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J'rhazi Tia · **09-21-2017, 10:51 AM**

Is there some sort of formal challenge that must be issued before a Tia can fight a Nunh? Or does the breeding male always just have to watch his back for potential challengers?
Also, how does magic contribute to the challenge, if at all? The lore I have seen thus far seems to say that the male that is physically strongest has the title of Nunh, but what if some scrawny black mage kicks the crap out of the Nunh using his abilities? Is that taken into account at all?Â

Writing backstory, thanks in advance for your help!

Valence · **09-21-2017, 11:46 AM**

All evidence I have seen seems to point in the direction that it's formal combat. It's not about slicing the throat of the nunh during the night.Â

The Mole tribe quests in SB portray a young Tia constantly challenging the nunh, and he does it formally every time, which ends up in combat. Â The Drake tribe (U) quests are less direct about it, but the two Tia competing for nunh constantly try to improve their martial prowess and leadership skills in order to challenge the nunh. It's unclear how exactly this has to be handled here though.

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:Young males are born and raised as "tia", and must either assume the position of nunh by challenging and defeating an existing nunh in singe combat, or leave the community and find a harem of his own.

U'khuba Tia Wrote:The law is clearâ”€to become the nunh of the U tribe, one must defeat the current nunh. In my case, this means U'odh nunh.

U'khuba Tia Wrote:However, in order to win the right to challenge U'odh, I must first triumph over U'tykha. He stands in my way, and I in his. In this manner the nunh is protected from constant challenge.

Mole Tribe Sidequests Wrote:An unruly young Seeker of the Sun has been challenging M'rahz nunh to combat without cease, each attempt more futile than the last. While most would find these duels to be an annoyance, M'rahz nunh sees this persistence as admirable. That is why he asks you to train this would-be warrior. He says your new student can be found idling about Virdjala.

Mole Tribe Sidequests Wrote:Bearing witness to your battle against the gazelle has left M'zhet duly inspired. So much so, he is confident he can defeat M'rahz nunh at this very moment. But first, he would ponder his plan of attack.

Recounting the shame of his past has reaffirmed M'zhet Tia's resolve to defeat M'rahz nunh and become leader of the M tribe. He pleads with you to continue his training that he might challenge the M tribe leader once more.

M'zhet Tia is determined to defeat M'rahz nunh. Believing he has found the means to harden himself for battle, he bids you follow him to where he has been keeping to a safe location for training.

M'zhet Tia is battered and bruised, but not beaten. Despite his appearance, he claims he is stronger than ever. Perhaps even strong enough to defeat M'rahz nunh. After a short rest, that is.

Mole Tribe Sidequests Wrote:M'rahz nunh agrees to duel. However, he insists on moving the battle to a ravine southeast of the Peering Stones. M'zhet consents and takes his leave of the camp. You follow him to the ravine and wait for the fight to begin.

M'razh Nunh Wrote:M'zhet. Have you come to challenge me once more for the title of nunh?

M'zet Tia Wrote:The next time we meet, you'll addressing me as M'zhet nunh. At least I hope so. I also expect a rematch for that first thrashing you gave me.

As far as I recall the lore doesn't point at the strongest, but the most physically fit or worthy. It's not necessarily impossible for someone weak physically and strong in magic to fit the bill, perhaps? I have never seen anything saying it must specifically be physical, added to the fact that the story and quests rarely seem to make any difference in Eorzea between physical fighters and mages (think Sadu vs Magnai among others).

The compete for breeding rights, and strong magical affinity, I believe, is also a proof of your "superior" genes.

U'odh Nunh Wrote:The nunh I once fought also believed that his strrrength would save him. He was wrong, and now I am nunh.

Which doesn't exactly say anything about magic, but sure says something about strenght here.

J'rhazi Tia · **09-21-2017, 12:17 PM**

That's a lot of info!!!

Thank you sooo much, this helps me quite a bit!

