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Caspar · **02-11-2016, 05:13 PM**

(02-11-2016, 04:30 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Seeing as how it gets brought up a few times, I figure I'd drop this relevant quote about Chakras:

Widargelt Wrote:The energy within us moves the fist. The chakra is the seat of that energy. It is a sacred place. It can be opened, and the life force within controlled. Chakra exists in all that lives - in all beings. Yet not all beings can open them. Much training is needed. And great discipline. With these, the life force can be commanded. There are those who require no training. Their inner strength is such that it forces the chakra open. I have heard of this happening. But never have I seen it - until now.*
*Another example of WoL doing things most normal people cannot.

This quote isn't to say that a Far Easterner couldn't control the aether within their body in ways similar to the monkhood, just that it takes a considerable amount of training, discipline, and knowledge of how these chakras work to open them, y'know unless you're the Warrior of Light. I think Oboro from the Ninja questline shows very well that Othardians aren't familiar with Eorzea's concept of Aether, but use it by another name to perform their own forms of magicks. A Ninja pulls aether from its environment much the same way a conjurer would, for example.

Oboro Wrote:We draw power from the world around us - the heaven, the earth, the hearts of man - and channel this power into physical form. I am told that this is similar to your concept of ay-ther, was it?

So a martial artist manipulating aether into their technique is not without precedence in the Far East.

He specifies it as training, but I do not see that as essentially saying it is exclusively a concept within FoR, only that very rarely does someone train hard enough to do so, and even more rarely is someone innately talented enough to do it on their own untrained. But this does raise questions of who can do it and who can't, thank you for posting that. It might be interesting to tease out what degree of suffused aether is sufficient to unlock a chakra, but since the amounts are abstractions it's not certain from what I can tell.

As for Edric, I'll address that when I get home, but the main gist of what I'm going to say (spoilers) is that again, a lot of assumptions are being made based on thematic preference being represented as fact. I'm much more concerned with ruling out things that are plainly established cannot happen rather than things that are unlikely or "unrealistic." I mean, as far as you can take that among laser-beam shooting monks.

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(02-07-2016, 06:53 PM)Caspar Wrote: The Monks are all Fists of Rhalgr. We know this much simply from the description given by the game: "Though now under Garlean rule, the city-state of Ala Mhigo once boasted the greatest military might of all Eorzea. Among its standing armies were the monksâ€”ascetic warriors as dreaded by foes on the field of battle as the city-state's great pikemen.
The monks comprised an order known as the Fist of Rhalgr, and it was to this godâ€”the Destroyerâ€”that they devoted their lives of worship. By mastering seats of power within the body known as chakra, they are capable of performing extraordinary physical feats.â€ As for the post-50 Monk story quests, those involve the Warrior of Light, who is a very very special snowflake. Trying to justify guesses by referring to the WoL just isn't reasonable, as it's a very different case when it comes to him/her.

This says nothing about what I mentioned, which is to say, the term being specific rather than generic. i.e. This doesn't say that "monk" in Hydaelyn or whatever term they would presumably used, filtered through our language lens, is specific to Ala Mhigo, or the Fists of Rhalgr. This does not say that "monk" specifically refers to any member of a monastic order either, but since that's the definition of the term and they used that word, rather than something more specific, it seems reasonable to see it as generic rather than specific. So it could apply to anyone of any monastic order anywhere, not specifically FoR. Assuming otherwise just seems to run contrary to common sense to me. It's like saying if it has four legs and stripes and looks like a horse, it's only a Zebra if it lives in this specific part of Africa.

The post-50 quests involve a fairly big change in the presumed structure of the order, and I encourage you to play them. I distinctly remember that the information, for instance, greatly changed the forum's perception of how common Monks, or even just people using FoR's fighting style, could be. That is a wide reaching lore change that has nothing to do with the WoL and is relevant to all characters concerned.

I used to think something similar, but then I figured that if any John Smith with some martial prowess and a decently trained body could unlock chakras by wandering over an area of concentrated aether, the vast majority of Ala Mhigans would have one or two chakras unlocked. We know this isn't the case though, as the Monks were a section of the army that were separate from the rest. So the obvious conclusion is that something specific to the Fists of Rhalgr/Monks is how one can unlock chakras.

