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RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Valence - 07-12-2017
Tanks doing baby pulls in expert.
DPS using their single target rotations on trash pulls.
Both combined together is 10 times more infuriating than each of them separate when you are the second or third DPS (aka healer).
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Meena - 07-12-2017
(07-12-2017, 05:35 AM)Yian Kutku Wrote:(07-12-2017, 04:41 AM)Meena Wrote:Quote:"I play a firemage"
I'd like to ask how, but I'm not sure I want to know the answer.
either new, or trolling thaumaturges.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Aaron - 07-12-2017
(07-12-2017, 04:39 AM)Yian Kutku Wrote:Â We do, sadly have CD's. It's just apparently, for some god forsaken reason, the VAST majority of people who play DRK are complete shit with it (even tho SE made it so easy!).(07-11-2017, 02:03 PM)Aaron Wrote: Some people shouldn't play tanks.
I ran three dungeons in a row with DRK as Tank.
In all three cases, their buff bar contained no buff icons apart from what was provided by myself as Healer, Darkside, and very occasionally Grit.
This is despite their mass-pulling.
I'm beginning to wonder if DRKs have any mitigation cooldowns to reduce damage.
Like, I main DRK, yet I internally prepare for the worst if I ever go DPS instead and get a DRK as a tank. $10 says they don't use DS cause "It drains too much MP T_T"
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Gegenji - 07-12-2017
(07-12-2017, 06:22 AM)Valence Wrote: Tanks doing baby pulls in expert.
DPS using their single target rotations on trash pulls.
Both combined together is 10 times more infuriating than each of them separate when you are the second or third DPS (aka healer).
To be fair, "baby pulls" is going to be heavily dependent on what your DPS looks like and how confident you are in your healer to keep you up. If you don't have good AoE damage, big pulls can be time-consuming... and MP-consuming for your healer. Or you could just drop due to either the healer not being able to keep you up or, since we're talking Vent-Tent material, they're too focused on DPS.
Which is, oddly enough, a topic that came up recently in an LS chat for me. Super-DPS-focused healers. The launching point was someone complaining about getting into a PotD with two healers who apparently would rather die doing their mad deepz rather than fling around a single heal. And, on the same day, I had a... mildly troubling healing in my Leveling roulette in Haukke Manor (NM).
To be fair, we got through the whole thing just fine without any deaths. However, there was many a time where I was worried (as PLD tank) about how low my HP was dipping. Meanwhile our WHM is spamming their attack spells as I consistently drop to quarter and lower health on trash pulls - which quickly meant I started pulling smaller groups since I was fairly certain I was getting more "heals" via my base HP regen out of combat than I was getting from our healer. Who seemed deadset that the "rushdown" strategy would work better, but also apparently didn't seem to see the need to top me off after battles either.
... Really, the only times I think I actually saw her healing was during the bosses where she HAD to or I'd die... and one accidental big pull past the first boss when one of our DPS jumped over the railing rather than go around with me and I had to grab and tank both packs. We had a THM and a BLM as our DPS, so it wasn't really a problem... but, again it was more a concern that if I pulled big my super-aggro healer wouldn't heal me.
So... yeah. Long story short, there can be multiple reasons why someone might do "baby pulls." Hopefully, though, if you ask the tank to do big pulls... they will oblige. Though, I personally would be more obliging to the healer saying "pull big" rather than the DPS. And I especially don't like when DPS decide to "help" with said pulls by running ahead and grabbing the next pack "for you" - which is what our SAM decided to do in my Leveling roulette of Shisui of the Violet Tides yesterday.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Valence - 07-13-2017
DPS that are grabbing for the tank are as infuriating as anything. Even when I would like bigger pulls, as a DPS I will never ever start breaking dungeon basic etiquette and just be outright rude to everyone else. I have already left dungeons when someone pulled that trick on me as a tank.
I want to insist that I wrote above "in experts" for a reason. My vent wasn't much addressed to leveling dungeons (below 60 at least). In leveling dungeons you can have jobs that still don't have access to their AoEs, or just tanks and healers that have mediocre leveling gears, which is to be expected and alright. Leveling dungeons aren't about your full max level toolset.