Aegir · **09-21-2017, 12:19 PM**

For those looking on advice for the opposite:

[Image: tumblr_os68fliD7C1vfi4y5o1_1280.jpg]

[Image: tumblr_os68fliD7C1vfi4y5o2_1280.jpg]

[Image: tumblr_os68fliD7C1vfi4y5o3_1280.jpg]

Sounsyy · **09-21-2017, 01:05 PM**

(09-21-2017, 10:51 AM)Jrhazi Tia Wrote: Is there some sort of formal challenge that must be issued before a Tia can fight a Nunh? Or does the breeding male always just have to watch his back for potential challengers?

This may ultimately vary from tribe to tribe, or even sect to sect. For instance, in the Gyr Abanian Marmot tribe, M'rahz Nunh says the Nunh is formally invited to a duel by the challenging Tia:

M'rahz Nunh Wrote:In recent days, a young Seeker of the Sun has seen fit to issue me several challenges to combat. I can only assume he means to assume the role of nunh and leader of our people. Tradition dictates the strongest among us must take the position, so I gladly face any who believe they are fit to lead. The problem, however, is this challenger is decidedly weak. Yet no matter how many times I put him down, he refuses to concede.

His invitations to duel were a mild annoyance at first, but I've come to find his single-minded determination to be intriguing. In fact, I was hoping you would consider training him. I realize how absurd it sounds to help my rival-to-be, but I am curious of his potential. There was a time when I was the weakest of the males in the M tribe. It wasn't easy, but through rigorous training, I eventually grew to become the man you see before you. I see much of myself in that young Miqo'te. Our tribe could stand to have more like him.

But in the Drake tribe in the Sagolii Desert, a Tia must first overcome a rival Tia in combat before he is even allowed to face the Nunh of the tribe:

U'khuba Tia Wrote:The law is clearâ”€to become the nunh of the U tribe, one must defeat the current nunh. In my case, this means U'odh Nunh. However, in order to win the right to challenge U'odh, I must first triumph over U'tykha. He stands in my way, and I in his. In this manner the nunh is protected from constant challenge. But to defeat U'tykha, my arms must be impeccable; a fool he may be, but weak he is not. I shall make new arrowheads, and for that I need barbs from a yarzon.

__________________________

(09-21-2017, 10:51 AM)Jrhazi Tia Wrote: Also, how does magic contribute to the challenge, if at all? The lore I have seen thus far seems to say that the male that is physically strongest has the title of Nunh, but what if some scrawny black mage kicks the crap out of the Nunh using his abilities? Is that taken into account at all?

We've not seen this happen yet, so it's hard to say. Though in all fairness, what we've seen of the tribal lifestyle and their nunhs is incredibly limited in scope. Of the two examples we've seen, both M and U tribes demand displays of physical strength. Remember that first and foremost, a Nunh is a breeding male. He may also be a tribe leader (willing or not), but his primary duty is carry on the tribe's legacy and pass on the "strongest" genes. This is likely why peak physical prowess is preferred method of challenge in the tribes we've seen.

That said, there could be a tribe or sect of a tribe out there who value cunning, intellect, or aetherial prowess over physical strength and seek to carry on these traits through breeding. We've not seen it yet, but it's not impossible. In these tribes or sects, a Nunh with a greater aetherial fortitude, or anima, may be more desirable.

In any case, I'll drop some Seeker lore down below:

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Seeker of the Sun Lore

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:Unsurprisingly, given their self-bestowed clan name, the Seekers of the Sun count numerous devotees of Azeyma, the Warden, among their ranks. While their overall numbers are not great, their twenty-six tribes are scattered across all reaches of the realm, with small Seeker settlements to be found from the sands of the Sagolii Desert in southern Thanalan to the jagged peaks of Gyr Abania. Yet other Seekers have settled in Limsa Lominsa, drawn to the freedom of pirate life. Many Seekers, particularly those of the younger generation, choose to set off as adventurers, perhaps heeding the same call of the wild their ancestors once heard.