It's not an obvious conclusion. The Fists are a monastic order; presumably by omission the other branches of the Ala Mhigan military are not. They use their fists, the Lancers do not. There are a dozen different reasons why the Temple is separate from the rest of the army that don't have anything to do with Chakra. The knowledge of the techniques exploiting higher level chakra and greater training seem to be obscure enough that even if you could unlock a few chakra by being in the right place at the right time and training properly by coincidence, it is unlikely you would even be aware of it and think to confer with the monks, not even knowing what it is. That's more or less what I was suggesting was possible; not a sudden awakening or enlightenment sort of deal.

Although it may be possible for another group to somehow discover the use of internal aether, I think I've already explained why it's specific to Gyr Abania and the Fists of Rhalgr. If my memory fails me and I haven't, here's a quick overview: the religious aspects (Rhalgr's destructive nature, specifically) are most likely paramount, Gyr Abania is the perfect place for it, Ala Mhigans are some of the best physical specimens we know of, and simply the fact that the Monks were feared by the other city states. If this knowledge and way of fighting was discovered elsewhere, it would be snapped up by militaries just because of how big a difference even a few 'unlocked chakra' makes. This didn't happen.

I'm going to ignore the bit about Ala Mhigan physicality (Thoroughly buried horse) and suggest that being an empirically quantifiable phenomenon, it may simply be too poorly understood or accepted outside of insular circles of martial artists to have been taken seriously by the world at large. Even a fellow Ala Mhigan is skeptical of the mere existence of Chakra as the monks portray it, and simply refers to it in different terms. The religious aspect may not be as important as you think, either, since Rhalgr or no, the Chakra is there. Ultimately we know too little about the distinction between simply utilizing aether to strengthen oneself martially and the manipulation of the Chakra to really make any strong conclusions. This is why I say that is the portrayal of impressions or thematic preference as fact.

I do say "It's the WoL, they're a special snowflake," because that's exactly the reason the player character can do so many amazing things. I don't know where you're getting the idea that Mr. Friendship is Magic (Widargelt) doesn't know about that method of gaining chakras, considering he's not only the one to tell you about it, you also spend the first few Monk quests going to said locations. Also, I don't think it's ever said that Wildargelt is some kind of higher up when it comes to the Monks. Heck, he didn't even have all of his sect's chakras unlocked when you first meet him; he's simply someone who managed to escape the purge. Keep in mind that I haven't done the quests in a while though, so feel free to throw some quotes my way.

When I speak of this, I mean generally the assumptions throughout the questline that killing the foe, particularly Chakra-enhanced Shadow sect monks, is the only way to unlock greater Chakra, prove false. I felt that this was in line with the narrative bent of the MNK storyline being about "preserving life through power" along what Erik stated in the 50 quest, not necessarily a special attribute of the WoL. To me at least, it renders a lot of the beliefs of the order suspect, since the entire storyline involves someone repeatedly proving their assumptions about how the Chakra work wrong. I see it as less that the WoL was special to be physically capable of doing this, and more that she is special because she was the only one insightful enough to question their dogma. Unlikely, yes, but the storyline is about making the player feel competent and powerful, for better or for worse.

I think the technique developed by the Monks/Fists of Rhalgr is a product of their unique position in the world and circumstances. Sure, it's possible someone somewhere figured it out too, but I think it's no more likely than someone in Limsa deciding they can jump from ship to ship like a Dragoon, poking at masts with their spear.

I would believe this if the style was gifted to their order directly from Rhalgr himself, or if the style fit in any way specifically with unique features of the region, or if a legendary relic designed to help open the Chakra was explicitly connected to FoR.

With how devout the Fists were, I doubt the likelihood of one moving on to the side where worshipping the Twelve is forbidden. As for the Star Wars reference, I already went over why it would be unlikely for a Monk to choose Othard as their place to retreat to.

