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Dante Abigor · **10-31-2015, 12:18 PM**

So Ive been thinking a lot about Tiamat lately and why she is sealed in Azys La by choice. The more I think about it, the more it seems an oddly specific and weird punishment to choose for herself.

So we have established a few things about dragons to date in FFXIV. First, death is kinda iffy for the older/stronger dragons, as proven by both Nidhogg and Midgard, both of whom have decided that death is little more than an unpleasant nap as of yet.

We have also established that eyes are the source of power for dragons, and without them they can maybe(?) be killed (again, Nidhogg is an example of having no eyes and still being all cool with it, as is Midgard.)

So my question is....how exactly was Bahamut permanently killed? He wasnt just some youngling dragon, he was one of the first brood of Midgard like Tiamat, so it seems odd that one that would later be worshiped by other dragons could be killed--at least permanently enough that Tiamat would deal with the Ascians who likely are the only ones capable of permanently killing him in the first place to "summon" him back to life.

I cant understand how Bahamut could simply DIE when Nidhogg, someone who is further down the line can survive losing both of his eyes, AND even being obliterated only to possess someone later and rebirth himself.

And I dont really wanna get started on how Midgard was basically in a nuclear explosion which would typically include one's eyes (his corpse looked mummified to me) and just was like "nah its cool I'll just become your mount now."

So with all of that it just gets me wondering WHY Tiamat chose imprisonment via the Allagans when she apparently could have chosen death or...something else.

(EDIT: Also why cant Midgard just breath Bahamut back to life like he did those dragons he makes you fight when you meet him?)

Theories or answers? Im seriously stumped here and its starting to drive me nuts.

Shoshopu · **10-31-2015, 01:14 PM**

I don't remember the cutscenes specifying how Bahamut was killed, but apparently he was defending Meracydia not just from the Allagan Empire, but from Xande with his crazy Cloud of Darkness bullshit. Xande and the Allagans apparently knew how to permakill him but not how to trap his primal form in Dalamud and harvest him for solar energy, the Ascians had to teach them that. But as for Tiamat's imprisonment, it sounds to me like she just wanted the worst punishment for herself that she could think of because it's the only thing that comes close to atoning for what she did, in her mind.

Maybe Midgard wasn't around to revive Bahamut because he wasn't around before the corpse was destroyed? Maybe whatever void-y darkness BS killed him corrupted the body? Or maybe he's only able to resurrect lesser dragons. When you kill the dragons he resurrects in the boss fight it takes substantial chunks of his HP, and although he's in a weakened spirit form there probably, in life it probably would have taken just as much or more out of him...

Sounsyy · **10-31-2015, 01:30 PM**

I'm at work, so can't write super detailed response. But I think the fallacy of your comparison is the assumption that Nidhogg and Midgardsormr actually died. They didn't. Thordan's knights even admit that they merely drove off Nidhogg after prizing both his eyes. They knew without them he was powerless and would die of his wounds. Midgardsormr exploded but his eyes remained and his broken body went into slumber to recover.

We know of two of the Seven Celestial Wyrms who actually died. Ratatoskr and Bahamut. Ratatoskr's body was ripped asunder and her eyes devoured. You can find the remains of her lifeblood at Tharl Oom Khash. We don't know how Bahamut was slain by the Allagans, but we know the Ascians helped them. I can only assume it was in such a way that destroyed both his eyes.

I think for one of the Seven to truly die, their eyes must be destroyed like Ratatoskr's. Haldrath kept Nidhogg's eyes safe. Therefor he can never truly die.

(I will come back later and link sources and such, but hope this helps! ^^ )

Momo · **10-31-2015, 09:30 PM**

Something to consider along with Sounsyy's statement, Midgardsormr was supposedly the first, and Father of all dragons to follow. Â He was not one of the 7 legendary dragons, but in fact, he is before them, first charged with the duty to protect the waters and magic of Silvertear Falls (supposed to be the well from which all magic was created and flows), and bringing the seven eggs which would later hatch into the Seven Celestial Wyrms. Â As such, he may be unlike his children, in that perhaps he has more power and control over his form and spirit. Â Seemingly able to change shape and reform himself at will, we see a vision of him which has sentience and pierces our being to break the protection of light which then proceeds to form a minion which he speaks to us through, and then onto a mount which we can ride, and is recognized as the dragon himself.

