort you out. Giving rise to their motto: "A closed fist drops no gil."

Monk - Refers to those members of the former Order of the Fists of Rhalgr. This Order trained both mind and body in an effort to achieve greatness in the eyes of the Destroyer. However, as their religious and political influence grew greater and greater in Ala Mhigo, the then King of Ala Mhigo, Theodoric, now known as the King of Ruin, began to fear the Fists of Rhalgr, so 1552 6AE, he ordered his lancer legions to surround the Temple of Rhalgr and they slaughtered all within and burned the temple to the ground. Men, women, and children fell to the King of Ruin's madness. Though this secured Theodoric's hold on power, it sewed the seeds for civil unrest throughout Ala Mhigo, eventually resulting in the fall of the city-state to the Garlean Empire.


Archer - Refers to bow users. These are common enough all over the world. There is, however, a racial distinction made between Elezen archers and Miqo'te archers. Elezen archers are masters of the Longbow, while Miqo'te archers are masters of the Shortbow. Those rangers of the Gods' Quiver are noted as the best in the Shroud, if not the world.

Bard - Refers specifically to archers of old who used music to inspire and invigorate their fellow soldiers on the battlefield. The practice fell into disuse roughly 100 years ago during the Autumn War. Since that time, Bards have used their gift more within taverns than on the battlefield.

One Bard of note, Gilbert the Godsbow was said to have slain seven Ixali chieftans with a single arrow. Because his love of song was well known, a unique bow harp was crafted for him and he was bestowed the title "Godsbow." Gilbert's Artemis Bow was on display within the Archers' Guild until it was stolen in an Ixali raid on Gridania.


Thaumaturge - Refers to those practitioners of the Order of Nald'thal. Thaumaturges trace their routes back nearly 3000 years ago to the original Magi of the 5th Astral Era. Modern day Thaumaturges are deeply invested in the study of Life and Death and the cycle of aether in between the two. This duality persists through all Ul'dahn culture and because of this, the Order acts as the religious and political center of Ul'dah. Thaumaturges are the city-state's morticians as well as their lawmakers.

Black Mage - Refers to practitioners of Forbidden Magic. In the early years of the 5th Astral Era, an ambitious Magi named Shatotto wished to harness unlimited power, however her own aether was too limited. So she devised a technique to drain the aether of the land around her instead of her own aether. This technique was coined "Black Magic." As its use spread, so too did the destruction it wrought, eventually draining the world of its aether during the War of the Magi at the end of the 5th Astral Era, ushering in the 6th Umbral Era. Because of this, the technique was forgotten to most in the nearly 1600 years since, and forbidden to all those who did still recall its power.


Conjurer - Refers to persons with the ability to commune and manipulate the aether in Nature. 500 years ago, in the time of Gelmorra, the Hyur and Duskwight in the subterranean city sought to live within the Twelveswood. After a time, the Elementals sent Moogles to teach the Gelmorrans a method for communication between Man and Elemental, and so Conjury was born. There were some gifted with this communion from birth, children able to hear the call of the Elementals, and these young conjurers were called Hearers. Not all conjurers are Hearers, but all Hearers are conjurers. From there, these young conjurers are trained at the Stillglade Fane.

White Mage - Refers to users of the Elemental's magic, Succor. This powerful restorative magic was gifted to mankind during the 5th Astral Era to balance the destructive power of Black Magic. For a while, it worked, the White Mages of Amdapor were able to heal the deep wounds caused by the ever more glorified experiments by Black Mages. Until the War of the Magi broke out near the end of the 5th Astral Era. So much aether was drained from Hydaelyn to bare the strain of the Magi that the land died and the Elementals were forced to summon a great flood which wiped the taint of magic from the world. For 1000 years Succor was lost to the world, until 500 years ago, the Elementals gifted their magic once more to the Padjal.


Arcanist - Refers to practitioners of arcanima. While Melvaan's Gate was only built after the  ascension of Admiral Merlwyb Bloefhiswyn circa 1562 6AE, Arcanists can trace their routes back to the ancient civilization of Nym in the 5th Astral Era. These mages and mathematical geniuses use a mixture of geometry and enchanted inks to manifest incantations of both destructive and restorative processes. They are also capable of drawing their aether to form a Familiar, a property of their magic most likely left over from the ancient Allagan Summoner.

