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LilithLarkspur · **07-15-2015, 04:23 PM**

Hello everyone! A pleasure to meet all of you, I've been a long time XIVRPer, just haven't really made my way into the forums until now.

Anyway, the purpose of this post is to inquire/group together the lore and information we have available in regard to how the class and social structure is in Ishgard. There are going to be a lot of people interested in RPing a character either a current or ex-citizen of Ishgard and this kind of information is critical for backstories/social interaction. I've used the search function here, and in Google and haven't turned up with much, so here's my first post!

1) We know there 4 high houses that make up the core nobility of Ishgard, and the surnames of these houses carry massive weight in every facet of Ishgard. How extended are these homes? Aside from main family members, what other lower tier occupations/positions are available within these houses for players to write their characters into? (Servants, chefs, etc)

2) Furthermore, how big are these noble houses? Is there just a handful of blood lineage, or has the family grown to the point where is it possible to say your character is in some way a way-down-the-line relative of "X" house without coming off as too pretentious? (ex. A great great grandson/cousin of so-and-so)

3) Upon initially arriving in Ishgard, it immediately noticed there is a very impoverished social class referred to as "baseborn". What details do we know about this, and is it possible to escape this social class through hard work/achievement?

4) In between the baseborn and the four noble houses, what middle class, if any, exists in Ishgard. Is it possible to, for the purpose of backstory, create your own middle/upper class Ishgardian family (below the four core houses, of course) and still fall believably within the lore?

5) Finally, what does social interaction between social classes look like? It is obvious from some of the first quests in Ishgard that the typical intolerance towards the impoverished exists, but how severe is this? Where do non-noble, but financially successful/working class fit into the equation.Â

Thanks for taking the time to read/discuss these questions. I'm sure I'm not the only one trying to write their character (and family tree) into the Ishgard lore while staying within the lore, so let's get the information rolling in!

Virella · **07-15-2015, 04:26 PM**

First of all, I think you should point out how far you've managed to go trough the MQS Smile

! I can give answers to your questions, however they would be rather spoilery!

LilithLarkspur · **07-15-2015, 05:52 PM**

I've gotten just past the end of the 2.0 Storyline, so I'm sure I will find out a -lot- more about the city as I finish some more quests (if I can pry myself away from DRK) but I was also thinking about all of those players out there who may be really far away from getting into Ishgard, the answers to these questions could be very helpful to them starting their RP while they work on the MSQ. I would think you might be safe to answer at least a few of the questions without having to admit too many story-shattering spoilers, but then again I know how Square Enix is haha.

Zelmanov · **07-16-2015, 12:05 AM**

I shall attempt to answer to the best of my ability without spoilers

1) Through the MSQ and sidequests you find that House Fortemps has a butler/retainer, they have the manpower to host a banquet between all four houses, and as such implies the sort extended service fitting for a typical medieval family of wealth. As long as you do not write yourself in as the Head chef, or primary butler or something of equally high importance (I'd even hazard away from things like wetnurse!) you should be fine.

2) This is relatively unknown. Â House Fortemps (again our only most direct means of interaction) shows that Edgemont de Fortemps has 3 sons but no indication of him having brothers, cousins or the like. So the actual size of the CURRENT houses is unknown and I would not personally claim to be anywhere even CLOSE to being related to them in name.

4) I want to answer this before answering 3. The DRK questline makes you come across someone with the surname "De Caulignont" this, combined with other quest text confirms the existence of noble houses of lesser power. So yes making up a house and claiming to be a highborne should be of little issue. Orrin, my character, is one!Â

3) You mean the lowborne and the lowborne constitute everyone else. It is possible to escape the squalor through 2 ways which were also typical in medieval human history: The clergy and war. The convictory in western coerthas is filled with disgraced nobility and lowborne seeking to kill a dragon for honor and upward mobility.Â

5) This highly varies, the lowborne are generally bitter and angry at the highborne and being a highborne in full regalia in the Brume is asking for trouble. However how the nobility treat the lowborne can be quite the opposite, while there are disdainful nobles, there are also those like Haurchefant which are pretty saintly in their treatment of those under his station.

Also it seems the lines are blurred when it comes to the people out in the field as opposed to those safely behind the walls of Ishgard. It seems nobles and lowbornes alike quickly learn to get along for they will not last long against the dragons they face otherwise

Sounsyy · **07-16-2015, 09:05 AM**

I'm going to be echoing a lot of what Zelmanov already said.