These abilities, unlike the others, may either point to his power and control as I stated, or may simply be a recognition of any dragon which is near his magnitude, and the powers they posses, and it is only that we see him more often because of his vested interest in the WoL. Â Whatever the case, I think it is apparent that the Dragon race as a whole, is entirely unlike other races, each of the Legendary Dragons and their Father, possessing vast amounts of individual power and innumerable long years of life. Â Through their eyes, able to reform themselves over and over until the absolute destruction of both comes, and not spirit remains.

Something I would like to address for the original poster, is a theory that Midgard is omniscient in certain ways, and can see the fate of some of his children. Â This fact, and the fact that he even comes to the WoL, chosen one of Hydaelyn, and teaches us a lesson, could be something which speaks to his personality and his relationship with the world. Â He may not breath life back into Bahamut, whether he can or not, simply because there was a lesson to be learned there, which two of his children had to take part in, and later affect the WoL's journey, possibly a step towards ending the cycle of Eras. Â That is, as you say, only a crackpot theory, but one I feel justified in making!

This is fun, hope it keeps going!

Dante Abigor · **10-31-2015, 09:54 PM**

(10-31-2015, 01:30 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: I'm at work, so can't write super detailed response. But I think the fallacy of your comparison is the assumption that Nidhogg and Midgardsormr actually died. They didn't. Thordan's knights even admit that they merely drove off Nidhogg after prizing both his eyes. They knew without them he was powerless and would die of his wounds. Midgardsormr exploded but his eyes remained and his broken body went into slumber to recover.

We know of two of the Seven Celestial Wyrms who actually died. Ratatoskr and Bahamut. Ratatoskr's body was ripped asunder and her eyes devoured. You can find the remains of her lifeblood at Tharl Oom Kesh. We don't know how Bahamut was slain by the Allagans, but we know the Ascians helped them. I can only assume it was in such a way that destroyed both his eyes.

I think for one of the Seven to truly die, their eyes must be destroyed like Ratatoskr's. Thordan kept Nidhogg's eyes safe. Therefor he can never truly die.

(I will come back later and link sources and such, but hope this helps! ^^ )

I DID assume that Midgard died, but I didnt meant Nidhogg died when he fought the knights, I meant that he died after fighting the WoL which considering that his eyes werent completely gone certainly explains that bit.

But that still leaves Bahamut and Tiamat. Even if Bahamut WAS killed somehow defending anything, that still leaves out why the six other celestial dragons didnt help him in some way (Midgardsormr was guarding the Lake so he is kinda excused). It also doesnt answer why Tiamat is in Azys La out of all the places she could "choose" to exile herself. Midgard points out that she chooses to stay there, Im just trying to figure out the "why" behind it. Out of all the horrible punishments I personally can imagine with my incomplete knowledge of just Eorzea letting myself be trapped in a floating super lab thing that the people who killed my brother lover created just doesnt really seem too high on the list.

Not to mention the possibilities of just when she was actually trapped. If she was trapped (most likely) before the allagans went poof then they likely did tests on her that wouldnt be too nice for other dragons, so why did they let her keep both of her eyes?

If it was after they went poof, how did she get in the barrier and activate the restraints? I understand you can make dumb decisions when you are sad, but her decision is so odd and specific I cant even understand it.

Also thanks for the replies everyone loving em so far.

Mae · **10-31-2015, 11:24 PM**

My understanding is that events went, roughly, in the following order:

-- Ascians give the Allags the means of capturing and killing Bahamut.
-- Allags kill Bahamut.
-- Ascians then approach Tiamat and instructed her in how to 'resurrect' Bahamut.
-- Tiamat and the dragons of Meracydia 'ressurect' Bahamut... in the form of a Primal.
-- Tiamat realizes that Primal-Bahamut is a Bad Idea... as is summoning -any- Primal.
-- Ascians give the Allags the means of imprisoning Primal-Bahamut for their use. The Allags also imprison Tiamat.
-- Allags eventually die out. Primal-Bahamut is left in Dalamud, Tiamat is still imprisoned.
-- 10,000 years or so pass.
-- Calamity happens.
-- Coil stuff happens.
-- MSQ in Azys Lla happens. Tiamat is still imprisoned. She is offered freedom, but declines it as punishment for being the first to summon Primal-Bahamut.

So, my assumption is that whatever method the Ascians gave to the Allags to kill Dragon-Bahamut, it was something that he could NOT regenerate from (like Middy sort of does) or potentially bide time until he can body snatch (like Niddy does with Estinein). Which probably means that, at the very least, Dragon-Bahamut's eyes were utterly destroyed. Dragon-Bahamut dies, his essence is released back into the aether/lifestream, which paved the way for Primal-Bahamut to be summoned for the first time.