I still hold to my view for experts though. Or lvl50, lvl60 dungeons as well (lvl50-60 roulette). Most of the tanks in HW used to pull at least 2 packs of mobs at once most of the time. Everyone was doing that, healers were fine, tanks were fine with it. I don't know why suddenly they are all doing baby pulls.Â
The point that healers can't keep the pace is moot in my opinion when they just have to pop a regen or cast a cure once or twice during a baby pull. With two pulls at the same time, nobody will make me believe it requires even 50% of healing uptime from the healer, as bad as they can be. Anyone  spamming cure will just overheal that.
The point that some DPS are more suited to AoEs, is, frankly, bullshit in my opinion. Unlike all tanks suddenly doing the smallest pulls possible in SB, DPS actually using their AoEs in experts are few and far between, and it has been that way since the first umbral calamity or something. I play one of the jobs that has seen its AoE absolutely gutted by SB (MCH), and I'm still pulling big numbers over 3 targets. Any DPS class has the AoE toolset to deal with packs, and not doing so is 1) not optimal, and 2) shitting on the other DPS player that is trying to AoE but can't do it half the time because you are mowing down the mobs one by one.
Tanks running out of CDs when the DPS take too much time killing the packs? I guess yeah, but at the same time some of the mobs are probably dead and if not, dying. The tank doesn't have to pop ALL the CDs at the start of a pull anyway. You don't do it for a boss, so why would you on pulls?
Honestly, I have seen a few runs where everyone was AoEing properly and big pulls just melt in a matter of seconds.
Ah, maybe some DPS jobs that run out of TP very fast? Generally not fast enough that the pull isn't dead by then, but sometime they have to use invigorate yeah. Who wouldn't take that as a crossrole anyway? And I'm a MCH. I refuse to believe they have TP issues because I'm spamming Tactician all the time, either for myself, or most generally for others. like DRG, SAM, when they actually try to AoE.
No, there is just that myth in the heads of players that some DPS jobs are shit at AoE, which is bullshit. Some are better than others yes, but all of them are good at it. Yes, even tanks and healers, and even PLD now. And some of the DPS jobs that are the least played with their AoEs are DRG, MNK, SAM and Nin most of the time. How silly is that? Besides SMN, they probably of the best AoE potency, even if on a shorter bursts.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Gegenji - 07-13-2017
(07-13-2017, 06:30 AM)Valence Wrote: No, there is just that myth in the heads of players that some DPS jobs are shit at AoE, which is bullshit. Some are better than others yes, but all of them are good at it. Yes, even tanks and healers, and even PLD now. And some of the DPS jobs that are the least played with their AoEs are DRG, MNK, SAM and Nin most of the time. How silly is that? Besides SMN, they probably of the best AoE potency, even if on a shorter bursts.
Is it a myth? Or is it no longer a truth now, with Stormblood changing things up? And, as such, the fact that DRG and MNK can possibly AoE effectively now hasn't really cottoned on with the general populace? They could certainly be acting on previous understandings on how things worked, and I do recall MNK and DRG not being too great on the sustained AoE during the ARR/HW periods.
And, again, just because DPS has AoE options doesn't mean they'll use them. Just like my DRK who refused to use Unleash that I mentioned earlier, you can just as easily have... say... a SAM and BRD as your two DPS and they're almost exclusively single-targeting. Or they could just be bad - like the SAM I had in my Expert yesterday that I could've sworn was purposely standing on top of me to try and get me killed with AoE effects (though that was more issue with the second and final bosses of Ala Mhigo) and only ever seemed to use the Two-Sen AoE move and not the other four at his disposal.
Or you could have a healer that's more focused on DPSing than healing - referencing my Haukke Manor complaint from earlier. Sure, that happened in Leveling, but it's still a thing that can happen at any level of play. You don't know what you're going to get in a roulette, so expecting people who keep pace with you is a nice idea... but it never hurts to be cautious. And even then, some people will surprise you.
Heck, I had a Omega V4.0 with a DRK offtank on Tuesday who refused to avoid any of the big hits, stood in the middle of the room for Decisive Battle on purpose and hit Living Death, burned the LB3 on a tank LB for no reason, and the entire time was complaining about not getting heals.