Unlikely, but not impossible. OP wanted ideas on how to create a character, and I gave some ideas. I feel it is not entirely honest to say it can't be done, so I try to entertain theories on how it could happen, no matter how unlikely. It is fiction, and sometimes fiction is about the exceptions and not the rule. Actually, a little more often than sometimes.

Using other works of fiction to support theories in another one is extremely iffy. This isn't a Kung Fu movie where the hero always finds a way to win, it's a brutal world where religious secrets wouldn't just be 'figured out' by someone who tries hard enough.

This is a digression, but I sort of couldn't let this pass.

Actually, a common element of wuxia entertainment and earlier kung fu film (Rather than the slapstick comedy we're used to in the West) is the idea that for all their strength, the martial artists and chi-infused errant swordsmen of the jianghu world never truly overcome the evil they struggle against. One person cannot change the world, or eradicate evil or inequity permanently simply because they're willful or skilled enough. Political and social power mean a lot more than being able to strike a man dead with your bare hands. Most of the stories are sobering tragedies in the end where heroism is rendered moot by the failures of men, morally and intellectually. Given that a lot of Chinese fantasy is essentially historical fiction, it's no spoiler to say most of the time the tyrants win in the end.
The destruction of the temple actually seems to me to be a similar idea. For all their strength, the Monks were completely unable to stop a tyrant from ruining the country they swore to protect.
These stories also are pretty brutal with the emphasis on talent. A person who has no potential to use an internal technique will probably never reach the level of strength that someone who can do them will. It is definitely not something anyone can do with ease.
I bring this up because I feel it's important to emphasize how much personal experience with entertainment can really affect your impression of any story as it's presented. The wuxia narrative cannot be removed from rebellion and social upheaval. Just as your background in entertainment of specific types colors your impression of the in game narrative, others also carry similar impressions and can look at the same data and see an entirely different scale of believability. It's impossible to remove that element of interpretation, and that's why I try not to characterize anything that isn't provably set in stone as fact.

It sounds more like your character is drawing upon something more akin to the Warriors of Abalathia's Spine, who control their inner anger to increase their power. I'm also afraid to say that "instinctual use of Aether" and "reflex and raw talent" wouldn't cut it when you're dealing with internal aether. First off, the reason using internal aether requires so much concentration and training is that the average person's body just simply can't hold more than their base amount of aether. That's why years and years of training need to be undergone before 'chakras' can be 'unlocked'.

Also, since you referenced IRL sources when talking about martial arts, I'll do the same. No one I've ever met, in decades of MMA and self defense, has a natural talent for fighting. Some people are naturally more violent, some might be able to take a hit better, but no one steps into a ring or a fight and can simply let their instincts win for them. That's a myth, and is a silly thing to bring up outside of children's cartoons made for inspiration. When you see talk of a fighter's body 'moving by itself', it's muscle memory. I won't go into the detailed neurological reasons for this, but if you repeat a movement something over and over, it gets extremely easy for your body to repeat that motion. This gets to the point where it's your natural reflex to do something.

So it's extremely unlikely that someone could use something as volatile as internal aether without formal training in that specific area, not without ripping their body to shreds trying. Just giving some constructive criticism, not trying to insult your character or NPCs.

I play a character who couldn't physically stand up in real life given her proportions.

When MMA can teach us to fire laserbeams made of chi and glowing slashes that rip the earth beneath us into pebbles, then we can discuss how your training applies to the setting.

If you want to discuss further what you feel is "wrong" with how I'm writing my characters, do it through PM, since this is tract and thematic preference unrelated to the thread. Suffice to say, while I have some basic familiarity with martial arts, I'm not an expert or even a dedicated practitioner, and my goal is to entertain not educate. I don't draw from personal experience, but from fiction and themes appropriate to the narrative I want to write about.

I will say that this entire paragraph is comprised of assumptions, and I would caution you against using this as a measuring stick of what is or should be canon. From what I've seen, the setting doesn't do the greatest job of enforcing the rules you're playing by.