(07-15-2015, 04:23 PM)LilithLarkspur Wrote: 1) We know there 4 high houses that make up the core nobility of Ishgard, and the surnames of these houses carry massive weight in every facet of Ishgard. How extended are these homes? Aside from main family members, what other lower tier occupations/positions are available within these houses for players to write their characters into? (Servants, chefs, etc)

There are four High Noble Houses (Fortemps, Durendaire, Haillenarte, and Dzemael), each with fluctuating respect and social standing. For example, House Haillenarte recently lost control of Stone Vigil to the Horde and has lost a lot of respect. These houses seem quite expansive and include man-servants, tutors, retainers, butlers, etc. Though not all of these workers are of the particular House. Some employ lowborns or members of other households.

House Fortemps Steward Wrote:Me? Why, I am but a humble steward sworn to House Fortemps. I doubt you wish to hear the minutiae of my duties. Simply put, at the behest of my lord the count, I manage household affairs. I have served at his pleasure for more than fifty years, and by the Fury's grace, I shall serve for fifty more.

House Fortemps Steward Wrote:As for those sworn to House Fortemps... In addition to the knights, squires, and infantry, more than a hundred craftsmen, retainers, and other servants possessed of notable skill are pledged to our service. Given our strong position, one might expect us to have no truck with foreign merchants and sellswords. However, nothing could be further from the truth. I should think that my lord the count was quite clear on this point, but it was our hope that you and your allies would, by your deeds, help us to convince the other High Houses of the wisdom of opening the Gates of Judgement to all - among other things.

(07-15-2015, 04:23 PM)LilithLarkspur Wrote: 2) Furthermore, how big are these noble houses? Is there just a handful of blood lineage, or has the family grown to the point where is it possible to say your character is in some way a way-down-the-line relative of "X" house without coming off as too pretentious?

Avoiding going into major 3.0 spoilers... yes, technically, you could say your character is a distant relation to one of these Houses. However, I would caution against saying your character is of a direct familial line to one of the High Noble Houses, as each House does have some specific children that are accounted for in lore. (And it seems only direct descendants are in line for succession in any case.)

Also, each High House has duties beyond the walls of Ishgard. For instance, Fortemps is responsible for Camp Dragonhead. Haillenarte was responsible for Stone Vigil. Dzemael for the Darkhold. Durendaire once held the western front with Dusk Vigil.

House Fortemps is ruled by Count Edmont de Fortemps, who has three sons, Haurchefant, Artoirel, and Emmanellain. The latter two are currently vying for succession.

Not as much is known about the other three houses, but we know that House Haillenarte once had at least three sons as well:

Quote:Naul
Ah, yes. You know how Ishgard is about dragons. The Holy See managed to get Naul and a few other dragons on to the elite mark list. A favor to be repaid in kind, I'm sure. The dragons Naul and Svara are best known for their attack on the Steel Vigil, which left the fortress a smoking ruin. Notable casualties include the third son of House Haillenarte...

Of the House Durendaire line, I believe Lord Drillemont is the only surviving son? EDIT: Found the Count de Durendaire's second son: Jannequinard de Durendaire, the AST NPC.

Ser Yuhelmeric Brillelame was the Lord Commander of the House Durendaire Knights, but shortly after the Calamity was disgraced under suspicion of heresy. Though close with the Durendaire family, he was not of direct lineage.

Jandelaine and Guillefresne are also both credited with being heirs to the Dzemael House. Though I seem to recall them referring to their relation with Dzemael to be an off-shoot? Perhaps caused by being half siblings or cousins to the main Dzemael line, or not being directly descendant from Sylvetrel de Dzemael.

(07-15-2015, 04:23 PM)LilithLarkspur Wrote: 3) Upon initially arriving in Ishgard, it immediately noticed there is a very impoverished social class referred to as "baseborn". What details do we know about this, and is it possible to escape this social class through hard work/achievement?

There are Highborns (Nobles) and Lowborn (Brumeborn, baseborn, etc), with little to no evidence of a "middle class."

The Better Half Wrote:The Forgotten Knight serves two very different classes of customer: the relatively affluent knights and merchants who frequent the upper floor, and the lowborn residents of the Brume who prefer the more affordable fare served downstairs. It would seem the stark division between these two clienteles reflects the divisions beyond the tavern's wallsâ”€as the differing experiences of the high and lowborn during the recent wyvern attack make plain. While the Pillars' defenses were fortified, the Brume and its residents were left to bear the brunt of the Dravanians' fury. A troubling thought indeed...

Ishgardian Nobility, outside of High Nobility - which is strictly familial, does work upon a meritocratic system. Meaning that a Lowborn can feasibly achieve higher social status by doing something truly... noble. For example, Ser Aymeric, Lord Commander of the Temple Knights was lowborn, but rose to his station.