The various stories of various PuGs that inspired me to create this Vent Tent to begin with is proof enough that - while hopefully the rarity as opposed to the norm - you're going to run into people in roulettes who are problematic. As a tank, I'd rather err on the side of caution and do smaller pulls until either I can gauge the skill of my team or I get the okay from, like, the healer that I can make bigger pulls. Of course, if it looks like everyone can manage and the tank is STILL doing itty-bitty pulls? Then I'd certainly be annoyed too.
Still, even dismissing the idea of the Potential Bads ™ you could end up with... it's possible that you just have players who aren't comfortable yet making big pulls. Stormblood's been out for all of, what, a month? Maybe they're not geared enough yet (either in actuality or in their mind) to tank/heal/whatever for the larger pulls. Maybe they don't know the dungeons well enough yet to have figured out how many pulls in you can go. I remember one of my first runs of TotF, we had a tank get a little too ambitious after the first boss and pulled the next two packs - the second pack including a bear and a swarm of small enemies, and he died before the healer could get a heal off.
I'm sure as time passes, and people both get more familiar with the dungeons and more gear from them, that people will do bigger pulls. Even now, I usually see the default "first pull" for Ala Mhigo being the first two packs - only newcomers to the instance just pull the first one. And pulling to the barriers in the first legs of TotF seems to be pretty commonplace too.
And, honestly, just speaking from personal preference... I'd kinda prefer baby pulls than over-aggressive tanks (and, as mentioned before, DPS) pulling too much and getting everyone killed. Especially if said individuals throw a fit afterward because their eyes were bigger than their iLevels (I'm so witty
).
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Drej - 07-13-2017
(07-12-2017, 06:22 AM)Valence Wrote: Tanks doing baby pulls in expert.
DPS using their single target rotations on trash pulls.
Both combined together is 10 times more infuriating than each of them separate when you are the second or third DPS (aka healer).
Tanks doing huge pulls in expert.Â
But then forcing DPS to mostly just use their single target rotations on trash pulls because that's all some of us can realistically do when the tank keeps dragging the mobs out of our f*king Doton.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Valence - 07-13-2017
(07-13-2017, 09:10 AM)Gegenji Wrote: Is it a myth? Or is it no longer a truth now, with Stormblood changing things up? And, as such, the fact that DRG and MNK can possibly AoE effectively now hasn't really cottoned on with the general populace? They could certainly be acting on previous understandings on how things worked, and I do recall MNK and DRG not being too great on the sustained AoE during the ARR/HW periods.
DRG and MNK have had respectively the most potent and the most steady, solid AoE in HW. DRG had (and still has) a crazy insane AoE potency at the cost of a TP running dry after short bursts. MNK has always shown a very steady, stamina enhanced AoE with a strong move (Rockbreaker) that could consistently almost outdo a BLM AoE (which was frankly mediocre for a caster AoE), and outdo absolutely any AoE besides SMN when using Perfect Balance with it.
Monk was great on sustained AoE, and average on AoE power. DRG wrecked everything but if the other DPS was sloppy, they would have to stop short of TP pretty fast.
It is a myth and has been a myth for years. All DPS classes have good AoE potency. Some better than other sure, but they are all good at it. Especially Nin, with very few AoE flaws and almost on par with DRG on potency alone, but on a more sustained basis. Nin has always suffered in the mind of people because Death Blossom used to be mediocre before its buff to 110 potency (almost 140 per GCD once Huton-ed, and closer to 160 with poison). I also hear that current Nin in SB is absolutely dreadful for AoEs, more than ever. The Ten-Chi-Jin skill or HellFrog Medium is that insane.
(07-13-2017, 09:10 AM)Gegenji Wrote: And, again, just because DPS has AoE options doesn't mean they'll use them.
That's my main gripe yes. There is no excuse not to use AoE on pulls equaling 3-4 or more mobs for all DPS classes.
(07-13-2017, 09:10 AM)Gegenji Wrote: Or you could have a healer that's more focused on DPSing than healing - referencing my Haukke Manor complaint from earlier. Sure, that happened in Leveling, but it's still a thing that can happen at any level of play. You don't know what you're going to get in a roulette, so expecting people who keep pace with you is a nice idea... but it never hurts to be cautious. And even then, some people will surprise you.
It's pugs. If the healer is too busy DPSing for whatever reason, they will likely let the tank die no matter what or the amount of mobs they have. I actually find that pulling a whole room tend to give those a cold shower and jolt them back on track by focusing more on healing instead of goofing around.