The fact that Tiamat still has her eyes, hints to me that whatever method the Ascians gave the Allags to capture a dragon of Tiamat's caliber is strong enough to so without weakening her (meaning, taking her eyes) first. Which would likely give the Allags ample opportunities to test on Tiamat in horrible ways -- she's got her eyes, the Allags don't have to worry about an experiment killing her. 10,000 years later, she declines the offer of freedom because being bound like that is the worst punishment that can be inflicted on her; even death would be a release.Â

As for why the other dragons didn't hep Dragon-Bahamut... I think that there's the possibility that whatever information and methods the Ascians were sharing with the Allags, was stuff that all dragons were vulnerable to. Maybe after Dragon-Bahamut fell, the rest of the big dragons (minus Tiamat) realized that they couldn't fight. Or maybe Dragon-Bahamut was killed so quickly, thoroughly, and suddenly, the other dragons couldn't react in time to help.

... That's my thoughts, at least.

[[QUICK EDIT: While I have done some Coil, it was far from an enjoyable activity for me and I didn't really retain much from what I did in there. So I'm likely missing some information that I'd have gotten from Coil.]]

V'aleera · **11-01-2015, 12:39 AM**

(10-31-2015, 09:30 PM)Momo Wrote: Something I would like to address for the original poster, is a theory that Midgard is omniscient in certain ways, and can see the fate of some of his children.

While Midgardsormr definitely has the ability to procure knowledge of things he has not physically observed (ex. Ascian involvement in Ishgard and Thordan's machinations), I don't think he's omniscient. When we first meet Midgardsormr he is firmly on the side of Nidhogg and the raging horde of dragons upset over the one thousand year betrayal. But at the end of the 3.0 MSQ after we watch Nidhogg return, he appears to despair at the depths of madness to which Nidhogg has sunk (which possibly indicates that he did not previously have a full understanding of Nidhogg's state of mind).

To address why Bahamut and Tiamat likely went without help from the other dragons (assuming that is the case at all), there is the matter of them both living in Meracydia at the time: an entirely separate and distant continent from Aldenard where Hraesvelgr, Nidhogg, and Ratatoskr were. That leaves two dragons unnamed and unaccounted, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out they were off somewhere else like Othard or Ilsabard.

Sounsyy · **11-01-2015, 02:26 AM**

(10-31-2015, 01:30 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: (I will come back later and link sources and such, but hope this helps! ^^ )

Follow up lore post:

THIS POST HAS SPOILERS THROUGHOUT!
You've been warned!

-Seven Celestial Wyrms Bleed Crystal
-Dengeki Article on Dragon Lore
-Dragonspeak and Dragon Lore Thread

____________________________
Bahamut

Louisoix Wrote:Twas in the twilight of the Third Astral Era... The southern land of Meracydia suffered invasion at the hands of the Allagan Empire. With no atrocity too depraved for their purpose, the forces of Allag were unstoppable in their advance. Desperate for salvation, the dragons prayed to one of the first brood - to their ancestor Bahamut. Infused by the power of their fervent supplications, Bahamut arose from the abyss of death and took wing as the Meracydians' newborn god.

Hraesvelgr Wrote:In an age long past, mine own kin were guilty of like folly. Beguiled by the dark ones' lies, they attempted to resurrect a king amongst wyrms - yet the divinity they called forth merely borrowed the semblence of my fallen brood-brother. Such gods are not summoned, but created. Phantoms spun from the threads of misplaced faith.

Tiamat Wrote:Hearken to my tale, child of man. I am Tiamat, of Midgardsormr's first brood. In a time before time, my father did come to this star, bearing seven eggs. From these eggs did my brood hatch. And once they were full-grown, they took wing and spread across all the lands of Hydaelyn. Together with my brood-brother Bahamut, I journeyed south to Meracydia. And together, we brought forth innumerable children into the world. We abided in peace, and all was well... until the men of Allag came, some five thousand years since. They slaughtered my children in droves, and took from me my beloved Bahamut.

Twas then, when I had fallen into the depths of despair, that black-robed men came unto me. The Ascians. They offered to resurrect Bahamut through their dark arts, and I, in my grief, accepted - a decision which I shall regret unto my dying breath. For what they brought back was a mockery of my beloved. Worse, the Ascians gifted his murderers the means to entrap him. Know this, child of man: the beings thy call gods are but specters of thy mind's creation, given form at great cost to Hydaelyn. Many such beings yet slumber across the land, brought to heel by the selfsame empire that bound me. They must not be released into the world.

