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Gegenji · **01-22-2015, 03:20 PM**

My theory is thus:

When the PC entered Eorzea, they are gifted with two things. One being the Echo - the ability to see people's pasts, understand languages, and see otherworldly beings that also have the Echo (aka Ascians and the spirit form of that one Sahagin) - and the other being the Light, which is effectively Hydaelyn herself using the PC as a medium with which to exert her Will upon... well, Hydaelyn. The Echo makes one special, sure, but it is the Light that makes the PC the Warrior of Light - after all, Minfilia also has the Echo and no one refers to HER as a Warrior of Light (though I could think of plenty of other good reasons as well...).

However, with Bahamut up in Dalamud having drained the Lifestream to the extent he did during the cataclysm - along with our new friend Middy also potentially leeching her power to recover from his double-KO with the Agrias - Hydaelyn herself is still recovering and thus does not possess the power she should. The most she could do was still quite impressive - the aforementioned ripping of primal energy from Ultima Weapon and stopping the trademark Final Fantasy super-spell from eradicating the PC and his allies - but is also quite taxing on her still recovering reserves.

Enter Middy, who made a sort of covenant at some distant point in time and honors it by stripping the PC of the Light and offering his own protection instead. With the PC no longer Hydaelyn's medium, they no longer have access to Her divine protection in the form of the Light. However, we now have the protection of a great ancient wyrm who is supposedly on the verge of recovery. Perhaps the covenant is to protect her Chosen in her stead if she is in no position to do so? She certainly doesn't seem to be in a position to protect the PC like she wishes.

However, the Echo and the Light are two separate things. The Echo itself is a second gift - or perhaps a trait inherent in all life that can be turned "on" or "off" by a being of enough power - while the Light was us being a conduit for Hydaelyn's power. So, while the latter is gone by Middy, the PC still retains the former until such a time as it is taken from them... if can be taken away again once given.

So... um... yeah. Blush

Recoil · **01-22-2015, 04:43 PM**

It's been feeling to me that while we mortal adventurers have the potential to tap into the skilled known as the Echo, perhaps due to natural affinity to the World's aether, which enables those with the Echo a magically inclined empathy and heightened mental fortitude, the Light and Crystal blessing was / is still an entirely separate force.

No matter what the being or system is, self preservation is usually the default drive; Hydaelyn has always been aware of how sensitive and delicate it's world is, and that the Ascians, Dalamud, and whatever other forces we've had to face have always indirectly brought a threat to the Hydaelyn and the Aether.Â

Where as Middy may have once been her means of an immune system within this, along with potential other unnamed forces, we're now in the best position to do what absent forces and creatures have been doing. We're not necessarily special nor are overly outstanding as the mortal races we are, but we're aware of what's going on and willing to lay our lives down, which is exactly what Hyd needs. The tenderness shown towards us via her words, speeches, or visions have been simply means to further convince the present organism to behave as her symbiotic protector.Â

This blessing also has been what gave people a direct connection to the Aether so that the primals could be easily beckoned. Because Middy is potentially returning, we've served our purpose and he's now to take his default position. We no longer need her because Hyd now has a more reliable means to protect herself. Likewise, Middy knows what we've been capable of -- what the Ascian are capable of, and I think his last intention would be to ever allow us to mishandle that power, as the Ascian and Garleans might've.Â

idk...

Leomoon · **01-24-2015, 04:17 AM**

We Where blessed with the Echo and the crystals that gave us power but Midgardormr was so strong he should shatter the blessing and null are Echo into nothing that is why Nabriales was such a threat afterwards. We no longer held the blessing of Hydalyn and this he could walk into that place and take the staff from Sions.

The Blessing was with the Echo but it has since become weak after the Battle with Ultima because Hydalyn was no longer watching us.