( I have rarely met that kind of healer on experts though, just in leveling... it's beginner mistakes )
(07-13-2017, 09:10 AM)Gegenji Wrote: The various stories of various PuGs that inspired me to create this Vent Tent to begin with is proof enough that - while hopefully the rarity as opposed to the norm - you're going to run into people in roulettes who are problematic. As a tank, I'd rather err on the side of caution and do smaller pulls until either I can gauge the skill of my team or I get the okay from, like, the healer that I can make bigger pulls. Of course, if it looks like everyone can manage and the tank is STILL doing itty-bitty pulls? Then I'd certainly be annoyed too.
The healer should manage as I said, but yes, you are definitely right, you never know what you can stumble upon. I think I have almost never seen a healer failing at 2 trash pulls though. The whole room with 4-6 pulls? Sure. All the time. Those tanks are crazy. You do that with your friends and people that you know can handle it. But 2 pulls? Anybody can do that and I have yet to see a single situation proving otherwise.
And that's all I'm asking really...
(07-13-2017, 09:10 AM)Gegenji Wrote: And, honestly, just speaking from personal preference... I'd kinda prefer baby pulls than over-aggressive tanks (and, as mentioned before, DPS) pulling too much and getting everyone killed. Especially if said individuals throw a fit afterward because their eyes were bigger than their iLevels (I'm so witty
Gear shouldn't be an issue in expert. Min ilvl is perfectly fine for more than baby pulls and can easily sustain a 2 pulls by 2 pulls process.
This is of course just my - unflinching opinion - but I must also admit that I never got bothered that much with it in HW, except when I was playing a specific job, which is SMN, for which the smallest pulls were a living nightmare to handle (killing them way too fast, countdowns and buffs and aetherflow not lining up for the next one, etc).
I'm absolutely mad about it in SB due to the specificity of MCH, where the AoE rotation and the single target rotation don't mesh at all and actually screw up with each other badly. You want heat to be above 50 but below 100 for the single target one because your skills are heat dependant, but they aren't for the AoE rotation. The AoE rotation is basically a SpreadShot spamm follow by flamethrower during overheat. Having to revert to single target after the AoE rotation is a nightmare when Barrel Stab isn't up (stupid 2min CD), unless you want to keep Flamethrower out of the AoE rotation to painfully build heat back up again (and murdering it in the process).
So yes, I'm venting. It's not supposed to be absolutely composed. Rational yes, but blown out of proportions, I can agree to that.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Yian Kutku - 07-14-2017
(07-13-2017, 06:30 AM)Valence Wrote: Yes, even tanks and healers
As a Scholar, I tend to twitch any time people ask me to AoE. I mean, I do put down Shadowflares when it's up. Other than that, well.
(07-13-2017, 06:45 PM)Valence Wrote: I think I have almost never seen a healer failing at 2 trash pulls though.
I once failed at two trash pulls, in Dusk Vigil.
I still contend that it's not my fault, since the Tank (a DRK) was wearing gear ten levels below the dungeon. Not ten ilevels, but ten levels.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Valence - 07-15-2017
Again, mostly referring to expert runs.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Yian Kutku - 07-17-2017
To the WHM healing me in Brayflox NM:
I understand that due to some concerns about low-level DF groups, you might want to concentrate on healing me as the Tank rather than throwing out some (ie any) DPS.
I also understand, due to certain clues, that you are at or above level 50, and probably not Jump Potioned, so you should have some experience in this game.
But when you are literally doing the Manderville while I'm tanking Aiatar, I can only conclude that you are taking the piss.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Eliana M'Terra - 07-17-2017
(07-17-2017, 04:53 AM)Yian Kutku Wrote: To the WHM healing me in Brayflox NM:
I understand that due to some concerns about low-level DF groups, you might want to concentrate on healing me as the Tank rather than throwing out some (ie any) DPS.
I also understand, due to certain clues, that you are at or above level 50, and probably not Jump Potioned, so you should have some experience in this game.
But when you are literally doing the Manderville while I'm tanking Aiatar, I can only conclude that you are taking the piss.
can I ask if you told that healer to his or her face what you just wrote in here ?