Dominiac Wrote:The only way to gain the power of nobility is through a truly noble display of courage. There's one simple way to do that - slay a monstrous, ancient dragon. There are some feats that cannot be ignored.

(07-15-2015, 04:23 PM)LilithLarkspur Wrote: 4) In between the baseborn and the four noble houses, what middle class, if any, exists in Ishgard. Is it possible to, for the purpose of backstory, create your own middle/upper class Ishgardian family (below the four core houses, of course) and still fall believably within the lore?

There is no middle class, however, there are Noble Houses that are not the Four High Noble Houses. There are a great many Noble Houses in Ishgard, and these are those Lowborns who have risen above their station or were just more well off than their fellow man. We do have several Noble Houses in lore: Brillelame, Rougecarpe, Valentione, Dartancours, etc...

But feel free to make your own. These people are still considered Upper class citizens though.

(07-15-2015, 04:23 PM)LilithLarkspur Wrote: 5) Finally, what does social interaction between social classes look like? It is obvious from some of the first quests in Ishgard that the typical intolerance towards the impoverished exists, but how severe is this? Where do non-noble, but financially successful/working class fit into the equation.

There is definitely an extreme disconnect between Highborn and Lowborn in Ishgard. There's quite a bit of animosity, resentment, or plain out disgust that's evident from talking to various NPCs around Ishgard or from doing the first few 3.0 MSQs.

Gibrillont Wrote:Upstairs, you're like to find more well-to-do regulars mingling with travelers. Downstairs, well, that's where you'll find the locals. Right or wrong, people have a habit of sticking with their own, and Ishgardians are no different.

Goldin Wrote:Thought to take a stroll through the Brume and remind yourself how good you've got it? I swear, you people...

Segaulyon Wrote:I can hardly believe it! House Fortemps granting patronage to a common sellsword? Well, should I chance to meet this ragamuffin, I will say to her good day!

However, this is the majority, not the views of all. Some of the Noble Houses are kind to the lowborns. Some lowborns are allowed to marry into noble families. Also, those who become Knights or Dragoons often cast aside the differences of stature so that they have the best chance of survival.

Ishgardian elitism seems most prevalent inside the walls of Ishgard or in civilized forts ruled by the High Houses like Durendaire or Fortemps. In the wildnerness, prestige seems to count for little. Though High Noble-born are often treated with far more respect/caution then most it seems.

Hope this all helps! ^^

myahele · **07-16-2015, 02:59 PM**

I'm quite interested in where humans fit in their social structure?

I somehow doubt they're granted noble status beyond a Knight or notable merchants.

From what I gather it's the

4 great houses > minor houses > Knights/Merchants >>>> Low Born

Sounsyy · **07-16-2015, 03:39 PM**

(07-16-2015, 02:59 PM)myahele Wrote: I'm quite interested in where humans fit in their social structure?

I somehow doubt they're granted noble status beyond a Knight or notable merchants.

From what I gather it's the

4 great houses > minor houses > Knights/Merchants >>>> Low Born

None of the Four High Houses are Hyuran, due to Ishgard being formed prior to the Hyuran migration to Eorzea. What followed that initial wave was long standing race wars between the Elezen and Hyur, which stretched across eastern Eorzea from Ala Mhigo and Ishgard in the north to as far south as Thanalan. There was not peace between the two races until 500 years ago with the last wave of Hyur who were accepted by the Gelmorrans, later forming Gridania. The twin adders on the Gridanian standard symbolize Elezen and Hyur coming together around a lotus - a symbol of peace.

So Hyur coming to Ishgard would have only happened in the last 500 years, a relatively short time considering how long Ishgard had already been established by this point in history. (Over 700 years.) This late arrival and lingering racial tension is the most likely culprit as to why Hyuran make up a good majority of the lowborn or knights serving the greater houses. It is possible, however, through one's own merit to rise above their station, so I would not at all be surprised to see Hyuran Noble Houses, even though as of yet, we've not seen any in lore.

We have seen Hyuran Dragoons, an elite force in Ishgard and of high social ranking. We also have a Hyuran second in command to the Temple Knights, another highly prestigious honor. So if a Hyur could achieve that, I'm sure they could achieve Nobility. Just less likely to be born into it.

As for the hierarchy, it's closer to:

>Archbishop - A direct descendant of Thordan or one of the 4 High Houses
>>The Heavens' Ward - Twelve knights hand-selected by the Archbishop
>>>Four High Houses
>>>>The Halonic Inquisition
>>>>>The Azure Dragoon & Temple Knights
>>>>>Other Noble Houses
>>>>>>Dragoons
>>>>>>>Servants and Knights of the Nobles
>>>>>>>>>>>>Lowborns & Foreigners

Aya · **07-16-2015, 03:43 PM**

(07-16-2015, 09:05 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: There are Highborns (Nobles) and Lowborn (Brumeborn, baseborn, etc), with little to no evidence of a "middle class."