Zyrusticae · **01-24-2015, 01:31 PM**

I thought it was interesting to note just how big the difference was between Lahabrea's fight and Nabriales'. Lahabrea was particularly easy - a total cakewalk - in comparison to Nabriales, and I think a lot of that is down to the power of Hydaelyn's blessing. Shorn of our blessing as we were, what would otherwise have been an absurdly easy fight became a serious threat to our mortal existence. Where even the pathetic ilvls (an abstraction to represent our personal power) we had at launch was enough to ignore most of Lahabrea's attacks, we needed all of our skill, might, and mental faculties to defeat Nabriales without falling victim to his (and note that we had improved by leaps and bounds since the time we fought Lahabrea).

I'll be very curious to see how they handle these things moving forward. Will Midgardsormr serve to bolster our strength in lieu of Hydaelyns' Blessing? Or will we be forced to carry ourselves on our own two legs against such supernatural might?

SeijiTataki · **01-24-2015, 04:33 PM**

(01-24-2015, 01:31 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: I thought it was interesting to note just how big the difference was between Lahabrea's fight and Nabriales'. Lahabrea was particularly easy - a total cakewalk - in comparison to Nabriales, and I think a lot of that is down to the power of Hydaelyn's blessing. Shorn of our blessing as we were, what would otherwise have been an absurdly easy fight became a serious threat to our mortal existence. Where even the pathetic ilvls (an abstraction to represent our personal power) we had at launch was enough to ignore most of Lahabrea's attacks, we needed all of our skill, might, and mental faculties to defeat Nabriales without falling victim to his (and note that we had improved by leaps and bounds since the time we fought Lahabrea).

I'll be very curious to see how they handle these things moving forward. Will Midgardsormr serve to bolster our strength in lieu of Hydaelyns' Blessing? Or will we be forced to carry ourselves on our own two legs against such supernatural might?

Nabriales actually makes a specific comment at the start of his fight that he has no intent of holding back at all against you, unlike Lahabrea. Considering that all Lahabrea did was stand there and fling a few minor spells at you when presumably the two of them have similar powers and abilities, even if we were somehow weaker against the Ascians because of the lack of blessing, it's entirely plausible that Lahabrea simply didn't care to go full out. Nabriales implies that while we had the blessing we couldn't really be harmed, so it's entirely possible that Lahabrea was aware of this too, and was merely testing the limits to how much that protection had sway; IE he was just doing whatever to try and discourage you or even just to test the limits of the actual protection we had since he knew doing anything serious was ultimately futile as long as Hydaelyn had watch.

Regarding Echo vs Protection:

The player always had the Echo, but did not always have Hydaelyn's Protection.

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Goodfellow · **01-24-2015, 08:35 PM**

So if Hydaelyn's protection is what keeps us from being tempered and not the Echo (meaning Minfilia was mistaken), and Ifrit likened her protection to tempering (i.e. he couldn't temper us because we were already claimed/tempered), then what does Midgardsormr's action mean about the assumed permanence of tempering?

Sounsyy · **01-24-2015, 08:52 PM**

(01-24-2015, 08:35 PM)Goodfellow Wrote: ...then what does Midgardsormr's action mean about the assumed permanence of tempering?

Tempering is not necessarily permanent. Spoilers aside, a Primal may choose to release their subject(s) from their Temper at any time. However, short of this, there's no other known way to break tempering.

Kellach Woods · **01-24-2015, 09:00 PM**

(01-24-2015, 08:52 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Tempering is not necessarily permanent. Spoilers aside, a Primal may choose to release their subject(s) from their Temper at any time. However, short of this, there's no other known way to break tempering.

Has there been a record of such a thing happening, or are we assuming that the primals can call it back if they so wish?

Kage · **01-24-2015, 09:05 PM**

A lore post from Fern a long time back very much insinuated that tempering may be undone through a cure or not it is unknown. But if a primal can giveth they can tale away especially if they can control how much tempering is done.

Kellach Woods · **01-24-2015, 09:17 PM**

so, all we have to go on is a post that says it's something that can maybe happen.

I wonder if you're as bad as Captain Madison, if that can be taken away. Honestly wish they'd go back to him because now that he's in custody, they can probably do something terrible like experiment on him.