____________________________
Ratatoskr

Hraesvelgr Wrote:Two centuries of harmony were to follow, during which time the Elezen learned much about us, not least that the eyes of a great wyrm are the wellspring of his strength. Twas out of selfish desire to possess this strength that King Thordan then conspired to undo all that our peoples had achieved together. With the aid of his leal knights, that most noble of Elezen lured my brood-sister Ratatoskr into an ambush, and took from her that which he craved.

Fain would I strike the image from my mind, yet still the scene doth linger - of my brood-sister's tattered corpse, defiled by her Elezen allies. They had torn out her eyes, and feasted upon them in a manner of wild beasts. Yet that was not all, for from their bloody banquet, the fiends had gained strength beyond that of mortal men... Even now, I labor to comprehend the enormity of their betrayal.

Nidhogg was the first to learn of the atrocity, and he took to the skies, hungry for vengeance. But though he slew Thordan and some few of his knights, their fellow butchers knew only too well where to aim their spears, and with now-practiced savagery, they set about my brood-brother, sending him flailing from the field...

Nidhogg Wrote:We are undone by covetous mortals. They did take Ratatoskr's eyes... and glut their appetites upon her essence...

Haldrath Wrote:Aye... the wyrm lies broken and my father is avenged. With the wellspring of his vitality thus denied him, Nidhogg shall not linger long in this world. But behold the terrible price we have paid.

____________________________
Tiamat

Tiamat Wrote:Millennia have passed since I was brought low by the men of Allag. To think that war rageth still between our kinds...

Midgardsormr Wrote:It hath been five thousand years, my child. Wilt thou not forgive thyself?

Tiamat Wrote:The release of death is denied me here, yet I desire not freedom. Nay, Father. I shall live with my regret until the world itself hath ceased to be. Such is my just punishment for consorting with Darkness - for calling forth a loathsome and lamentable creature which blackeneth my beloved's memory.

Basically, Tiamat gave up the will to live and likely allowed herself to be brought low and captured by the invading Allagan forces under the resurrected Xande's command. I don't think she chose to be mounted like a trophy in Azys Lla, that's just where the Allagans took her after they bound her using sophisticated Neurolinks. They captured and tortured her and showed her off to the world to show everyone the power of Allag.

In the third post I linked at the top, Fernehalwes gives us an interesting blurb about "Esh Thom," an area in Delta Quadrant overlooking the captive Tiamat. Esh Thom, Fernehalwes explains, is a name made up by the Allagans when they believed they had mastered Dragonspeak - a language before thought to be unlearnable in a life time. Their intended translation was "the lowest of spirits" - likely referring to the beaten Tiamat. The Allagans didn't want to kill Tiamat. They had already won. They were rubbing it in her face.

Here's the text:

Fernehalwes Wrote:There also happens to be one place on the Azys Lla map that features a name in the dragon language. One may ask how this is possible, as it goes completely against the naming conventions used for other locations in the area. Well, the story behind this is that the name is, in fact, an Allagan creation, not something that the dragons themselves coined. At the height of their civilization, the Allagans felt that they had achieved intellectual supremacy over all other beings on Hydaelyn, the mighty dragons included. Even the dragon language, once believed impossible to crack, was fully deciphered by Allagan linguistsâ”€or so they claimed. Using the â€˜impossibleâ€™ language became a fad, and dragonspeak was, for a time, incorporated everywhere from restaurant names to cereal brands. The claw-like formation in the Delta Quadrantâ€”Esh Thomâ€”is an attempt by an Allagan to make a play on the dragonspeak word for god â€œes{h}e{h}d,â€ which is, in fact, a compound meaning â€œhighest spirit.â€ The Allagan who coined the term took the e{h}d portion (highest) and replaced it with â€œt{h}omâ€ (bottom-most), possibly to express the late Allagan civilizationâ€™s departure from matters theological and their disdain for those who still adhered to their belief in an almighty being watching over them. It turns out that the joke was on the Allagans, as not only did a planet-wide calamity put an end to their reign over Hydaelyn, but the name Esh Thom does not translate into â€œthe lowest of spirits,â€ but more closely to â€œan underdeveloped spirit,â€ a trait which can possibly be attributed to the fall of their people.

____________________________
Midgardsormr

Midgardsormr Wrote:Who treadeth now upon my bones and waketh me from slumber sweet?