I haven't touched that job, but from what I've heard of the ninja storyline, their skills resemble some rubbish from Naruto, so I can't comment on anything ninja related and would be wary about using it, considering my preference for relative realism in RP. I also tend not to use ideas in my characters unless they have at least some information to support them in the actual game, but that's just me.

They're older tropes than Naruto. I'm never exactly been a fan of that show either, but it's hardly unrealistic given what we've seen in this magical fantasy setting.

It's sort of unfair to call it rubbish though. Thematically it doesn't appeal to you, but it's a part of the setting whether you want to accept it or not.

On another note, they call chi Chakra in Naruto, or so I hear.

Melkire · **02-11-2016, 05:14 PM**

I do want to point out that the Fist of Rhalgr were an order of monks out of Gyr Abania that were commonly associated with Ala Mhigo. That order is no more; it was wiped out shortly prior to the Empire invading, conquering, and annexing Ala Mhigo. For any character to be considered a disciple of the Fist, they'd have to be middle-aged and have been present in Gyr Abania roughly twenty cycles (years) ago in order to have been trained by the Fist.

Erik specifically refers to Widargelt as a "monk of Ala Mhigo". Widargelt refers to himself as a "brother of the monkhood" and states that his "order is the Fist of Rhalgr". He later speaks "of the monkhood and the Fist." There's a clear distinction there.

All war-priests and disciples of the Fist of Rhalgr were monks, but not all monks are war-priests or disciples of the Fist of Rhalgr. It's fairly obvious from the 30-50 MNK quest dialogue that the Fist were but a single order of monks. That there are or were more orders that we are currently unaware of is quite likely, and that in itself implies that there could be monks not native to Gyr Abania or Ala Mhigo, even if they aren't known as "monks".

Sounsyy · **02-11-2016, 07:17 PM**

(02-11-2016, 05:13 PM)Caspar Wrote: He specifies it as training, but I do not see that as essentially saying it is exclusively a concept within FoR

Nor did I? I think I said as much just after the quote?

(02-11-2016, 05:14 PM)Melkire Wrote: Erik specifically refers to Widargelt as a "monk of Ala Mhigo". Widargelt refers to himself as a "brother of the monkhood" and states that his "order is the Fist of Rhalgr". He later speaks "of the monkhood and the Fist." There's a clear distinction there.

I'd never noticed this before so I went digging and found a few instances where this occurs. But, in each of those occurrences, the speaker goes on to use the monkhood and the Fists as interchangeable. Which has me wondering... what is the distinction? The only thing I could really think of was that there was the monkhood, or multiple sects part of the monkhood, but only those who had finished their training and were given the Soulstone were considered Fists of Rhalgr. Thoughts?

Widargelt Wrote:I am not angered. He tried to sway me from my path. He believes resistance will only leave more dead. I expected as much from him. I feigned understanding. He asked much of me. Of the monkhood and the Fist. He asked of the seventh chakra.

See, there's that separation again... but now look at this text later from the same quest:

Widargelt Wrote:Yours is a great strength. Unite it to ours, sister. Help us reclaim our home. Your efforts will be rewarded. Look upon my garments. This is the war garb of the monkhood. It attunes to its wearer. It empowers the chakra. Enables it to realize its full potential. The cloth is imbued with the power of Rhalgr. Only monks of his Fist may don it. Only those who overcome many trials. You need not enter the Fist. I require you to speak no vows. I ask only that you fight. Give yourself to our cause.

The above makes it sound like the monkhood and the Fists of Rhalgr are one in the same. Another example:

Erik Wrote:The monks and the Fist of Rhalgr are interesting in the same way as any other organized relgion - a sad, pathetic, and humorous way. The brothers and sisters of the monkhood are those souls training in the service of Rhalgr, god of destruction among the Twelve. The Fist of Rhalgr is their order.

Here it is again, and then at the end of that same quote, it says "their" as in the monkhood's order is the Fist of Rhalgr. So they're separate but the same? Which leads me to believe in the higher echelons theory.