Lodestone Wrote:The self-proclaimed Seekers of the Sun are the diurnal clan of the Miqo'te race. Their preference for the warm light of day pervades all aspects of their culture, as is apparent in their devout reverence for Azeyma the Warden, goddess of the sun. Though relatively few in Eorzea, a small number of them have been accepted into everyday life by the other races in the port city of Limsa Lominsa. Others are known to make their home in the region of the Sagolii Desert.

1.0 Lodestone Wrote:The self-proclaimed Seekers of the Sun are the diurnal clan of the Miqo'te race. Their preference for the warm light of day pervades all aspects of their culture, as is apparent in their devout reverence for Azeyma the Warden, goddess of the sun.
They are perhaps known best for their striking eyes - the result of their vertically aligned pupils and faintly colored irises. It is also not uncommon for their eyes to be disparately colored from birth, a trait considered auspicious amongst their kind. The Seekers are widely regarded as quick-witted and prone to action, and many exhibit a tendency to bore easily.

Vavaki Wrote:The Seekers of the Sun are a true miracle of evolution at work. Though lean and flexible, they possess immense strength and stamina, and excel at near any physical actâ”€be it bounding amongst the treetops or swimming in rough waters.

Above all that, their powers of expression are also second to none. Yes, Seekers of the Sun make fine study specimensâ”€fine study specimens indeed. Still, it is the males of the race which remain a near complete mystery. An effective medicine requires detailed study of both the male and female of a species, but male Miqo'te are simply nowhere to be found. Rumors say that some reside right here in Ul'dah, but they must avoid people like the bloody plague, because I've yet to set eyes on a single one!

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:Roughly a head shorter and smaller of body than the average Hyur, the Seekers are blessed with a wiry strength, surpassing agility, and the stamina to run for hours under the blazing sun - a combination of traits that makes them uncommonly suited to hunting in arid climes. As many Seekers are adept at climbing and diving, they also make for excellent sailors. Among their most striking physical features are their eyes, with their narrow, vertically-aligned pupils and faintly colored irises.

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:The Seekers of the Sun are a highly patriarchal culture, with each tribe centered around a strong breeding male (nunh) whose duty it is to form a harem and lead his people to glory and prosperity. Young males are born and raised as "tia", and must either assume the position of nunh by challenging and defeating an existing nunh in single combat, or leave the community to find a harem of his own. In particularly large tribes, multiple nunh may coexist in the same community, though such cases are rare.

Fernehalwes Wrote:When the Seekers of the Sun came to Eorzea from their homelands, there were only 26 tribes. Since that time, there have been some males who, instead of defeating their tribe's nunh and becoming a breeding male by normal means, opt to leave the tribe and form their own. However, it is rare for female Seekers of the Sun to follow these males, so these newly formed tribes almost always die out.

This does not mean that it doesn't happen.
If a male leaves to form his own tribe, he will replace the letter from his original tribe (for example, the "Y" in Y'shtola) with a new one. Since the 26 letters of the Eorzean alphabet are already taken, the new tribal prefix will be often be two letters (Ma -> Ma'shtola) which are of the tribe-forming male's choosing (and all people in his tribe will use that same prefix).

His last name will be Nunh, as he is now the new breeding male (as designated by himself) of his new tribe.

While not impossible (people can do what they want with their names), a Seeker of the Sun choosing his mother's name to be his last, would amount to shunning his culture and adopting the rules of the Keepers of the Moon. There will be some Seekers of the Sun who will respect this, but others who frown upon it.

There are tia within the 26 existing tribes who, instead of defeating an existing nunh, prove their worth to the tribe by extending its hunting grounds. These tia will venture out into the world and claim territory of their own (by either finding somewhere unoccupied, or taking an area by force from another tribe). If they can maintain it for an extended period of time, then they become the nunh of that area, while still remaining a member of their original tribe.

This actually happens quite often. And is far more accepted than merely leaving the tribe to make one's own (which, ultimately makes that person an outcast). This is why you will almost never see Seekers of the Sun with tribal letters beyond the original 26 (like the Ma'shtola I mentioned earlier). There are simply not that many, and those that do exist, rarely admit it, for fear of ostracism.