Yep, not dead, only sleeping! Also, he still very much has his eyes in this cutscene!
Now, going back to that top link I posted which explains how the massive explosions of crystallized aether we see in areas such as Tharl Oom Khash (Ratatoskr's grave), the Aery (where Nidhogg rested when wounded during the Dragonsong War), Antithesis (where Tiamat was tortured by Allagans), and finally Mor Dhona (where Midgardsormr was wounded in the Battle of Silvertear Skies) - we can theorize that the massive explosion we witnessed at the start of 1.0 was actually more Midgardsormr's aether leaving him, not only the result of a random cereluem explosion. Hence why the Mor Dhona region went from being a lush forest to a purple crystallized wasteland.

Sightseeing Vista #017 Wrote:Tharl Oom Khash
An ancient structure half consumed by crystal, its name means "crystal from remorse" in the tongue of dragons. From the sheer mass of crystallization, it has been posited that an entity possessed of aetheric power to rival the seven great wyrms laid down its life here...

Sightseeing Vista #079 Wrote:Rathefrost
The fall of the Agrius into Silvertear Falls not only drained the magnificent multi-tiered lake, but instantly crystallized the majority of the region's flora - a result of mass quantities of ceruleum fuel reacting with aether released upon Midgardsormr's death. What remains is a brilliant, yet dead landscape akin to a twisted garden pocked with blooming geodes.

Hope this helps! ^^ Lemme know if you have more questions about this!

EDIT:

(10-31-2015, 11:24 PM)Mae Wrote: My understanding is that events went, roughly, in the following order:

-- Ascians give the Allags the means of capturing and killing Bahamut.
-- Allags kill Bahamut.
-- Ascians then approach Tiamat and instructed her in how to 'resurrect' Bahamut.
-- Tiamat and the dragons of Meracydia 'ressurect' Bahamut... in the form of a Primal.
-- Tiamat realizes that Primal-Bahamut is a Bad Idea... as is summoning -any- Primal.
-- Ascians give the Allags the means of imprisoning Primal-Bahamut for their use. The Allags also imprison Tiamat.
-- Allags eventually die out. Primal-Bahamut is left in Dalamud, Tiamat is still imprisoned.
-- 10,000 years or so pass.
-- Calamity happens.
-- Coil stuff happens.
-- MSQ in Azys Lla happens. Tiamat is still imprisoned. She is offered freedom, but declines it as punishment for being the first to summon Primal-Bahamut.

Kinda, there's a few tweaks that need to be made though:
-- Meracydia repels Allag for years under the leadership of Bahamut.
-- Allagans kill Bahamut during the 1st Reign of Xande or sometime during the 1,000 years between Xande's 1st and 2nd Reign.
-- Ascians teach Allagans the art of Summoning.
-- The Allagans reach mastery of magic and technology. Summoners lead Allag's armies against their enemies.
-- Allagans develop clones and mannequin technology. Allag's armies are replaced with machines.
-- Allag begins to fall into decline. The provinces of Allag begin to rebel against the Empire.
-- Xande is resurrected and begins the 2nd Reign of Xande, returning Allag to its glorious zenith. The war with Meracydia is reignited.
-- Xande consorts with Darkness and Allagan magi begin experimenting with voidsent.
-- With an army of machines, summoners, and voidsent demons at his command Xande attacks Meracydia with everything. The Ascians convince Tiamat to summon Meracydia's champion Bahamut as a primal to defend her brood. The Allagans capture Bahamut and imprison him within Dalamud - a satellite used to collect energy/aether from the sun, Azeyma.
-- The Allagans have now achieved infinite energy with Bahamut powering Dalamud and Dalamud transferring the energy of the sun into the Syrcus Tower. The Syrcus Tower then spread that energy across the entire world.
-- Having become completely consumed by the horror of his own death, Xande consorts with the Cloud of Darkness and seeks to cast all of Hydaelyn into the Void. However, the energy needed to open a voidgate of such magnitude is too substantial and a burst of energy from Dalamud causes the Syrcus Tower to shatter Hydaelyn, causing a great earthquake which swallows the Allagan Empire.
-- 5,000 years pass. Allag is all but forgotten. Dalamud passes into religious mythology as Menphina's Hound.
-- Through the research and discovery of ancient Allagan tomestones and Allagan relics, Garlemald discovers the true nature of Dalamud. They seek to control it. The Bozja Citadel is razed and the Garlond Ironworks defects to Eorzea.
-- Nael van Darnus, a descendant of Allag, becomes "tempered" by Primal Bahamut. Nael van Darnus alters Dalamud's orbit and the ancient satellite begins curbing the flow of the Lifestream away from Midgardsormr's Seal. Hydaelyn begins to lose all of her lifeforce to Dalamud.
-- The Calamity. Bahamut breaks free of Dalamud and uses Hydaelyn's lifeforce to exact his revenge upon mankind. Hydaelyn has too little aether for the Twelve to be summoned to the realm, so instead Louisoix prays to the Twelve to make him the primal Phoenix to combat Bahamut.
-- Bahamut clings to life, once more absorbing Hydaelyn's fleeting aether to rebuild his massive form.
-- Bahamut is slain and at long last Tiamat can have some small measure of peace. Even if she intends to punish herself for all eternity.