Widargelt Wrote:This is a soul crystal. It is the mark of my order. Only those in the monkhood may carry it. It is given to novices upon completion of their training. But I have witnessed your transformation. You are ready. Take it. Many bore that crystal before you. It remembers them. Their breath and their movement. They will one day be yours. But your chakra must open further. Only then can the crystal's memories enter you.

Idk...

Caspar · **02-11-2016, 07:49 PM**

It might be the Fists of Rhalgr are the elite among the monks. I admit it's not a distinction I thought about much. Or it could be explicitly the militarized element of the monks, like the distinction between a buddhist priest and the Ikko-Ikki.

Melkire · **02-11-2016, 08:13 PM**

That there is some sort of distinction seems plain to me, given that last statement from Erik that Sounsyy quoted. "The Fist of Rhalgr is their order". So I'd say yes, probably a militarized organization or something along those lines. You could be trained as a monk but would likely still need to be inducted into said order. I mentioned "war-priests" earlier because I recall reading something from over on the Official Forums that described the Fist as a very religious and militarized order/sect/organization/what-have-you.

As a sidenote, found this tidbit for monk/pugilist lovers while poring through relic quest dialogue to find out whether Ivon Coeurlfist was of the Fist.

Gerolt Wrote:Accordin' to the writer, the Sphairai ain't no ordinary weapon.

Apparently, they're tools for tappin' a monk's â€œchakraâ€â”€whatever the hells that isâ”€throwin' open the floodgates...or summat.

Buggered if I know how it works. But I do know the fists need some crystals embedded in them.

Eh? Chakra's the aether what courses through yer body, ye say?

Interesting confirmation that there are some aetherial / metaphysical / physical aspects to chakra, and that chakra basically describes internal aether and/or associated internalized processes.

To wrap back around onto the original topic: aether-wielding martial artist is a go. The likelihood of an Othardian Fist is rather low, an Othardian monk in the Ala Mhigan sense somewhat more likely, an Othardian pugilist quite possible so long as pugilism isn't a specific style exclusive to the Ul'dahn guild (which it doesn't seem to be, but I can see arguments for it).

EDIT:

Found it. Info dump from Erik, apparently.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threa...-Spoilers)

"It was thought that all versed in the ways of the chakra were lost... But then what of this Widargelt simpleton? Just who is he? Perhaps the end of the Fist was not the end of the monks after all."

Yssen · **02-11-2016, 09:14 PM**

(02-11-2016, 07:17 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(02-11-2016, 05:13 PM)Caspar Wrote: He specifies it as training, but I do not see that as essentially saying it is exclusively a concept within FoR

Nor did I? I think I said as much just after the quote?

(02-11-2016, 05:14 PM)Melkire Wrote: Erik specifically refers to Widargelt as a "monk of Ala Mhigo". Widargelt refers to himself as a "brother of the monkhood" and states that his "order is the Fist of Rhalgr". He later speaks "of the monkhood and the Fist." There's a clear distinction there.

I'd never noticed this before so I went digging and found a few instances where this occurs. But, in each of those occurrences, the speaker goes on to use the monkhood and the Fists as interchangeable. Which has me wondering... what is the distinction? The only thing I could really think of was that there was the monkhood, or multiple sects part of the monkhood, but only those who had finished their training and were given the Soulstone were considered Fists of Rhalgr. Thoughts?

Widargelt Wrote:I am not angered. He tried to sway me from my path. He believes resistance will only leave more dead. I expected as much from him. I feigned understanding. He asked much of me. Of the monkhood and the Fist. He asked of the seventh chakra.

See, there's that separation again... but now look at this text later from the same quest:

Widargelt Wrote:Yours is a great strength. Unite it to ours, sister. Help us reclaim our home. Your efforts will be rewarded. Look upon my garments. This is the war garb of the monkhood. It attunes to its wearer. It empowers the chakra. Enables it to realize its full potential. The cloth is imbued with the power of Rhalgr. Only monks of his Fist may don it. Only those who overcome many trials. You need not enter the Fist. I require you to speak no vows. I ask only that you fight. Give yourself to our cause.