Sounsyy · **01-24-2015, 09:39 PM**

(01-24-2015, 09:00 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(01-24-2015, 08:52 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Tempering is not necessarily permanent. Spoilers aside, a Primal may choose to release their subject(s) from their Temper at any time. However, short of this, there's no other known way to break tempering.

Has there been a record of such a thing happening, or are we assuming that the primals can call it back if they so wish?

/cough

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Kellach Woods · **01-24-2015, 09:43 PM**

(01-24-2015, 09:39 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: /cough

Yeah, chances of me doing Coil is close to zero.

And while it may not be tempering, we also have an incident in WoD that shows that even those lost to the Void can return.

Zyrusticae · **01-25-2015, 02:11 AM**

(01-24-2015, 04:33 PM)SeijiTataki Wrote: Nabriales actually makes a specific comment at the start of his fight that he has no intent of holding back at all against you, unlike Lahabrea. Considering that all Lahabrea did was stand there and fling a few minor spells at you when presumably the two of them have similar powers and abilities, even if we were somehow weaker against the Ascians because of the lack of blessing, it's entirely plausible that Lahabrea simply didn't care to go full out. Nabriales implies that while we had the blessing we couldn't really be harmed, so it's entirely possible that Lahabrea was aware of this too, and was merely testing the limits to how much that protection had sway; IE he was just doing whatever to try and discourage you or even just to test the limits of the actual protection we had since he knew doing anything serious was ultimately futile as long as Hydaelyn had watch.

I don't buy it. I took it as typical video game villain swagger where he plays up his own abilities over that of his peers. Lahabrea obviously did not expect to be rebuffed to such a degree and was clearly attempting to destroy us utterly (listen to his dialogue! Guy is going all out for sure). Plus, while there is obviously going to be overlap between their abilities because they come from the same stock (whatever it is that Ascians pull their power from), they're also going to have their own quirks and nuances because they're all different people, just like the Scions all have their own specialties. Nabriales, after all, came from an entirely different world from Lahabrea. Who knows what kind of magic they used where he came from?

If Lahabrea shows up again and starts casting magic he never used before... well, we can have this discussion again then. Honestly, I doubt we're going to see him again, at least not for awhile, seeing as how he's lost face among his compatriots after his previous efforts. It wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't using his full repertoire, but then I doubt it was for lack of trying.

Aysun · **01-25-2015, 02:58 PM**

I had someone approach me about this situation when they did the MSQ. They wondered how I would handle it, being as my character is a snowflake who has the Echo ICly. A hold over from my ignorance in 1.0 (using the intro to Ul'dah which turned out to be an Echo experience in her history, fighting primals IC), she HAD to have it. I had to clarify to the person in question that my character, while having the Echo and being an original Warrior of Light timewarper, is not THE Warrior of Light from the MSQ. Never had Hydaelyn's Light blessing, never met Midgarskdjfsa. Would be unaffected even if he was taking the Echo from the WoL.

When I went through the MSQ, it never even occurred to me that it'd be a problem anyway. The Echo and the Light/Crystal blessing are two different things to me, and apparently from reading this thread that's correct.

The Echo grants primal immunity, and language understanding, etc. In 1.0 there were varying degrees of strength of Echo, which as people have noticed must be a retcon now - in 1.0 Minfilia had it and it was much weaker than your own, as she did not understand the Sylphs. It is probably from Hydaelyn - maybe being tempered by Her? Unsure still! Either way, the Blessing of Light that she bestows as you collect the crystals for her in the 2.0 MSQ makes you THE Warrior of Light - who is also an adventurer who has the Echo. Many adventurers have it, after all.

So Midsgarskdjfds took that Blessing of Light, however since you are still able to understand the Ascian, the Echo is still in tact. Primal immunity should also still be in tact.

It did get a little confusing, though, what with having the mysterious Echo and being Hydaelyn's chosen warrior.. >>

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Differences between the Echo and Hydaelyn's Blessing?

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