Dante Abigor · **11-01-2015, 03:21 PM**

(11-01-2015, 02:26 AM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(10-31-2015, 01:30 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: (I will come back later and link sources and such, but hope this helps! ^^ )
-le snip-

Well that answered a lot of questions I had about Midgard, and by extension "dragon death" in FFXIV, but all of that also raised a few more questions.

From everything you posted it sounds like for now, whats known about the whole situation with Bahamut is as clear as its going to get until possibly a later date when they decide to grace us with a complete and clear story about what went down. My attention now is more focused less on Bahamut and Tiamat and more on Midgardsormr.

From your many (wow) sources and quotes, we can get an idea of how powerful he either is or was at some point, seeing as nuking him not only made him take a nap, but turned a wonderfully lush land into a zombie hellscape out of a Steven King book, but now it raises questions on exactly WHY he chose that moment to wake up.

The WoL may have been the one to awaken him, but the WoL certainly wasnt his first visitor, seeing as how you have to fight platoons of Garleans to get to him in the first place, and until he hitches a ride inside of you he was all for the whole "kill all (humanz)" ideal, so why did it take him fifteen years (Give or take) to wake up and start doing things again?

And on that subject why does what is essentially a massive space monster *cough* Jenova *cough* have a working relationship with the will of a planet to the point that he can disable said will's blessing? I realize at this point Im treading into the realm of "there just isnt an answer yet", but its getting weirder the more I find out.

Ignoring his eggs that he apparently had a reason to bring to Hydaelyn from somewhere for some reason that he is obviously more powerful than, why is a being this powerful only observing, or better yet why isnt he a target for the Ascians?

Another spitball thought that caught my attention in your quotes is that the Allagans were conquering everything during their reign. Why wasnt Silvertear Lake a target? I doubt they repelled the massive superdragon that was alive and well enough when the Garleans rolled around, so did they just kinda avoid the overlord but actively murder most of his descendants at the time?

I feel like there is certainly a very specific line here somewhere that Im missing but it just gets crazier the deeper I go.

Finally Id like to point out that Dragons in particular are really iffy with death. In one of your quotes from Midgard himself he states that he was "slumbering", but his ghost thing attacks you, so he was clearly out of body. Then another quote of yours mentioning the crystals being his aether mention that he is dead, so I think its fair to assume that what is death for the races of man in FFXIV dont apply to at least Midgardsormr. Its also fair to assume that his first body is "dead" since he went through the trouble of making a new one in the first place, but maybe he can have multiple bodies or whatever. I actually have a theory that he cant be absorbed into the lifestream seeing as he was apparently there "before time was time" on Eorzea, but thats another crackpot theory on its own and this post is long enough.

Thanks for replying everyone again btw.

EDIT: What is Midgardsormr's seal? I know he guards the lake but I dont remember anything about him managing a seal.

Sounsyy · **11-01-2015, 07:39 PM**

(11-01-2015, 03:21 PM)Dante Abigor Wrote: The WoL may have been the one to awaken him, but the WoL certainly wasnt his first visitor, seeing as how you have to fight platoons of Garleans to get to him in the first place, and until he hitches a ride inside of you he was all for the whole "kill all (humanz)" ideal, so why did it take him fifteen years (Give or take) to wake up and start doing things again?

As you said, we're getting into the territory of "we don't truthfully know yet" but my best theory is that Midgardsormr chose that moment to awake because he sensed Hydaelyn's presence within the Warrior of Light. Midgardsormr stripped the WoL of Her blessing because he didn't believe him/her worthy of bearing it. Remember, dragons really do not get on well with mankind. If there is any truth behind the Twelve's mythology, the Twelve birthed the dragons into existence first, but favored the races of man when they came to Eorzea millennia later. These blessed mortals then used those same blessings to slaughter the dragons throughout history. There's bound to be distrust and resentment, especially considering the fates of Bahamut and Ratatoskr.