Scholar - Refers to a group of phrontists, chirurgeons, and tacticians of ancient Nym, a civilization which thrived during the end of the 5th Astral Era. Similar to Arcanimia, Scholars used geometric shapes and glyphs and the ink in which they were inscribed to invoke power restorative magicks. It is believed that the Nymians were aided by Faeries, magical beings possibly akin to Familiars. However, in the aftermath of the War of the Magi, the Nymians were afflicted with a terrible plague which deformed their inhabitants and struck from them their ability to invoke their former magicks, including the Fae. After the most recent Calamity, ruins of ancient Nym were uncovered in Vylbrand, making the rediscovery of that ancient magic possible.

Summoner - Refers to users of a form of magic once used by the ancient Allagans in the 3rd Astral Era over 5000 years ago. The Allagans are believed to have possessed great knowledge of magic and technology that has since been lost to the world. One of these forms of magic was known as Summoning, wherein a mage would invoke the essences of Primals they had defeated in combat. One such Allagan hero, named Wiyu, faced off against the Dark Divinity using the power of the Primals. However, the battle took an ill turn, and Wiyu sacrificed herself to seal the Elder Primal Odin from the world for the next 5000 years.

Today, there are very few who are even aware of this practice, let alone capable of wielding its power. However, with the Sons of Saint Coinach delving deeper and deeper into the secrets of the ancient Allagans and the ever growing popularity of Allagan artifacts on the market, knowledge thought lost for over 5000 years has slowly crept back to the surface. As for the summoner in the SMN storyline, he was taught this power by the Ascians, not via a soulstone or having fought a Primal.

Going further into this tangent of Summoners having to face the Primals, it is merely stated in the SMN storyline that your proximity to a Primal Summoning and its subsequent death is what awakens the power within you and allows the Player Character to draw forth that essence into an Egi. It does not specifically say that you, the Player Character, must needs be the blade which slays it. One could merely be a close observer to the fight, like Urianger oversees our duel with Ramuh in the MSQ.


(OMG, can you tell I got tired there towards the end. Guys are killing me.)

/Deep breath.

ECHO!

Let's delve right in. In response to Zyrusticae's link to Anonymoose's summary of the differences between Warriors of Light, Twelvesblades, 1st Wave, and 2nd Wave, I agree with Anonymoose. However, I must also agree that we have no steadfast lore evidence that ALL Warriors of Light have the Echo. While it is possible and perhaps even probable, we cannot say with 100% certainty that they do ALL possess the Echo.

Remember, we actually know very little about the Echo. If it is truly a "gift" from Hydaelyn, why do the Ascians have it? How do the Ascians gift it to the Sahagin? Why do the Ascians know so much more about it than we do, if it is truly Hydaelyn's gift? We do not yet have answers to these questions.

What we do know about the Echo, is that it seems to prevent the wielder from dying and returning to the Aetherial Plane. However, on the flipside of this, we see many Echo users slain during the 2.0 MSQ "All Good Things" soooooo... We know that for some reason it prevents tempering from Primals, as we are already "claimed" supposedly. We know that in some cases, but not all, it allows a passage from the user's mind into the past of another. It also in certain cases permits the comprehension of any speech, no matter how foreign the tongue. However, this ability, according to the 1.0 MSQ, is limited to only the Player Character to the best of Minfillia's knowledge.

Now, a bit of a history lesson. The Scions of the Seventh Dawn is only a 5 year old organization. Prior to the Calamity, the current Scions were part of two entities: The Path of the Twelve and The Circle of Knowing. The Path of the Twelve was an underground organization run by Minfillia whose members were those who possessed the Echo as part of the "1st Wave." 1st Wave referring to people who received the Echo's Blessing between the years 1562 and 1572. (In almost all of the cases of 1st Wave Echo users, lore states that they witnessed a "star shower" which looks oddly similar to the fall of Dalamud.) So in some form or another, they all possessed the Echo.