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Drake Tribe Lore

U'khuba Tia Wrote:The law is clearâ”€to become the nunh of the U tribe, one must defeat the current nunh. In my case, this means U'odh Nunh. However, in order to win the right to challenge U'odh, I must first triumph over U'tykha. He stands in my way, and I in his. In this manner the nunh is protected from constant challenge. But to defeat U'tykha, my arms must be impeccable; a fool he may be, but weak he is not. I shall make new arrowheads, and for that I need barbs from a yarzon.

U'odh Nunh Wrote:That was naught more than a display of brrrute force and blind courage. The nunh I once fought also believed that his strrrength would save him. He was wrong, and now I am nunh. Many years ago, I joined the Company of Heroes to hone my skills, instead of challenging my predecessor before I was ready. Even when I was young, I understood that victorrry goes to the patient, the cunning, the pragmatic. That is why I claimed my position, and it is why I still hold it. And it is why I will not help an unprrroven whelp.

U'odh Nunh Wrote:The Children of the Sands do not offer aid to strangers. To do so is a sign of weakness. However, if you were rrrecognized as a skilled hunter in your own right, it would be permissible to assist you. A child who wishes to become a hunterrr must collect the blood of seven sundrakes. You are not a child, so you may find this to be easy. But you are not of the U tribe, so perhaps not.

U'kahzuna Wrote:I am fortunate to have both U'khuba and U'tykha watching over me. We are a tribe, and what I take from others I wish to give back someday. That is what I train for nowâ”€not to win praise or escape rebuke. Different though they may be, either U'tykha or U'khuba would make a worthy nunh.

U'tykha Tia Wrote:You have found U'kahzuna well, you say? And she's become an archer!? Why, that's brilliant! I can't believe I didn't think of it myself. And those yarzon barb arrowheads! U'khuba spent hours shaping those. Well, well... I hate to admit it, but he is a better man than I gave him credit for. Still, he shall receive no quarter from me. I intend to lead this tribe, and it will be all the easier to beat him bloody if I keep my dislike of him intact.

Survey Says Journal Wrote:As the time of the Choosing draws ever nearer, U'khuba Tia does not favor the notion that U'tykha Tia is seen by many as the next chief of the U tribe. He bids you speak with immigrants, and discover their hopes for Forgotten Springs.

U'khuba Tia Wrote:I wouldn't spend too much time with U'tykha, adventurer. His strain of foolish cheer can be catching, and I've found it wise to never become too happy. Happiness begets complacency, and it's only through discontentment that one rises to become more. This brings us to the issue of which one of us will next lead our tribe. Unlike U'tykha, the matter of who becomes the next nunh is one I take most seriously. Each of us represents a distinct vision for what lies ahead.

You see, I am fascinated with the future. We cannot create itâ”€but we can be prepared for it. We can profit from it. Or we can perish by it. I need you to speak with immigrants, for they see Forgotten Springs through the eyes of opportunity, not loyalty. All the voices cry out for Forgotten Springs to open its gates. If our tribe is to prosper, we must enjoy the coin and protection of immigrants and outlanders. When I am nunh, the old ways will have to give way to the new.

Riridesu Wrote:<sigh> I was all set to open a shop in Forgotten Springs. Would've been glorious. An amazing location. A string of customers lined up. A bevy of beauties about. But the nunh of the tribe, U'odh Nunh, up and forbade it. Just like that. Now, in a way, I understand it. The U kill or gather most of their own food, so they don't need what I'm offering. But surely, the nunh has to see there's more to his oasis than his own tribe. Prospectors, adventurers, Flames...we just don't live or eat as they do!

Odinel Wrote:A package! Came from the Minotaur Malm, did you? Thank you most kindly. The Malm's a poky kind of placeâ”€small as the dickens, and all manner of isolated to boot. Makes it tough to get up there and give Riridesu the custom he's due. Right shame about the nunh's decision. A store in the Springs would have been a kindness. It's just a crying shame. And the worst part is there's no changing that old Miqo'te's mindâ”€mostly on account of the fact he hasn't one.