Midgardsormr Wrote:I did but strip thee of thy mistress's feeble blessing. Thou didst profit much by Her grace, but no more. The covenant binds me to thee. I shall watch... listen... and wait. Fight and struggle, if it be thy will. Man hath ever coveted that which lieth beyond his grasp. I drink of Her body, and thence doth mine own find new life. When it hath grown whole, the loyal and penitent shall rejoice.

Midgardsormr Wrote:Thou hast broken down the wall I built around thee, and partaken of thy mistress's blessing once more. Strong art thou, mortal - stronger than any other of thy kind. Having looked upon thy deeds, I am convinced. Thou art worthy to bear Her Light. The covenant bound me to thee, but 'twould seem our fates were mingled from the first. Though I will not fight thy battles, I will yet lend thee my wings.

_____________________

(11-01-2015, 03:21 PM)Dante Abigor Wrote: And on that subject why does what is essentially a massive space monster *cough* Jenova *cough* have a working relationship with the will of a planet to the point that he can disable said will's blessing? I realize at this point Im treading into the realm of "there just isnt an answer yet", but its getting weirder the more I find out.

Another one of those we-don't-knows, but a lot of what we know is up in the air at this point over whether or not Midgardsormr is a reliable narrator or not. Midgardsormr believes he came to this planet tens of thousands of years ago and was the first Life upon the planet, opening a covenant with Hydaelyn - the spirit of the world - to create life on the planet. Eorzean creation myths are similar, but attribute Midgardsormr's birth to the Twelve. In both versions of the same story, Midgardsormr is the first living, sentient being on Hydaelyn.

Erik Wrote:Oh, there are any number of legends and myths surrounding the place. I think the oldest and most widely known would have to be that of the dragon of the Falls. I do not claim to be a folklorist, but I can certainly provide the general tale.

There was the birth of Althyk, god of time among the Twelve, and in turn, His younger sister Nymeia, goddess of fate. And then there was water, and through it Silvertear Falls came to be at the center of all that was. Here was the source not only of water, but the fount of all magic as well. Now, when water came into being, so too did the great dragon Midgardsormr. Brother Time and Sister Fate, fearing the Falls might fall into the hands of evil, ordered Midgardsormr their protector and warden. Much later, with the arrival of man, would Midgardsormr be worshiped as the guardian deity of Silvertear Falls.

The Lominsan creation myth involving Perykos and Thalaos also comes into play in this myth as well, so I'll try to summarize. Essentially, the world was a barren wasteland during the time of the Twelve and was unfit for life. When Hydaelyn gave birth to light and drove back the darkness, only divine beings of Her light could bask in Her glory. So it was that Llymlaen gave birth to two serpents, Perykos and Thalaos, who spewed forth the great fount of life from their maws and filled the world with water. From the water, Althyk and Nymeia birthed Midgardsormr to protect the fountain of Life, Water, and Magic on Hydaelyn. But soon Llymlaen realized that the serpents she had created would never stop spewing forth the waters of Life. So she bound them to a rock and sealed them from the world so the seas would not swallow all.

This goes into your question about Midgardsormr's Seal -

(11-01-2015, 03:21 PM)Dante Abigor Wrote: EDIT: What is Midgardsormr's seal? I know he guards the lake but I dont remember anything about him managing a seal.

Silvertear Falls are believed to be the fount of all life, water, and magic on Hydaelyn. It was said that a great dragon, Midgardsormr was tasked with keeping watch over the Lake to keep all evil from controlling the lake's powers. When the waters had stopped flowing, Althyk and Nymeia placed a seal over the lake, binding Midgardsormr to slumber beneath it. This seal is thought to be the gateway between the Physical Realm and the Aetherial Realm.

For those unfamiliar with the lore behind aether and the Lifestream, Eorzeans believe that beneath the earth there courses great rivers of aether, Hydaelyn's Lifeblood, known collectively as the Lifestream. When a creature dies, the aether that gives life to its body is torn from its corporeal form and saturates the ground where it died. Over time, that aether soaks through the earth and returns to the Lifestream where it flows to Silvertear Lake. All paths of the Lifestream lead to Silvertear Lake. Once the aether reaches the great Seal over the lake, the aether passes from this realm to the Aetherial Realm and then back again, recycled as new life. This is the cycle of Death and Rebirth. Midgardsormr is tasked with protecting this cycle. If the Seal is broken, the Lifestream's course can alter, affecting the ebb and flow of aether on Hydaelyn.