The Circle of Knowing, on the other hand, was a group of scholars from Sharlayan determined to prevent the coming of the Seventh Umbral Era. The Circle of Knowing was lead by the Archon Louisoux. Louisoux was the only one of the Circle EVER referred to as an Archon. Yda, Papalymo, Thancred, Urianger, and Y'shtola are never ever referred to as fellow Archons. Nor, is it ever suggested that they too, possess the Echo. In fact, in 1.0 MSQ "Beckon of the Elementals," when the Player Character pulls Papalymo and Yda into an Echo, they are at a total loss of what the heck just happened to them or who could wield such power as to revisit the past.

/dying. I hope... (wheeeeze) I hope this... (huff puff) helps! ^^;
Lore! As requested by OP. All of this information is available via your Class/Job Guildmasters in 2.0, particularly Erik in Ul'dah. OR, you can view the 1.0 Class Storylines, as they are much more informative about class history than anything we were given in 2.0. Grumblegrumble.

(11-29-2014, 06:32 AM)Faye Wrote: Well... I'd say "all dragoons are bad" is a generalization that's equally as false as saying "everyone thinks dragoons are bad." A lot of people have some reluctance because, to be honest, in my personal experience I've run into a lot of DRG mary sue's and power players. Dragoons are sort of the ultimate, cliched, cool, super strong badass of the FF franchise, so naturally they're most likely to attract those kind of role-players. That being said, I've also only seen a couple IC WHM's about, only a couple more SCH's, and only a couple more MNK's. Most role-players don't exactly give their character an actual job IC, or at the very least don't blatantly advertise it either IC or even OOC.

Dragoon, however, is one of the jobs that's actually more viable to role-play--provided you aren't trying to make your character the Azure Dragoon. Bear in mind, I'm not too familiar with the DRG lore as I've never played one IC or even OOC, but from what I've been told not only do they endure rigorous training but they also follow strict rules about where they can go and when, when and where they can wear their DRG armor, etc. A lot of DRG RPers completely disregard this, so while you say your character "suffered" to become this, a lot of RPers don't really spin it that way when they ignore all the limitations and rules of being a DRG yet still reap all the benefits.

Second problem with a lot of DRG role-players I've seen firsthand is the idea both IC and OOC that jumping on things is the best way to kill them. I'm not talking giant dragons, I'm talking smaller and speedier targets like other people... There's a reason that IRL few martial arts and combat styles involve jumping out of the air at people... it leaves you vulnerable and there's really no benefit to outweigh that. There was an IC DRG once who joined my FC for all of an hour until he was told IC that jumping was a silly tactic when fighting other people began to yell at us OOC about that remark that had been made in RP, promptly quit the FC and apparently to this day goes around telling everyone not to RP with us lol. If you want to have your character jump around a lot, and even if you want him to be presumed to be good at it and be a competent fighter, that's fine--but you need to be able to handle criticism on the matter, as many people may not find jumping 20 feet in the air to be a useful or believable fighting tactic.

I will say that I have nothing against people who RP dragoons, and that it's dumb to classify an entire group of people based on the actions of a few bad eggs they likely wouldn't even want associated with them. However, for those who are prone to stereotype and judge a group by the worst half of it, there are plenty of questionable dragoons running around for them to base their negative opinions on.

But! Maybe I just haven't noticed, but I haven't seen any rampant hatred of dragoon RPers. Or rather, I haven't seen any more hatred for dragoons than I've seen for all the Nunhs and Sultansworn and Garleans and whatnot. So unless it's all just eluded me, I feel like generalizing the mass public as dragoon haters is no better than generalizing dragoons as special snowflakes.

(11-29-2014, 03:11 PM)Yssen Wrote: Random curiosity. What prevents Miqo from being Dragoons exactly?

(11-29-2014, 03:08 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Still though, zzz at the franchise mythology about dragoons. Pogo sticks!

(11-29-2014, 03:08 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Miqo'te dragoons that sit around in Ul'dah all day...a Miqo'te dragoon is pretty much identical to seeing a white dude as a fully fledged Japanese samurai. Not impossible but weird.

(11-29-2014, 03:50 PM)Crisiet Wrote: Nothing would prevent a miqo'te from learning techniques if they had the right connections. It's getting those connections that might prove difficult though.