Arenvald Wrote:You are familiar with the U, perhaps? A tribe of fearsome hunters and huntresses, I am convinced that they would prove invaluable allies in the battle against the Amalj'aa, if only they could be won over. The U respect strength above allâ”€I fear they'd sooner gut me than listen to my tale. But you... If you spoke, they would listenâ”€I am certain of it. And so I ask, friend: travel to Forgotten Springs and speak to U'odh Nunh in my stead.

U'odh Nunh Wrote:The word of the nunh is law. Those who turn a deaf ear to the nunh, they will no longer have ears. I could order my tribe to fight for youâ”€that would be good for you, yes. But would it be good for the U? That is my question. You have proven yourself to me, but to many of the U, you are just another outsider. If you would earn their trrrust, you will do it yourself. Speak to my tribeswomen, and hear with your own ears how they feel about you. I am firrrst and foremost nunh to my people, and their needs concern me more than yours.

U'odh Nunh Wrote:I am told that some of my tribeswomen have been ambushed and captured by the lizardmen. If the rumors are true, they bear grave wounds. The U are no strangers to deathâ”€but to die without a fair fight? That is no way for an U to die. I ask you not to rescue themâ”€if they are truly U, their pride will not allow it. Ease their wounds with this salve, and they will take care of themselves.

U'napa Wrote:No escort will be necessary. I am a hunter of the U tribeâ”€if I cannot cross the sands alone, I do not deserve to return at all.

Cool-eyed Huntress Wrote:U'loonh? Of course I knew herâ”€she was my blood sister. We were both daughters of the former nunh, though our mothers were not the same.

Fibubb Gah Wrote:It is said that the arms of the U tribe are passed down from one generation to the nextâ”€that these weapons are revered as highly as the teachings of their ancestors. Though we of the Brotherhood follow a different path, it is anathema to us that the honor of the Miqo'te should be so spat upon. Yes, the weapons of the Miqo'te are distinct from any the Amalj'aa would craft. I will return these treasures to their Forgotten Springs heirs, and salvage some measure of honor for my people.

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Marmot Tribe Lore (Possible 4.0 Spoilers)

M'rahz Nunh Wrote:The fires of war spread across Gyr Abania, and soon we ourselves may be forced to enter the fray. Should it come to pass, then it will fall to me to guide my people through the flames, for I have the rare and unfortunate honor to serve not only as nunh, but as leader of my people.

M'zalikko Wrote:Our father, M'rahz Nunh, is leader of the M tribe. He's likely one of the few males you'll ever see among us. They stay only to challenge him in a bid to claim his title of nunh. Those who fail remain as tia, or leave and attempt to create tribes of their own. Under normal circumstances, there can only be one nunh in our tribe, you see. Although there was a time our lands were vast, and two nunhs led our people.

Thanks to you and yours driving the Garleans out of Castellum Velodyna, we can finally start getting things back to the way they were. In the darker days of their occupation, it was M'rahz Nunh who inspired us, who gave us the strength to live. We owe him our lives, and we'll gladly give them to defend him and our home. I doubt there has ever been a nunh before him so loved by his people.

M'zamqo Wrote:We're all equal in the eyes of M'rahz Nunh. His fair-mindedness is part of what makes him so well loved among our people.

M'rahz Nunh Wrote:In recent days, a young Seeker of the Sun has seen fit to issue me several challenges to combat. I can only assume he means to assume the role of nunh and leader of our people. Tradition dictates the strongest among us must take the position, so I gladly face any who believe they are fit to lead. The problem, however, is this challenger is decidedly weak. Yet no matter how many times I put him down, he refuses to concede.

His invitations to duel were a mild annoyance at first, but I've come to find his single-minded determination to be intriguing. In fact, I was hoping you would consider training him. I realize how absurd it sounds to help my rival-to-be, but I am curious of his potential. There was a time when I was the weakest of the males in the M tribe. It wasn't easy, but through rigorous training, I eventually grew to become the man you see before you. I see much of myself in that young Miqo'te. Our tribe could stand to have more like him.