This is what happened prior to the Calamity. The Garleans attempted to control the aether and ceruleum of the Lake and Midgardsormr rose to defend the Seal. When Midgardsormr was defeated, the Seal was broken and a great stream of aether washed over Eorzea, saturating the land in excess aether. It was this event that allowed the beast races to summon their Primal gods without amassing great stores of crystals in 1562. Ten years passed, and with Midgardsormr still recovering from his wounds, Bahamut was able to alter the course of the Lifestream to feed him inside of Dalamud, permanently draining Hydaelyn of Her aether and completely cutting off the natural order.

Cid Wrote:Evil approaches, and standing alone will only make you that much more vulnerable. And I speak not only of the Garlean Empire, but of something else. Something more sinister. Have you not looked up into the sky and noticed something amiss? The lesser moon, Dalamudâ”€have you not witnessed it swell like a tumor, redden like the gout?

Even the realm's natural flow of aetheric energy has been disrupted. All aether wouldâ”€should pass through Silvertear Lake upon returning to the Land, but it now appears that something is bending the energy's courseâ”€drawing it away. This has upset the balance of all life and matter in Eorzea. It is why the weather has become unpredictable, why creatures have grown large and fierce, why crystals are losing their aspect. Quite what could be drawing the aether, and what will happen if this phenomenon is allowed to continue, I cannot say. But what I can tell you with absolute certainty is that your petty quarrels over money and power are as grains of dust compared to the sandstorm that boils just over the horizon.

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(11-01-2015, 03:21 PM)Dante Abigor Wrote: Then another quote of yours mentioning the crystals being his aether mention that he is dead, so I think its fair to assume that what is death for the races of man in FFXIV dont apply to at least Midgardsormr. Its also fair to assume that his first body is "dead" since he went through the trouble of making a new one in the first place, but maybe he can have multiple bodies or whatever.

I think the trouble is that to Eorzean knowledge, it would appear that Midgardsormr died in that attack. Hell, we all thought he was truly dead until 2.5 happened and we actually started learning just what Life and Death is to a dragon and more importantly, what Midgardsormr was. We always just assumed he was some king of dragons?? So there's that point where yeah, most Eorzeans "know" Midgardsormr gave up His life in the Battle of Silvertear Skies.

But I will agree, that most likely, given that massive aether explosion of what we now assume was his own lifeforce leaving him was as close to real death as a being like Midgardsormr could achieve. In all likelihood, yes, His elderly body was ravaged beyond what a mere 15 years of slumber could repair. So, in a sense, he died as you say. But, like we've seen with Bahamut and Nidhogg - they can reanimate and reconstruct their bodies if they have enough aether to do so. Nidhogg's eyes were not destroyed, so only his corporeal form died. His soul lived on and waited for a suitable amount of aether (his eyes rejoining at the site of a Primal's demise) to reform his body. Bahamut used the aether trapped within Dalamud's coils to rebuild his massive form - even though so much of it was lost he could not fully reconstruct his body in one swoop. This is likely why Midgardsormr only appears as a small dragon at first - borrowing the aether from Hydaelyn's weak Blessing to reconstruct his body. He then later used the ambient aether dripping from Tiamat's prison to build himself a stronger form later on in the storyline.

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(11-01-2015, 03:21 PM)Dante Abigor Wrote: Another spitball thought that caught my attention in your quotes is that the Allagans were conquering everything during their reign. Why wasnt Silvertear Lake a target?

Silvertear Lake was not an Allagan target because Silvertear Lake was the birthplace of the Allagan Empire. They knew it was a great source of aether, magic, and power. That's why they built Syrcus Tower on top of the Lake, so that it could conduct the magic through the crystalline structure. That's also why they entombed Xande within the Lake! They thought the aether of the lake would restore his life.

Erik Wrote:Since ancient times, the Falls and the region of Mor Dhona in which they are located have been believed to be the seat of a great spiritual energy, as less advanced peoples are wont to call it. So old are these beliefs that the tomb of Xande himself, the first emperor of Allag, was built deep beneath the surface of Mor Dhona, in the hope that the mystical power which resided under the lake would raise him from the dead.

Why did Midgardsormr not defend the Lake against the Allagans????? We have no f'ing clue. Really, we know Midgardsormr was there. We know he was slumbering beneath the Seal. We know the Allagans decimated and dominated dragonkind. We know the Allagans built their empire around the power of Silvertear. We don't know, however, why Midgardsormr was okay with this - if he even was. /shrug.

Hopefully, we'll find this part out eventually.

Crackpot dragon theorizing (Spoilers beware)

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