My own little story : Bardam, me SCH, DRK, NIN & BRD
Apart from the DRK that, as a tank, takes damage, I had to content with a BRD in love with damage intake. I have never ran into a BRD that took so many damages, I mean from full down to 40% of his health in one shot, which, me being a SCH, made it hard on my mana management at that level I do not have either the full fairy help at that (I was on my lvl 67 class)
Anyway, after having to use my veil of saint new version, not once but twice, I finally asked the BRD why he was taking so much damages, him being a range it made no sense to me. His answer ? that he was not a range but a melee -range and he had to do so because of his Knock back.
Sure, by all means stay close but when a BRD takes more damage than a NIN and a DRK I kind of Wonder, to his benefit, he stood back and my life as a healer was way better, we finished without troubles and me without heartache as to whether my mana would be enough
Second story : lvl 70 dungeon last boss of Fist.
I had to use my Fairy theater on the tank, well guess what he was runing away from the teather, breaking it each time, first time I thought it was a mistake, but no, he was doing it on purpose, and his damage intake was astronomical. Finally told him that when he is teathered it is a good thing as the fairy heals him exclusively at least for a while. His answer : did not know the Fairy was main heal. I just shook my head and moved on. I mean, he was runing like opposite of my poor fairy.
True stories, makes life interesting but I can say this though. SCH nerf sucks, I am not even sure why they did that but heals were reduced, CDs increased and we got nothing to compensate that.
Eliana
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Gegenji - 07-17-2017
(07-17-2017, 08:38 AM)Eliana MTerra Wrote:(07-17-2017, 04:53 AM)Yian Kutku Wrote: To the WHM healing me in Brayflox NM:
I understand that due to some concerns about low-level DF groups, you might want to concentrate on healing me as the Tank rather than throwing out some (ie any) DPS.
I also understand, due to certain clues, that you are at or above level 50, and probably not Jump Potioned, so you should have some experience in this game.
But when you are literally doing the Manderville while I'm tanking Aiatar, I can only conclude that you are taking the piss.
can I ask if you told that healer to his or her face what you just wrote in here ?
On the last boss? I suppose after that would be the best time for it if they didn't immediately gun it to the exit. Or you didn't yourself just to be away from the guy and move on with life. I could see either happening, really.
... I have seen this done myself, by the by. It's certainly frustrating that a healer would rather dance than, you know, put in a little more effort.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Eliana M'Terra - 07-17-2017
(07-17-2017, 08:49 AM)Gegenji Wrote:(07-17-2017, 08:38 AM)Eliana MTerra Wrote:(07-17-2017, 04:53 AM)Yian Kutku Wrote: To the WHM healing me in Brayflox NM:
I understand that due to some concerns about low-level DF groups, you might want to concentrate on healing me as the Tank rather than throwing out some (ie any) DPS.
I also understand, due to certain clues, that you are at or above level 50, and probably not Jump Potioned, so you should have some experience in this game.
But when you are literally doing the Manderville while I'm tanking Aiatar, I can only conclude that you are taking the piss.
can I ask if you told that healer to his or her face what you just wrote in here ?
On the last boss? I suppose after that would be the best time for it if they didn't immediately gun it to the exit. Or you didn't yourself just to be away from the guy and move on with life. I could see either happening, really.
... I have seen this done myself, by the by. It's certainly frustrating that a healer would rather dance than, you know, put in a little more effort.
Nope, up to the boss it was not that obvious, that he was runing away from the Fairy, but on the last boss ? oh my...I mean that was ...ugh...
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Gegenji - 07-17-2017
That tends to be how it goes, unfortunately. Despite how bad some PuG tales are, you usually zone in expecting things to go all right. So you might not notice some things right away unless it's noticeably impacting your experience. Heck, sometimes I've forgotten to put on Shield Oath due to the level adjustment but I'm spamming my enmity moves enough that I'm maintaining aggro so I don't notice it until someone tells me a few pulls in.
That's just a low key example of it, but stuff like healers ONLY healing or DPS being problematic (such as continuing to single-DPS in big groups or, almost at the opposite end, spamming AoE stuff with single and two-mob pulls) aren't always noticeable right away. Or DPS/Healers in bad or broken gear - it's far more noticeable on tanks since they'll be horrendously squishy (though that could also be assumed to them just not using their cooldowns). I've had experiences with all of them in some shape or form, and I usually don't really notice it right away. Too wrapped up in my own role a lot of the time.