M'rahz Nunh Wrote:There was a time when the M tribe was led by two Nunhs. In the common tongue it is often interpreted as chief of the tribe, but first and foremost we are a father to our people. When our hunting grounds are vast and children many, it is sometimes necessary to have a second nunh as we once did. After the Garleans invaded, however, our lands diminished as did our numbers. We agreed only a single nunh was needed.

Under normal circumstances, we would do battle, the loser abdicating their title. But his father relinquished it willingly, and left with him from the Peering Stones. We never heard from him again. M'zhet, son of M'aht. After all these years he returns. But why would his father leave him to survive on his own? His spirit burns bright as ever, but he will need more than spirit if he wishes to lead.

M'rahz Tia Wrote:A terrible tale told to me by the Vira. Twenty years ago, a miqo'te of the M tribe traveling with child happened upon their people. He claimed to be a nunh who relinquished his title to avoid creating discord within the tribe. Though no longer one of them, he planned to watch over them from afar. One fateful day, the local wildlife were afflicted with a strange illness that drove them into a frenzy. It was as if they were possessed, forming a monstrous herd storming toward the Peering Stones. He could not stand idly by and watch his former home be destroyed. And so he chose to face the beasts alone, leaving his child in the Ananta's care.

One after another the beasts fell as he drove them into a nearby cavern. Yet he would not escape unscathed, for one of the creatures struck him with poison that would soon turn him to stone. His limbs growing stiff, he used the last of his strength to collapse the cave entrance. The remaining crevice that would have allowed their escape was blocked by his cold, petrified flesh. That man was M'aht, your father.

There are those who called him a coward for leaving, but in truth he was the bravest among us. Be strong, M'zhet. You are your father's son, and one day you shall make a great nunh. We are men of the M tribe, it is only natural that we might quarrel in one way or another. Now that you know the truth, what will you do now?

M'zhet Tia Wrote:If you would have me, I wish to rejoin the M tribe. As a tia. By his blade, I swear it.

M'rahz Nunh Wrote:Very well. I welcome you once more as M'zhet Tia of the M tribe. Train hard, young one, and become the man I know your father believed you could be. I would also hold a memorial service to honor your father's sacrifice. We do not have his remains, but I pray his soul will at last be at peace. Words fail to express my gratitude, adventurer. He will make a fine nunh someday. When his time comes, I hope you will offer him support again as you did this day.

Hope this helps! ^^
edit: oop, valence beat me to it. (though, mole tribe is O', the M' tribe in Gyr Abania is marmot)

X'shah Zinbhe · **09-24-2017, 01:23 AM**

Sounsyy is excellent at touching on the official lore aspect. I will leave that to them! Here's my insight after role-playing for years and what I have seen and noticed.

I've seen lots of great ideas brought forth by players who think up their own process for their little group of tribals. There's Dodo I know of that have a sort of "Nunh Olympics" where the greatest athlete is given the responsibility of coupling with women who wish it until the next event. I thought that was pretty neat!

In the case of the sept that my character leads anyone who wishes to challenge for the position will require the approval of the women, without question. They aren't going to put up with some stranger walking in and simply winning the spot by brute force, although exceptional strength is important.

They will laugh at any man who attempts to challenge who cannot demonstrate the following:

Resources to help raise the children.
Attentiveness to the needs of the women.
Excellent time and resource management skills.

In short, someone who would prove to be a good father figure (even if the woman decides he will have a distant relationship with the child) and will not stretch themselves too thin. Someone who isn't selfish and puts the needs of the group over his own and willing to train someone to act as a second if and when the group becomes too large for him to handle on his own. Someone who the women already know and find reliable.

Keep in mind this is a sept that highly values martial excellence. They aren't just savage warriors after all. Hope that makes sense and offered some form of insight.

Challenging a Nunh

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