The above makes it sound like the monkhood and the Fists of Rhalgr are one in the same. Another example:

Erik Wrote:The monks and the Fist of Rhalgr are interesting in the same way as any other organized relgion - a sad, pathetic, and humorous way. The brothers and sisters of the monkhood are those souls training in the service of Rhalgr, god of destruction among the Twelve. The Fist of Rhalgr is their order.

Here it is again, and then at the end of that same quote, it says "their" as in the monkhood's order is the Fist of Rhalgr. So they're separate but the same? Which leads me to believe in the higher echelons theory.

Widargelt Wrote:This is a soul crystal. It is the mark of my order. Only those in the monkhood may carry it. It is given to novices upon completion of their training. But I have witnessed your transformation. You are ready. Take it. Many bore that crystal before you. It remembers them. Their breath and their movement. They will one day be yours. But your chakra must open further. Only then can the crystal's memories enter you.

Idk...

I see what you are saying about the interchanging nature of the terms, Soussy. Might be a bit of a text tease for the Shadow sect? Although I cannot think of why Widargelt would make the distinct separation with no prior knowledge of them. It is possible he is referring to the Monkhood to include trainees, but he doesn't call his new trainees Monks in the post 60 stuff, does he? It does seem to point to the fact that the monkhood is more than just the fists. We'll probably have to wait until the lvl cap is 70 to find out exactly what that means.

Slight edit - I just noticed that the third quote puts a distinction between novices and the monkhood in the area of soul stones. So... yeah, not inclusive of trainees so much.

Caspar · **02-12-2016, 04:07 AM**

(02-11-2016, 08:13 PM)Melkire Wrote: That there is some sort of distinction seems plain to me, given that last statement from Erik that Sounsyy quoted. "The Fist of Rhalgr is their order". So I'd say yes, probably a militarized organization or something along those lines. You could be trained as a monk but would likely still need to be inducted into said order. I mentioned "war-priests" earlier because I recall reading something from over on the Official Forums that described the Fist as a very religious and militarized order/sect/organization/what-have-you.

As a sidenote, found this tidbit for monk/pugilist lovers while poring through relic quest dialogue to find out whether Ivon Coeurlfist was of the Fist.

Gerolt Wrote:Accordin' to the writer, the Sphairai ain't no ordinary weapon.

Apparently, they're tools for tappin' a monk's â€œchakraâ€â”€whatever the hells that isâ”€throwin' open the floodgates...or summat.

Buggered if I know how it works. But I do know the fists need some crystals embedded in them.

Eh? Chakra's the aether what courses through yer body, ye say?

Interesting confirmation that there are some aetherial / metaphysical / physical aspects to chakra, and that chakra basically describes internal aether and/or associated internalized processes.

To wrap back around onto the original topic: aether-wielding martial artist is a go. The likelihood of an Othardian Fist is rather low, an Othardian monk in the Ala Mhigan sense somewhat more likely, an Othardian pugilist quite possible so long as pugilism isn't a specific style exclusive to the Ul'dahn guild (which it doesn't seem to be, but I can see arguments for it).

EDIT:

Found it. Info dump from Erik, apparently.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threa...-Spoilers)

"It was thought that all versed in the ways of the chakra were lost... But then what of this Widargelt simpleton? Just who is he? Perhaps the end of the Fist was not the end of the monks after all."

This is very interesting. It's too bad we don't know more about Ivor. It would probably shed light on a lot of things discussed here, lol.

I think the introduction to Pugilism says that the style used in the guild was created by a gladiator named Cordelia from Ul'dah, and so while pugilism seems to me to be a generic term, there is a specific local style of pugilism that came out of Bloodsands matches, though I dunno how that interacts with the whole debt collectors for the Platinum Mirage part of their history.

That being said the Garleans have martial artists in their military, so while the game uses PGL as shorthand for their fighting styles, whatever they study, it probably wasn't the same as what's taught in Ul'dah. It seems pretty likely similar traditions of unarmed fighting exist elsewhere in the world.

Josuke · **02-12-2016, 07:55 PM**

Oh man..thank everyone so much for the breakdown here!Â Big Grin

Aether-wielding Martial Artist is a GO! as Melkire said.

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