A middle caste, perhaps?Â I think there is evidence for the middle class in the form of workshops, traders, and merchants who appear on the Pillars level without appearing to be nobles Smile

LilithLarkspur · **07-16-2015, 08:08 PM**

Wow, my sincerest thanksÂ for the massive lore drop. This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

(07-16-2015, 09:05 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: There is no middle class, however, there are Noble Houses that are not the Four High Noble Houses. There are a great many Noble Houses in Ishgard, and these are those Lowborns who have risen above their station or were just more well off than their fellow man. We do have several Noble Houses in lore: Brillelame, Rougecarpe, Valentione, Dartancours, etc...

But feel free to make your own. These people are still considered Upper class citizens though.Â

Perfect, this is exactly the kind of information I needed. Essentially I'm creating a (now defunct) family that falls into this upper caste you just talked about. That was until the head of the family fled Ishgard with Lilith due to the mother's condemnation as a Heretic for practicing dark arts.

The father's decision was based on the fear that if the mother was executed for her practice, him and my character would be next on the gallows (or, at the bottom of Witchdrop.) Is that a lore fitting assumption? Early in theÂ story quests you hear a knight threaten to extend punishment to a Lowborn's family if she continued to be defiant. Is this behavior typical, or was that knight out of line?

Sigil.9054 · **07-16-2015, 08:23 PM**

Don't really know anything about the Social Class stuff. Just dropping in to say, "Hello and welcome".

Hello and Welcome!

V'aleera · **07-16-2015, 08:32 PM**

Regardless of formal recognition of such, there is almost always a middle class in any successful society. Within the specific context of Ishgardian society the middle class would likely consist of lower-rung highborn and well-to-do lowborn.

Sounsyy · **07-16-2015, 08:52 PM**

(07-16-2015, 08:08 PM)LilithLarkspur Wrote: Is that a lore fitting assumption? Early in theÂ story quests you hear a knight threaten to extend punishment to a Lowborn's family if she continued to be defiant. Is this behavior typical, or was that knight out of line?

Yes, actually. On more than one occasion it comes up in lore that the Halonic Inquisition goes a bit... above and beyond... in the pursuit of heretics.

Wealdtheow Wrote:At last, it is ours once more... My parents presented this sapphire to me on my wedding day, as my wife and I presented it to Yuhelmeric on his. One day, they would do the same for their son... But for that disgrace of an inquisitor! Suspicion of heresy, what rot! He knew what he wanted from the start.

...By the time I secured her release, they had interrogated her for days. She...she was a shadow of her former self. But the final insultâ”€the final twisting of the knifeâ”€was when my son took command at the Dusk Vigil and found the ice rondel to be the centerpiece of the newly commissioned sculpture of the Fury. He couldn't prove it was the selfsame one which had vanished, but, oh, he knew... But no more, no more! It is back with the family, where it belongs.

This is but one good example.

McBeefâ„¢ · **07-16-2015, 09:15 PM**

Yeah contrary to my initial thought of how Ishgard would be, it seems less Imperium of Man and more Tale of Two Cities.

The common people seem don't seem to share the same ardor as the church, and neither do the high houses.

I keep thinking that it would be a good setting for an assasin's creed game.

Fox · **07-16-2015, 09:20 PM**

(07-16-2015, 03:43 PM)Aya Wrote:
(07-16-2015, 09:05 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: There are Highborns (Nobles) and Lowborn (Brumeborn, baseborn, etc), with little to no evidence of a "middle class."
A middle caste, perhaps?Â I think there is evidence for the middle class in the form of workshops, traders, and merchants who appear on the Pillars level without appearing to be nobles

I would tend to think that there would be a merchant class somewhere within Sounsyy's thoughts of hierarchy. Looking at medieval and other time periods that are similar to Ishgard's mentally I think there would be a merchant class somewhere.

[Image: 1739906.jpg?317]

http://medievaljapan101paigeb.weebly.com...urope.html
http://geocitiessites.com/historymech/rew1medieval.html

Aya · **07-16-2015, 09:22 PM**

(07-16-2015, 09:15 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Yeah contrary to my initial thought of how Ishgard would be, it seems less Imperium of Man and more Tale of Two Cities.

The common people seem don't seem to share the same ardor as the church, and neither do the high houses.

I keep thinking that it would be a good setting for an assasin's creed game.

It reminds me of the Thief setting.Â All we need now are the Hammerites.

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Ishgard's Social/Class Structure

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes